More About Giving Drivers Licenses To Illegal Immigrants

[DOC22 1]

The Following article was on lohud.com this morning. The Author is Devlin Barrett of The Associated Press.

Homeland Security strikes deal with New York on driver's licenses

By DEVLIN BARRETT

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

(Original publication: October 28, 2007)

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration and New York state cut a deal yesterday to create a new generation of super-secure driver's licenses for U.S. citizens, but also allow illegal immigrants to get a version.

New York is the fourth state to reach such an agreement on federally approved secure licenses, after Arizona, Vermont and Washington. The issue is pressing for border states, where new and tighter rules are soon to go into effect for crossings.

The deal comes about one month after New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer announced a plan for illegal immigrants with a valid foreign passport to obtain a license.

Yesterday's agreement with the Homeland Security Department will create a three-tier license system in New York. It is the largest state to sign on to the government's post-Sept. 11 effort to make identification cards more secure.

Spitzer, who has faced much criticism on the issue, said the deal means New York "will usher in the most secure licensing system in the nation."

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he was not happy that New York had intended to issue IDs to illegal immigrants. But he said there was nothing he could do to stop it.

"I don't endorse giving licenses to people who are not here legally, but federal law does allow states to make that choice," Chertoff said.

"It's going to be a big deal up in Buffalo, it's going to be a big deal on the Canadian side of the border," Chertoff said.

The governor made clear he is going forward with his plan allowing licenses for illegal immigrants. But advocates on both sides of the debate said Spitzer had caved to pressure by adopting the administration's stance on tighter security standards for most driver's licenses.

GOP Rep. Thomas Reynolds, who represents the Buffalo suburbs, said he was glad Washington had heeded his concerns about border identification. But he said he feared that Spitzer "is taking this state down a risky path" by giving any kind of license to illegal immigrants.

Under the compromise, New York will produce an "enhanced driver's license" that will be as secure as a passport. It is intended for people who soon will need to meet such ID requirements, even for a short drive to Canada.

A second version of the license will meet new federal standards of the Real ID Act. That law is designed to make it much harder for illegal immigrants or would-be terrorists to obtain licenses.

A third type of license will be available to undocumented immigrants. Spitzer has said this ID will make the state more secure by bringing those people "out of the shadows" and into American society, and will lower auto insurance rates.

Those licenses will be clearly marked to show they are not valid federal ID. Officials, however, would not say whether that meant local law enforcement could use such a license as probable cause to detain someone they suspected of being in the U.S. illegally.

"Besides being a massive defeat for the governor, I can't imagine many - if any - illegal immigrants coming forward to get the driver's licenses, because they'd basically be labeled as illegal," said New York Rep. Peter King, the top Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee.

New York has between 500,000 and 1 million undocumented immigrants. Many of them are driving without a license and car insurance or with fake licenses, Spitzer said in September when he announced his executive order.

The administration has not finalized standards for Real ID-compliant driver's licenses. Spitzer said he believed the new licenses would meet those standards or come very close.

Many other states have said it is too expensive to comply with the law; seven of them have passed legislation opposing Real ID. Neither the governor nor Chertoff would say how much it would cost to put the system in place or who would pay for it.

Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties, said Spitzer's move effectively revives a faltering ID program. "The governor's stunning lack of courage is aiding the Bush administration in clamping down on civil liberties," Lieberman said.

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...EWS01/710280331

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I'm glad to see that the Governor has put aside all the "unimportant" issues plaguing this state. And went immediatly to the rescue of people that shouldn't even be here in the first place.

It's a shame when the head of state government is trying to aid people who have broken federal law in entering the country, while so many others wait to do it properly. I wonder when the next proposal will come up where we can each pick and choose the laws we agree with, and are willing to adhear to, and those that we choose not to.

[x635 4,066]

You know what, people should just remember that they were LUCKY they were born in the United States, and not in some third or fourth world country. This country is based on people coming here for a better life. These people risk their lives to do just that.

