Ambulances with rescue tools

[NYMedic37 22]

Does anyone work in a 911 ambulance that carries rescue tools, (Haligan, Jonny bar, etc.) or any other type of hand tools that can be used in an unusual rescue situation? The reason I ask, is because I'm trying to get one of my 911 EMS jobs to consider getting some small rescue hand tools, to use in case FD or ESU is not on a scene. This would allow us to initiate forced entry into a car, room in a house, etc. or use in any unusual situation. Thanks guys..........

Edited March 11, 2008 by DOC22
Grammar and punctuation errors

[firemoose827 324]

We carry a basic tool kit in both of our rigs, with all the basic hand tools such as hammers, hack saw, screwdrivers, pliers, a 5lb sledge and a lawnmower blade with a wrapped handle to use for cutting sheet metal, stuff like that. Than we have a crash axe, extrication gloves, and helmets. We only use this stuff for emergency access to patients. We recently had a call for an unknown medical. We got on scene and found out it was a possible CO poisoning and almost had to use the axe to gain entry. It turned out ok, but atleast we had the axe and some tools to gain entry if we had to.

When I say "Crash Axe", I mean the Biel Tool. Heres a link, because I know someone will ask!!

Biel Tool

[x129K 1,393]

While I can certainly agree with carrying basic tools on the bus, I wonder how many of these rigs carry basic vehicle stabilization devices, such as cribbing/step chocks?

I understand the "emergency access to patients before the FD gets there", but without stabilizing the vehicle - is it worth the risk to the patient? The only time I can see it justified it in case of vehicle fires.

[mfkap 0]

While I can certainly agree with carrying basic tools on the bus, I wonder how many of these rigs carry basic vehicle stabilization devices, such as cribbing/step chocks?

I understand the "emergency access to patients before the FD gets there", but without stabilizing the vehicle - is it worth the risk to the patient? The only time I can see it justified it in case of vehicle fires.

When considering "expanded operations" for an EMS crew, training is an issue. Is it better for the patient if no one forces entry until the FD gets there, or an EMS crew who does it once a year does it, and does it wrong? In rescue I would think that the "late but correct" beats the "quick but wrong". Most FF's I know have forced a few dozen doors in training, and still quite a few aren't "experts". Now you are going to have an EMT and a driver, with little to no training, trying to force a door? What if they just mess up the frame and it makes it harder for the FD? What if they hurt themselves? What if they delay calling the FD because they think they can do it themselves? I mean, the FD would be mad if you called them and then popped the door before they got there, right? I miss the days when my bus carried a set of irons, and we could have used them on a few jobs since then, but we also are made up of 50% firefighters. I don't think I would want two of the non-firefighter EMT's trying to force a door with a set of irons.

[NYMedic37 22]

When considering "expanded operations" for an EMS crew, training is an issue. Is it better for the patient if no one forces entry until the FD gets there, or an EMS crew who does it once a year does it, and does it wrong? In rescue I would think that the "late but correct" beats the "quick but wrong". Most FF's I know have forced a few dozen doors in training, and still quite a few aren't "experts". Now you are going to have an EMT and a driver, with little to no training, trying to force a door? What if they just mess up the frame and it makes it harder for the FD? What if they hurt themselves? What if they delay calling the FD because they think they can do it themselves? I mean, the FD would be mad if you called them and then popped the door before they got there, right? I miss the days when my bus carried a set of irons, and we could have used them on a few jobs since then, but we also are made up of 50% firefighters. I don't think I would want two of the non-firefighter EMT's trying to force a door with a set of irons.

Guys, thanks for the input. I was thinking more along the lines of hearing cries for help behind a wooden bathroom door and using a tool to gain entry or simply breaking a hasp / padlock ... more of a simple rescue then a complicated rescue that is more F.D.'s expertise. If there was a person trapped in a car wreck, I would certainly think that FD or ESU would be better qualified to handle that situation.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Rescue 34 from the West Shore Fire District in West Haven, CT carries a full compliment of, well, everything, while still being a transporting ambulance. The other 2 rescues in the city (Rescue 1 and Rescue 27) carry smaller amounts of tools, but could still get some forcible entry done if need be.

[firemoose827 324]

Guys, thanks for the input. I was thinking more along the lines of hearing cries for help behind a wooden bathroom door and using a tool to gain entry or simply breaking a hasp / padlock ... more of a simple rescue then a complicated rescue that is more F.D.'s expertise. If there was a person trapped in a car wreck, I would certainly think that FD or ESU would be better qualified to handle that situation.

