Volunteer Fuel Reimbursement Act

[moggie6 54]

I do not agree with this Volunteer Fuel Reimbursement Act. It's crazy that i'll have to foot the gas bill for someone that is going to go volunteer.

If this bill does by some chance pass, i'll join the firehouse down the street from my house as a volunteer. I'm sure the Volunteer Fuel Reimbursement Act will be just as corrupt as the LOSAP program. I can ride around the block with the rest of them and sign in on standby for the call and get my credit.

[DaRock98 76]

I see all of the points made in this thread but the free movie passes, the free pool passes and firehouse gyms in my opinion are perks and nothing but perks. Our movie theater in our district gives us the passes b/c we provide a fire service to them. It does not cost anyone a penny besides the theater it self. The town provides the free pool passes for the same reason and again it does not cost anyone in the town a penny b/c the vollies are getting free passes( I can honestly say that there is maybe a total of 2 families in my dept that actually go to get the pool passes). The gym in my firehouse(if thats what you want to call it) is all hand me downs from members and members of the community who no longer want it, again not costing anyone else a penny for us to use.

When I think of a job I think of me collecting a salary, benefits, a pension and being able to support my wife and kids.I receive none of this in my volunteer dept, and thats why I think I could say I do this for free. I know of no depts. that go on vacation off the tax dollar what happened in L.I. was wrong and never should have happened but it's not fair to think that EVERY vollie dept is doing the same thing.

There are plenty of people to vollie who are in it for all of those perks and I wish that they would take a walk because they do absolutely nothing but give us a bad name. I for one am not one of those people I do what I do because I love it. Take all of the sh*t away and I will still be there to do what needs to be done. Sure I would love to receive the tax credit who wouldn't? But if we don't get I will still be here and continue to do what I love.

I am in no way taking this topic personally I am just tossing in my 2 cents. I could be wrong but this is how I feel.

Stay safe!

[Guest CRASH]

I see all of the points made in this thread but the free movie passes, the free pool passes and firehouse gyms in my opinion are perks and nothing but perks. Our movie theater in our district gives us the passes b/c we provide a fire service to them. It does not cost anyone a penny besides the theater it self. The town provides the free pool passes for the same reason and again it does not cost anyone in the town a penny b/c the vollies are getting free passes( I can honestly say that there is maybe a total of 2 families in my dept that actually go to get the pool passes). The gym in my firehouse(if thats what you want to call it) is all hand me downs from members and members of the community who no longer want it, again not costing anyone else a penny for us to use.

When I think of a job I think of me collecting a salary, benefits, a pension and being able to support my wife and kids.I receive none of this in my volunteer dept, and thats why I think I could say I do this for free. I know of no depts. that go on vacation off the tax dollar what happened in L.I. was wrong and never should have happened but it's not fair to think that EVERY vollie dept is doing the same thing.

There are plenty of people to vollie who are in it for all of those perks and I wish that they would take a walk because they do absolutely nothing but give us a bad name. I for one am not one of those people I do what I do because I love it. Take all of the sh*t away and I will still be there to do what needs to be done. Sure I would love to receive the tax credit who wouldn't? But if we don't get I will still be here and continue to do what I love.

I am in no way taking this topic personally I am just tossing in my 2 cents. I could be wrong but this is how I feel.

Stay safe!

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pool pass we dont even have a town pool

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movie passes where just took my wife and 2 of my 3 kids to see the HULk 100 bucks no passes

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.gym as earlier stated it's all hand me downs and donations from the membership's friends and family..

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as for the tax credit ther's got to be a better way i believe our departments are tax exempt maybe theres a way to regulate the actual fuel given to members like you must actually be on the rig to qualify for the perk not just the guy who drove by and said oh we have a call i need the point let me stop in....

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[Guest]

I am for this 100% Where I live I will probably never have paid fire protection, the tax base is now paying for schools for the next 20 years. If this is gonna get guys on the road to help then so be it. Something needs to be done. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Many posters are failing to realize that guys get killed doing this regardless if they get a w2 from their Dept at the end of the year. This is NOT The same as volunteering at the local hospital or reading stories to children at the library. If this helps get guys out of their homes when they are not working to respond to someones call for help then do it.