I agree, there are many issues and sides to this problem, but it's also our goverment's fault too. Who are we to sit and judge? Have people forgotten that we, as a country, used to hate the "illegal" Irish and Italians in the early 1900's. But, I guess living our relatively lavish lifestyles and ability to be a citizen in a free country, thanks to our ancestors, gives us the right to judge others. It's a shame. Maybe if we pumped billions of dollars into their countries economy, instead of Iraq, they wouldn't need to come here.

If the illegal immigrants (AKA human beings) had drivers license, that wouldn't change much. I don't think too many would get licenses, and there are already numerous that drive without or with fake licenses.

They came here for several centuries for the same reasons – freedom and hope -- and then a Frenchman created a statue that embodied their hopes and dreams. And it embodied America's promise as well. "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."

THE STATUE OF LIBERTY

[ex-commish 490]

You know what, people should just remember that they were LUCKY they were born in the United States, and not in some third or fourth world country. This country is based on people coming here for a better life. These people risk their lives to do just that.

I agree, there are many issues and sides to this problem, but it's also our goverment's fault too. Who are we to sit and judge? Have people forgotten that we, as a country, used to hate the "illegal" Irish and Italians in the early 1900's. But, I guess living our relatively lavish lifestyles and ability to be a citizen in a free country, thanks to our ancestors, gives us the right to judge others. It's a shame. Maybe if we pumped billions of dollars into their countries economy, instead of Iraq, they wouldn't need to come here.

If the illegal immigrants (AKA human beings) had drivers license, that wouldn't change much. I don't think too many would get licenses, and there are already numerous that drive without or with fake licenses.

As an American of Italian descent I felt compelled to comment on this. My grandparents, aunt, uncles, etc came here through Ellis Island not speaking a word of English. They immedeatly got jobs and learned English because they knew this was an English speaking country. They became citizens legally with no handouts or government assistance. They worked and built a life and obeyed our laws. I have no problems with immigration. Our country was founded on immigration. I have a problem with those who come here and want rights and privleges right away and break the law because they seem to believe they are protected. I had an illegal who was doing time told me he will get deported but will be able to get back in because it is so easy. Something wrong here.

[Guest]

X635, that is the most ridiculous outlandish statement I have ever heard. Maybe you can explain why the politicians even pay attention to these illegals, seeing as how they are not (yet at least) capable of voting. Although I can already see that people who think like you will be working on allowing the illegals to gain the right to vote after they get their drivers license.

[Danger 160]

As an American of Italian descent I felt compelled to comment on this. My grandparents, aunt, uncles, etc came here through Ellis Island not speaking a word of English. They immedeatly got jobs and learned English because they knew this was an English speaking country. They became citizens legally with no handouts or government assistance. They worked and built a life and obeyed our laws. I have no problems with immigration. Our country was founded on immigration. I have a problem with those who come here and want rights and privleges right away and break the law because they seem to believe they are protected. I had an illegal who was doing time told me he will get deported but will be able to get back in because it is so easy. Something wrong here.

I agree with this. Yes, everyone hated the Irish and the eye-tal-yans when they first came here. But they learned English, worked hard and quickly became valuable LEGAL citizens. Hell, by the mid century mark, we had a R.C. mick in his 40's as the president for god sakes! I've heard enough excuses for these people, for all people. Grow up, get a job, have some self respect, don't put your hand out, assimilate. Come to this country to become an American, not to use what was built by the blood of our grandfathers. Now let's see how long it takes to get called a racist in this ridiculous PC society.

[x635 4,066]

Everybody's saying what their family did when they got to this country, but it's funny how no one mentions WHY they came to this country????

I agree that illegals are a burden on society, especially in the numbers they come in nowadays, but some of us need to brush up on our real history books.

I know a few illegal immigrants, and they work hard, are very respectful, and have or are trying to learn the english language. One was even a doctor in his home country, but couldn't make enough money to support his family, so he moved here and is working as a busboy-and now his family is provided for. Don't stereotype or prejudice them all.