I was talking in the same lines as you too brother. Basic stuff like gaining entry to a patient that is unconcious with a locked door, or breaking a window in a car that is on fire to rescue a trapped occupant...not a complete extrication set-up. I am a FirefighterII/EMT so I have the training, most of our squad are firefighters also. But if you dont have the training, than you dont perform the task...simple as that.

BUT...If you arrive on scene of a medical emergency, the door is locked, no one else is with the patient, and you see the person lying on the floor through a window unconcious, and the FD has not been dispatched due to the "Medical Emergency"...I am using the tool and popping the lock, forcing the door, or breaking a window to gain entry.

[JCESU 20]

If I could only pick one tool for the tour to do forced entries with I would certainly go with a Rabbit Tool. In 7 years of doing Medical/Forced entries it has NEVER failed me-wood or metal. We just bought two spares and I think they ran around $1200.00 each (approx.). When time is of the essence damage takes a back seat and using anything else is too time consuming. The buses down here don't carry them but we also get dispatched on all forced entries so its kind of a moot point with them.

[Union241 3]

We carry a full set of tools for entry and extrication (including cribbing) on both of our rigs. All of the EMTs employed with my company are all at the minimum Firefighter I/EMT and we all have PA DOH Vehicle Rescue Technician certifications for any time we have to force a door to gain entry into a structure or pop a door to gain access to a car (prior to the Heavy Rescue's arrival). As part of our SOG we also have PD respond on all calls in case if we do have to force a door, just so that we have an additional witness as to our actions. Having all of the tools along with PD assistance has proven to be quite valuable on many occasions.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If I could only pick one tool for the tour to do forced entries with I would certainly go with a Rabbit Tool. In 7 years of doing Medical/Forced entries it has NEVER failed me-wood or metal. We just bought two spares and I think they ran around $1200.00 each (approx.). When time is of the essence damage takes a back seat and using anything else is too time consuming. The buses down here don't carry them but we also get dispatched on all forced entries so its kind of a moot point with them.

A good set of Irons never fail. We have had Rabbit tools fail (blown gaskets) and they don't work on outward swinging doors. They also work better if the rabbit is very weak or missing and on pad locks.

And at $400 per set its a better bet.

[Ex-2114 7]

Some years ago, Elmsford 58B1 (Rescue 13 as it was called then) carried the typical Irons, hand tools, etc.... There was also a compartment dedicated to rescue equipment - we carried the Hurst Tool (power unit, large spreaders, cutters, and ram) as well as a small compliment of cribbing (step chocks and 4x4x12 lumber).

Since then, the equipment was moved to Ladder55 and a second Hurst Tool was purchased for either Engine 137 or 237 (can't remember).

There were a couple of times when we were returning from the hospital and came across an MVA and had to go to work. Once, we were returning from Phelps and there was a nasty one on 141 (I think that's the road) - since we had just finished an MVA, we all had our turnout gear, so the Jaws were put to use... just to pop a door. This is going back a lot of years.

One of the Engines has a full compliment of cribbing now along with airbags and the Jaws. Ladder55 is still carrying the original Hurst Tool.

[weaselff 6]

Guys, thanks for the input. I was thinking more along the lines of hearing cries for help behind a wooden bathroom door and using a tool to gain entry or simply breaking a hasp / padlock ... more of a simple rescue then a complicated rescue that is more F.D.'s expertise. If there was a person trapped in a car wreck, I would certainly think that FD or ESU would be better qualified to handle that situation.

Unless you're a 12 year old girl, I hope you can kick down your typical hollow core wood frame door used for bathrooms and bedrooms.

[irishfire2491 24]

We carry a Set of Irons because you never know the type of call you may get but for any force entry we will always call the FD but it they are tied up on another job we have the tool to gain entry

[SageVigiles 1,194]

We carry a full set of tools for entry and extrication (including cribbing) on both of our rigs. All of the EMTs employed with my company are all at the minimum Firefighter I/EMT and we all have PA DOH Vehicle Rescue Technician certifications for any time we have to force a door to gain entry into a structure or pop a door to gain access to a car (prior to the Heavy Rescue's arrival). As part of our SOG we also have PD respond on all calls in case if we do have to force a door, just so that we have an additional witness as to our actions. Having all of the tools along with PD assistance has proven to be quite valuable on many occasions.

Sounds like PA is doing something right. In Connecticut, to take the state Vehicle/Machinery Rescue class, you will already have to have been through the EMT class in its entirety, and another 80+ hour Rescue Technician class, before you can take the TWO DAY Vehicle class taught by the state... That frustrates me to no end.