Edited July 9, 2008 by roofsopen

[Guest MVFD334]

Lets say this act re-embursed both volli and career, would this topic even be debated? I made a comment very early in this topic about who would be in support of this, and wether you want to beleive this is or isnt a career vs volli arguement or not, it sure looks like one. Just like most people out there I could care less wether or not I get a break or not, its not gonna stop me from offering my services to the community.. What I would like to really know is hat towns offer these free gyms, discounted movie passes, free pool passes and so on, because we dont see any of that around here.. Unless you include the discount I get at my local gym that normally costs 64 but i pay 60 but only if i sign for 3 or more months. I do thank the members of the community and business's though that support us and donate to our causes or drop off pies around holiday time. But if someone isnt against this act and supports being reimbursed some of their fuel costs in which they pay for out of pocket, I see no wrong in that.

[Guest MVFD334]

By definition if you are a volunteer you are doing it for free! If you do it for compensation it's just a job!

Yes, but our services are free, I would def like to see some compensation for the bottle of asprin I go through after dealing with some pt's.

[firemoose827 324]

Just out of curiosity, would this be in addition to the other proposed legislation that would give volunteers a $1200 tax credit as a recruitment and retention tool? Wouldn't that be construed as double-dipping?

Also, has the proposed fuel reimbursement act been officially drafted or is he just testing the waters?

You want to really impress me Assemblyman Zebrowski , give us ALL a break and reduce/repeal the State fuel taxes for a while!!!

This statement says it all Chris...Why not have Bills that will assist ALL firefighters with paying for gas? Career guys need to drive the rigs around to do Building Inspections and such, so why not help them too? Career guys that are off duty need to come to the station for training, right? Or do you do training during shift, Im not sure, but they need to use gas to get there...

My point is, we dont need the Gas Tax Break as volunteers. My department has a utility vehicle that we can use to drive to Training Classes all over the County and thats on dept fuel card account. When we go to the Fire Academy in our own vehicles they usually get it approved to reimburse us for the fuel. SO I dont see why we need the Fuel Tax Break.

I do see that we ALL need to start advocating for ALL of us and fighting for better conditions for ALL of us regardless of what we do or dont do.

I dont see the need for the City of Albany residents to pay for the fuel I consume here in "podunk" county USA when they already pay taxes for the fire protection in their city, its pointless. Its just the times, and the economy people, we need to band together until we are through this mess and into better times and better fuel prices and cost of living...I know I am strapping the blue light to the handle bars of my 10-speed bike and tying a rope with grappling hook so I can "Borrow" someone else's fuel to get me to the station!!! lol

[ex-commish 490]

[i do see that we ALL need to start advocating for ALL of us and fighting for better conditions for ALL of us regardless of what we do or dont do.

Very good point. I am not sure of how many firefighters, emt's, paramedics, law enforcement, etc. there are in this country but I would bet it is in the millions. We all belong to unions, state, sectional and national orgainzations who bark loud when we need something done. Maybe it is time that we bark at those who we put in office who keep selling us out instead of barking at eachother. Oil is bouncing around $145.00 per barrel. The politicians are arguing and blaming each other for the failing economy while they use tax money to lease cars, phones, gas, etc. Life is good on Capitol Hill as well as Albany.

We are all struggling. Lets make those we elect do thier jobs and work for us and fix this economy.

[Guest FFNick]

There are career departments that have limited apparatus movements to emergency responses only in an attempt to save fuel. They have stopped inspections, limited pub eds to the firestation, and request that any "non essential" department activities be tied in to returning from emergency runs.

I think that I personally would not have a problem with the fuel subsidy if the jurisdiction that is giving the subsidy to its members increases its tax or shifts the budget - there should be no statewide burden for this.

Why not change the way you do business? If you are that busy of a FD where your call volume is having you respond so much that the fuel is an issue, then maybe these departments or individuals should start pulling station tours and responding with the apparatus, instead of the POV? If your FD doesn't go on a lot of runs, and there is no reason to pull station tours, then maybe the fuel really isn't as big of an issue?

[ny10570 745]

The argument that if you're a volunteer you shouldn't be compensated is ridiculous. Volunteers have always received some sort of compensation for their time, they always will, and they should. But it shouldn't be coming from the state. If your town wants to pay for your gas or give you a break on your taxes then so be it, but as bnecis has so clearly pointed out many others are all ready paying for their fire protection, they shouldn't have to pay for more. Its bad enough that millions of dollars a year are being dumped into grants that are supporting poor funding and financial decisions. PPE, ventilation systems, and other basic necessities need to be provided by the community. Grants should be spent on equipment that benefits broader areas, but thats for another thread.