I'm not saying illegal immigration isn't a problem, it's a MAJOR problem. However, it's OUR goverment that's a large part of it....for failing to properly protect our borders. They're so worried about terrorism and the war in Iraq....you can't take a bottle of water on an airplane.....but these people are coming across the border, and gos knows what some of them are smuggling.

And, even with Ellis Island, there was a LOT of illegal immigration still. The Irish and Italians had a lot of the same problems facing the hispanics, including assimilation. But people would rather think that everything was perfect back then I guess.....we Americans cause a lot of problems ourselves, including throwing judgement and blame all over the place. Don't American's cause problems in our own country too? Ever hear of welfare, or prison?

This is my opinion only as a human being with an open mind living on the same planet as everyone else.

Oh yeah, if you feel so strongly about illegal immigration...don't patronize businesses that hire illegal immigrants or buy products produced by them.

[pjreilly 6]

HFD BRAVO. I could not agree with you more. This country was founded by immigrants... LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Come through the front door, we will welcome you with open arms. Come through the back door and demand your rights and disrespect the country that offers freedom, I DON'T THINK SO. It is about time we shut the door on illegals once and for all. Yes Seth they are humans, but so are the thousands that are doing it the right way. Waiting their turn, not breaking our laws. Thanks to the ACLU, illegal aliens have more rights than any of us that were born in this country. Perhaps we could put a N before ACLU for Non American Civil Liberties Union. Its time to shut the borders and seal the leaks. It will be our pourous borders that will bring the next terrorists (if not already here) to this country. Our priorities have become pretty clouded in this country by special interest groups wanting their fifteen minutes of fame. Perhaps a build up of military on our borders with a shoot to kill order would change the illegals minds about breaking into our country, and breaking our laws.

[x635 4,066]

Here, read up on immigration to the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_t...e_United_States

The immigrants coming from South America isn't a new problem...it's existed since the 1950's.

Let's also not forget that almost every ethnic group that has come into this country has faced prejudice and opposition. And, the slave's didn't come through Ellis Island. Although I love the USA, we're not perfect. We need to stop throwing judgement and blame, and start taking educated actions to implement change.

Perhaps a build up of military on our borders with a shoot to kill order would change the illegals minds about breaking into our country, and breaking our laws.

Shoot to kill? I sincerly hope you're kidding.

Our military is already stretched thin fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, the tax dollars that could be spent on this issue are being pumped into the Middle East, and the laws that need to be changed and made aren't. Politicians are all in it for them and their egos....career politicans, many of them millionares, that have no real interest in the "average American"

Oh yes, you should look at the numbers.....how many children of "illegal immigrants" are now serving in the military?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Maybe if some of you could see past your noses perhaps you could even understand why this is at the forefront and is an important issue. x635..excellent commentary brother. As I've stated in other posts...under federal law they have civil rights. I'm all for giving them driver's licenses. They are driving anyway...the state is still going to require forms of residency requirements and gives an additional data bank to keep track of. Right now that isn't the case..they have licenses from out of state, if at all and when arrested who knows what address. Not to mention the fact that Immigration officials have used DMV records to latch onto illegal aliens. Look at the big picture and think...not just emotion.

[ec255 22]

Do you guys really think giving these criminals ( yes they are humans too) drivers licenses is going to drive down insurance rates? Help us (citizens) in any way? This is absurd- now we have to pay for an outlandishly expensive multi- tier license system because we are voiding our current licenses by giving them to illegals- This is a Federal Immigration law issue and a national security issue- that's it! Forget about all of the sob stories- it's certainly not the fault of the United States that Mexico is a corrupt politcal and economic disaster.

[tunaFish 0]

Do you guys really think giving these criminals ( yes they are humans too) drivers licenses is going to drive down insurance rates? Help us (citizens) in any way? This is absurd- now we have to pay for an outlandishly expensive multi- tier license system because we are voiding our current licenses by giving them to illegals- This is a Federal Immigration law issue and a national security issue- that's it! Forget about all of the sob stories- it's certainly not the fault of the United States that Mexico is a corrupt politcal and economic disaster.

Oh boy.