[Guest]

First....let's set the record straight...you can't render patient care if you can't get to the patient. Therefore, if your patient is locked behind a door, or in a wrecked car, you damn well better have the toys to play on arrival, WITHOUT waiting for the FD to arrive, establish it's "THEIR PARTY", then realize they need to roll a Rescue company, because it requires more tools than they have. A favorite drill I ran some time ago was a race between three EMS pros with a hacksaw and a can of oil, cutting a pair of "A" posts before the nozzleheads could get the Hurst tool up and running.

Than being said....Here is what in my humble opinion should be on EVERY SINGLE first responding EMS vehicle, and ambulance in the state of New York.

Icepick- to flatten tires quickly...can't roll a flat tire, alleviates carrying chocks

A few hacksaw blades, wrapped in duct tape.....see above.

Window punch, and duct tape....tape the window, use the punch, glass comes out without all the shards inside.

Class ABC extinguisher...pretty obvious

Good quality work gloves...again, pretty obvious

"K" tool, and a set or irons..."K" tools have no moving parts...and you can do tons with a set of irons.

All of this fits under the bench....or behind the seat. get everyone trained prior to pacing them in the rig.

[JJB531 652]

Sounds like PA is doing something right. In Connecticut, to take the state Vehicle/Machinery Rescue class, you will already have to have been through the EMT class in its entirety, and another 80+ hour Rescue Technician class, before you can take the TWO DAY Vehicle class taught by the state... That frustrates me to no end.

In NY, to take Rescue Tech, AVET, or any other class that the State offers, you have to have FF1 or Essentials... which means unless you're an EMT/Paramedic who is also a firefighter, you're outta luck. I had registered for an ice rescue class not too long ago only to have my name bumped off because I was told that firefighters have preference.

[NYMedic37 22]

Guys,

Thanks for all of the valuable information. I have formulated some ideas and will present them to my boss here at work. I do realize that EMT's and Paramedics are not trained in heavy rescue situations like ESU and FD but having some hand tools could initiate some light rescue untill ESU or FD arrives as needed.

Paul

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If anything I wish I'd see more ambulances keep forcible entry tools on their rigs then anything else. A set of irons and if anything a HydraRam would be the simplest thing that is needed.

Training is only an issue if you don't perform it and my 12 year old knows how to use a HydraRam. If VAC's in Westchester wanted forcible entry training all they would have to do is contact DES and I'm sure they would work with you to come in and get trained on lecture and hands on forcible entry skills.

As far as extrication equipment...in my area I'm lucky to get a bus, lone less have them have enough people to pry open a car. As far as doing it wrong...well lets just say I don't see all too many quality extrications from start to finish out there with stabilization being one of the first things that goes out the window unfortunately being that is the most important and it aids in the efficiency of the extrication.

[Guest]

In NY, to take Rescue Tech, AVET, or any other class that the State offers, you have to have FF1 or Essentials... which means unless you're an EMT/Paramedic who is also a firefighter, you're outta luck. I had registered for an ice rescue class not too long ago only to have my name bumped off because I was told that firefighters have preference.

And that is what is wrong with the Emergency services community in New York. EMS Professionals are the "cleft lip kid" in the ES family. We need to stand up and become assertive (read aggressive) to establish ourselvews as a seperate entity.

I for one, have no real desire to hump a highrise pack again, pump cellars, or ride the BRT, allowing the dalmation drool on me again.

I am an EMS professional...a paramedic for over twenty years. I have helped lives into this world.....and fought to keep souls here as well. I have been held in praise, and scorn, I have been beaten by crack addicts, and hugged by little old ladies.

I have also been ridiculed and harassed by the firefighters that are now paramedics so they can ride the BRT. These were friends I worked as prior to their new appointments.

I feel that we should as paramedics should come together and fight the discrimination we have taken for so long.

Sorry.....just annoying when we are forced to take a back seat because we maintain our purity to our craft.

[Ladder44 73]

Currently, the Hastings Fire Dept ambulance carries all extrication equipemt, hydraulic tools, some hand tools, and cribbing. The ladder I belive carries more hand tools, but they are working on coverting an older reserve engine into a squad, I guess you can call it........?

[RWC130 594]

I don't see any problem with a set of Irons on an Ambulance.

I know of a couple VAC's that do and have been put to good use.

I would suggest Training how to use them a MUST.

They can be very useful and also very dangerous!

[Guest]

We carry a tool box filled with basic hand tools and a halagan on my volunteer bus ans a cro- bar on my paid bus