Edited July 9, 2008 by DOC22

[DOC22 1]

Its all well and fine to say the town should give tax relief, but I have 2 problems with that, 1) I can't afford to even rent in "my town", and 2) I sure as hell can't afford to own property in it either. I live in a rented aprtment in another town. So either way, the property tax deal does me no good, but the Stat Income tax credit serves to help me and many other renters who for whatever the reasons must rent rather than own.

[TCD0415 26]

See you at the movies.......... Oh thats right, don't have one in my town.

OK, Then see you at the pool......... Damn, no public pool either.

Gym membership, Nope, Pay Full Boat........

All the time people whine and complain about the Volunteer numbers going down and it getting harder and harder to get the rigs on the road. Now the state is attempting to do a little something to help ease the pain of this recent gas price increase and the hit to the volunteers serving their community, and all we hear is this nonsense? Please....... Kinda seems like some people on this forum dont have a problem with the numbers going down, hmmmmmmmmmm, imagine that.

Edited July 9, 2008 by TCD0415

[x129K 1,393]

I voted YES; In favor...because...well, if they want to offer it, i'd be happy to take them up on it...

Would I push it...nope...not that important to me...you want free gas? Run for Chief!

[Guest EFFP411]

As far as a tax credit for volunteers, I see the issues people have with them. I don't think it will help all that much TBH. If they decided to give a well though out and integrated tax break to ALL Emergency responders, reguardless of division, or "PAY STATUS", and didn't steal it from another section of the taxes, then i might go for it. Sorry, but i am a volunteer, and also have a job in EMS. I don't get any perks to speak of, besides running "around town" errands while i'm on the towns ambulance, or my job's ambulance. And, i still go to plenty of calls in my POV when i'm not at work. The only reason i wouldn't go to a call if i was available is if it was on the other end on our 60 square mile district, and it would be a waste of gas for me because the call would be over by the time I got there!!

What I would love to see more than anything else is for all of us to get along! This is always an issue, because people don't know how to play nice. I still don't think it matters if you get paid to be there, or left your house to go to a call, We still go and do the same job. PERIOD!!! WE won't be able to do our jobs properly if you have the mentality of "i'm better than you are", or whatever. I'm really getting sick and tired of people squabbling about it, and pointing fingers, and making us all look foolish.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Ok, i'm done now.

[ny10570 745]

See you at the movies.......... Oh thats right, don't have one in my town.

OK, Then see you at the pool......... Damn, no public pool either.

Gym membership, Nope, Pay Full Boat........

All the time people whine and complain about the Volunteer numbers going down and it getting harder and harder to get the rigs on the road. Now the state is attempting to do a little something to help ease the pain of this recent gas price increase and the hit to the volunteers serving their community, and all we hear is this nonsense? Please....... Kinda seems like some people on this forum dont have a problem with the numbers going down, hmmmmmmmmmm, imagine that.

Stop trying to bait people into a volley vs paid. I'm a volley, I don't own a home, I don't use the pool, no movie theater either, and can't even use the gym but I can see the other side of the argument and I agree. Other people shouldn't have to foot the bill for our problems. I'd be just as pissed if I had to pay for extra staffing for New Rochelle or any other paid fire dept that I don't get the benefit of protection.

[Guest wfems05]

I can't help myself- I'm going to respond to this...I volunteer for several different charities and use my car and gas in this volunteer work...does anyone think NYS should give me a tax credit for this? I don't, nor do I think volunteer Firefighters should receive it. I might also point out that the large majority of NYS residents are protected by career Firefighters so why should they be forced to subsidize residents of districts who choose to accept being protected by a volunteer Fire Department?

Pensions, tax credits, vacations, free community pool memberships, free movies,discounts on all kinds of stuff, firehouse gyms and party rooms, and I'm sure a whole bunch of other stuff I'm missing...yikes, how can someone who accepts all this call themselves a volunteer?? I don't get it...

And yes, I'm sure many of you will now point out the many benefits and perks of being a career Firefighter, but that's of course irrelevant to what I have pointed out above since a career Firefighter does not claim to do it for free- it's our job, and we proudly do it well, and attempt to receive as much compensation for doing it as is legally and ethically possible, no apologies for that and no false claims that we are providing a valuable service for free...

And, oh yeah, qtip...