Live in a foreign country(ies) as I had to as a dependent of U.S. serviceman and see what THAT country does for you. See how little your OWN country can do for you, when you are out of their hands, so to speak.

No one catered to me! Didn't expect :angry: them too!

[ec255 22]

Bottom line is that this is a tremendously complex issue with no easy answers- and X635- you're right- our government failed us many years ago on this issue by not enforcing our borders and now we are paying the piper ( and the tax man)

[Guest partyrock]

The Italian and Irish immigrants who came over through Ellis Island were not illegal immigrants. Right there the comparison between illegals from any country and those immigrants stop. Give them a license. Its not going to change their behavior, but if you give them a reason to join the system then you can track them. They all ready drive cars, give them licenses and let them register their cars and now there's an even greater level of accountability.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

. Oh yes, you should look at the numbers.....how many children of "illegal immigrants" are now serving in the military?

Not enough!!! certainly not enough to justify an open door policy.

[ja3kfd 34]

This whole thing annoys me to no end as I am sure most of the rest of you. My family came through Ellis Island, they built a house in Mt. Kisco, which is still in the family, paid taxes IMMEDIATLEY, went right to work Legally PAYING taxes, They did not get any FREE hand outs, No free Medical Care,Learned to speak ENGLISH, No they did not let the Italian Heritage die.

By the way the House that is still in the Family is a Legal 2 Family house and that is all that is in it. NO over crowding, no secret rooms etc.

It is not only the Goverments Fault, all the Greedy people, Landlords etc. It can be stopped but the allmighty dollar always wins out.

[DOC22 1]

This whole thing annoys me to no end as I am sure most of the rest of you. My family came through Ellis Island, they built a house in Mt. Kisco, which is still in the family, paid taxes IMMEDIATLEY, went right to work Legally PAYING taxes, They did not get any FREE hand outs, No free Medical Care,Learned to speak ENGLISH, No they did not let the Italian Heritage die.

By the way the House that is still in the Family is a Legal 2 Family house and that is all that is in it. NO over crowding, no secret rooms etc.

It is not only the Goverments Fault, all the Greedy people, Landlords etc. It can be stopped but the allmighty dollar always wins out.

Excellent Post, Jim!!!!! These were my thoughts as well, but all the handouts, and the forcing the foreign alnguages on us just ticks me of! I have to stop, cause the PC Police will be knocking on my door.

[x635 4,066]

The Italian and Irish immigrants who came over through Ellis Island were not illegal immigrants. Right there the comparison between illegals from any country and those immigrants stop.

I'm not saying those who came over through Ellis Island were illegals.

However, there were many other ports on the eastern seaboard of the US during the early 1900's, and many stories about stowaways in freighters, etc. Also, there's many immigrants who've written various articles that state that they went to Canada or Mexico, and got in the US that way. Illegal immigration is not a new thing, but right now it's a politcal buzzword. Fact is, the damage is already done and we need to find a way to deal with it and prevent it from continuing to happen.

Here's how illegal immigration has affected me directly. As a teenager, I used to shovel snow in driveways in a wealthy neighborhood. One driveway I shovled, was pretty big, and I charged $40 for it. This was 1996, the year with all the snow....I did good. However, the next year, during the first snowfall, I found my client's driveway shoveled, and two hispanic men shoveling the one next door. For TWO guys, they charged $10 for what I was getting $40 for...they undercut me. Their willingness to do cheap labor has really brought down salaries and standards in many lines of employment.

As for the comment about them not paying taxes, who's fault is that? Surely, some of the blame lies on employers and our goverment again. The worlds largest retailer, Wal-Mart, hired undocumented illegals and didn't pay taxes on their salaries, and so did they landscaper down the street. But I'm sure people will continue to shop at Wal-Mart and other places that employ illegal immigrants.

But, they do work hard. It's my belief that US Citizens have gotten very lazy. The gap between the rich and the poor grows wider every day, and middle class America is becoming a thing of the past in many urban areas. Hispanics do do the job's we don't want (the ones the Italians and Irish used to do, like masonry and carpentry, etc), especially in wealthier areas. More kids are going to college, and less kids are learning and going into trades or to work in factories. And chances are, if you live around here, you can't go to a resturant, car wash, discount store, etc without supporting illegal immigration...because many of these businesses support illegal immigration by giving these guys jobs.

As for communties such as Brewster, downtown Danbury, etc.....I must say that they have destroyed some downtowns. Their living arrangements and the landlords that permit it are a big problem.

I don't feel that all illegal immigrants are refusing to assimilate. They do need to learn the language, and many of them do and try to. But, you think Italians came over here and immediately spoke english? I know some Italian familes where the grandparent's came over via Ellis Island or however and still don't speak or understand a word of english. However, I think bilingual signs, goverment brochures, etc are more to reach out to these people. They shouldn't be enabled to be complacent with only speaking their own language. And, I honestly think many of them want to speak and learn english, but don't have the avenues or tools to do so. If I go to Quebec, do I demand people speak english? No, I try to learn the language and make an attempt to speak it the best I can. However, it can be daunting and confusing.

Also, what about our own citizens that are on welfare, or in our prison system? Aren't they a burden on society too?

It's a VERY grey issue. These people aren't coming here intentionally to destroy our country, they're coming here in hopes of a better life. If our goverment's priorities were truly straight, our borders would be much tighter, and maybe we could provide some economic aid to these countries to help stimulate their economies so they wouldn't have to come here for the promise of a better life. And besides "illegal immigrants", what else is coming across that border unoticed?

What happened to taking a stand against something? If you're truly against illegal immigration, I dare you to not use any product or service that involves illegal immigrants. I also dare you to go out in a community like Mount Kisco and talk to some of these guys, and hear their stories. Also, crack open those history books!

[DOC22 1]

Seth, while you bring out some good points. True there are many US Citizens living in poverty, who deserve more help, I feel than the Illegals. One of the BIG problems with this Country in is the liberal BS that we allow to happen. All this Politically Correct nonense, is more nusence than it's worth. And many of the problems are exascerbated by this foolishness.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

You know, the Constitution does grant equal protection for ALL PEOPLE, it does not say "all citizens and no one else", and I have no problem with that. This is basically a big billboard for the US

"C'mon in lil kemosabes! You don't belong here, but what the hey, we'll give you all this stuff anyway!!"

[x635 4,066]

Excellent post, xfirefighter484x!

What exactly is "Polictically Correct"?

I asked, and as usual, found a very interesting article on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

[Future Fireman 4]

I say screw being "politically correct"!!!! I'd rather be POLITICALLY INCORRECT ANYDAY!!!!

Mike

[DOC22 1]

Well, whether the proper term is PC, what I'm trying to say is that not too fsr bsck if you were to come into this Country, you had to learn our language, Work for a living, and even become a Citizen. Now we have to learn their language and just about cater to them. They get in an accident and we pay for their medical care. I have trouble paying for my own, and I have to pay more taxes to cover them???? THAT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!!!!!!!

[Future Fireman 4]

Well, whether the proper term is PC, what I'm trying to say is that not too fsr bsck if you were to come into this Country, you had to learn our language, Work for a living, and even become a Citizen. Now we have to learn their language and just about cater to them. They get in an accident and we pay for their medical care. I have trouble paying for my own, and I have to pay more taxes to cover them???? THAT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!!!!!!!

There are 3 types of people that I hate:

Illegal Immigrants

Politicians

Criminals

The Illegals and Politicians can also be criminals, but you'll never find an Illegal immigrant that's a politician. However, I have NO problem with Illegal Immigrants becoming LEGAL citizens. I only have a problem with those sneaking over the border into the US of A for whatever they wanna do.

I also have NO problem with Immigrants taking ESL classes (English as a Second Language). The only problem with that is, that their are some who just don't care.

Note: For all you Illegal Immigrants who think it's our job to serve you, When you get into a car accident or whatever, don't expect me to show up in a suit and tie to be your personal butler while you're recouperating

Thank You and Good Night.

Mike

[ckroll 101]

"Give me your tired your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the open door.''

Why don't we just trade in Liberty's torch for an up raised middle finger and a sign that reads "Sucks to be you".

What makes/made America great is/was tolerance and compassion. I'm proud to be liberal and proud that just because my family got here 150 years ago instead of last week that I don't think that makes me special. Don't confuse luck with superiority. In point of fact, the Spitzer proposal was intended to bring NYS in line with the recommendations of the 911 Commission. What allowed the individuals responsible for 911 to be identified was that they had gotten driver's licenses..... as legal aliens. Might add, if you eat fruits and vegetables, thank an illegal immigrant.

And for those of you how love the English language so.... Lurn to spel.

[Goose 188]

Your missing the point. The law clearly states that there is a proper way in which to legally visit, work in or become a resident within the United States. We don't have an open door policy, that means - i know this actually entails a bit of work and waiting - that those interested go to the American Embassy and fill out the necessary paperwork, pay the fees and wait. Millions of people are doing the same thing this very second. Why is it so hard for some to comply and why do others feel the need to shove this down our throats?

Just as a fun fact New York tax payers spend 5.4 billion dollars a year on illegal immigrants (education, health care, incarceration), thats 874 dollars per household.

If you want to come to this Country do it legally, equitably and fairly. Are we really asking for all that much here?

Edited October 30, 2007 by Goose

[abaduck 123]

Let's pick a nice easy non-controversial topic for my first post

I think Seth and ALSFirefighter (ALS... is that you Tom?) have it about right. Driving licenses are not the issue. You want to drive? Get a license! Legal, illegal, or citizen, it doesn't matter.

What I object to in the present debate is the notion of some kind of amnesty, or mechanism for illegals to become legal easily. I'm a legal immigrant, Scottish-born - I got my US citizenship a couple of months ago. Without going into the gory details, it took the best part of ten years; I don't know if you guys have any conception of just how hard and long a process it is.

The notion of giving citizenship to people who said 'f**k you' to that process and just got themselves across the border is repugnant, and a slap in the face - no, a kick in the balls - to guys like me who did it the hard way.

Mike

[NYCOP 0]

This really makes me mad. We once again have to change things to accomidate them. We cann't say the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE in school's. They don't feel the need to learn and speak English. We are giving them money to attend College. Now we are giving them Drivers Licenses, and change how they are issued.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Wow, what a topic to discuss. Lots of great points made by all. Nice to see a topic where we all can be adults and share our opinions, whether we agree or not. Immigration is definately a touchy subject all around. If people want to immigrate to OUR country, i have no problem with it, as long as they do it legally! They want drivers licenses? Do it legally, like the rest of us have! If they want to come here and work and positively contribute to our society, then so be it. Like everyone else, i have had my fair share of experiences with immigrants, both positive and negative. Many of them are hard working and just wish to support their families and thats fine. Many of them constantly cause problems for people, emergency services personnel in particular.

As far as the driver license issue, i'm a bit torn. Some say "who cares, they all drive anyway." Yes, that may be true, but not right or legal. If i let my license expire, as well as my insurance and i hit someone...oh boy, i'm set to lose alot. Doesn't seem to be the same for immigrants, now does it?

A year or so ago, i went to the local DMV office to re-new my Commercial Driver License (CDL). A license that i legally obtained by passing a written exam, as well as a road test on a commercial truck. As i was in line, waiting my turn, there were two gentlemen in front of me speaking in Spanish. I did not think much of it, until they got to the counter. Turns out, one of them had just moved here from Puerto Rico (legally or illegally, i do not know) and was attempting to obtain a NYS driver license. The other gentleman was his INTERPRETER! This pissed me off quite a bit, to say the least. I had to stand and wait there while this guy had to have everything repeated to him in Spanish. Do you think if i were to go to a predominately Spanish speaking country, i'd be treated the same? I think not!

[Oswegowind 17]

You can actually take the driving exams in Spanish language!

And Puerto Rico would be legal...they are citizens...it is an entity of the USA.