This is the first time I am posting on this site, but I feel that this warranted a response. For the past decade I have been honored to be both paid and volunteer for both fire and EMS. Maybe where ever you are is mainly career guys. But I can say that the county I live in which is large has very few departments that have career staff. Even those departments are staffed at the bare minimum with paid guys, and the rest are volunteer. I also know of counties further north of me that are less populated and are strictly volunteer. So you really have a choice, make all the counties have career departments which mean bigger budgets state wide (= much higher taxes) or give the volunteers who actualy respond to calls a break on fuel. Sure it will raise taxes, but not nearly as much as if all of NYS became a state that had all career departments.

Also as a side note not all volunteer agencies have all those little perks. I have heard of some, but where I am have not seen it. What I have seen is there "recreational rooms" are second hand, dirty, old, brkendown pieces of furniture etc.

Basicly, if you are just career fire or EMS and not a volunteer, then don't b**** about the volunteers. Most of us do it not for the perks but because we enjoy it and we want to help others. As for me I don't knock the vollies and I don't knock career staff because I am and have been both.

[Goose 188]

This is the first time I am posting on this site, but I feel that this warranted a response. For the past decade I have been honored to be both paid and volunteer for both fire and EMS. Maybe where ever you are is mainly career guys. But I can say that the county I live in which is large has very few departments that have career staff. Even those departments are staffed at the bare minimum with paid guys, and the rest are volunteer. I also know of counties further north of me that are less populated and are strictly volunteer. So you really have a choice, make all the counties have career departments which mean bigger budgets state wide (= much higher taxes) or give the volunteers who actualy respond to calls a break on fuel. Sure it will raise taxes, but not nearly as much as if all of NYS became a state that had all career departments.

Also as a side note not all volunteer agencies have all those little perks. I have heard of some, but where I am have not seen it. What I have seen is there "recreational rooms" are second hand, dirty, old, brkendown pieces of furniture etc.

Basicly, if you are just career fire or EMS and not a volunteer, then don't b**** about the volunteers. Most of us do it not for the perks but because we enjoy it and we want to help others. As for me I don't knock the vollies and I don't knock career staff because I am and have been both.

b**** about the volunteers or point out critical flaws everyone seems to brush under the rug?

I'll keep "b***hing" as long as volunteers are getting rewarded for delivering a sub-standard level of care/protection to their citizens. I pray you never have to wait 45 minutes for an ambulance or only get a sole chief's car if youre residential alarm system goes off.

[Guest MVFD334]

b**** about the volunteers or point out critical flaws everyone seems to brush under the rug?

I'll keep "bitching" as long as volunteers are getting rewarded for delivering a sub-standard level of care/protection to their citizens. I pray you never have to wait 45 minutes for an ambulance or only get a sole chief's car if youre residential alarm system goes off.

WOW.. This thread should be shutting down at any time now.

Cause ambulances ALWAYS take 45 mins to get to a scene, and if Ms Brown burns her toast and sets off the smoke detector, the whole damn fire dept should be responding lights and sirens. But hey thats expected when your getting something for free..

[DaRock98 76]

b**** about the volunteers or point out critical flaws everyone seems to brush under the rug?

I'll keep "bitching" as long as volunteers are getting rewarded for delivering a sub-standard level of care/protection to their citizens. I pray you never have to wait 45 minutes for an ambulance or only get a sole chief's car if youre residential alarm system goes off.

Well maybe you should become part of the solution and volunteer if you don't like what is happening instead of just b**** and complaining about it because we all know that does nothing and gets you no where. Maybe that residential alarm that you see a sole chiefs car is because the chief turned back the rest of the responding units because it was nothing? maybe?? Maybe they are "rewarding" vollies to get these so called sub-standard care/protection up. I have always been a firm believer in you have to give a little to get a little maybe thats how these people are thinking. Maybe that 45 min ambulance that you are waiting for is because that area and surrounding ambulance company's are out on jobs already and it takes a few extra mins to get the next closest company to respond?( I am not saying that waiting 45 mins for an ambulance is ok at all) but it seems to me that you are being very negative about the vollie services and just MAYBE there are other reasons that you are not aware of that cause theses problems. Now if you can honestly say that these situations happen on a regular biases almost every time then yes there is a MAJOR problem but not all depts have theses problems you speak of and to classify all vollies in that category is not fair.

Edited July 9, 2008 by DaRock98

[Guest FFNick]

Well, it's too bad that this thread took a digger.

I think that if it stayed on topic, it could have brought some good info and discussion.

But I will say it again, maybe agencies affected by the fuel problem that we are presently in need to reevaluate how they operate, and make some changes. I know a lot of volunteer organizations that have proud and resourceful members, and I think they could make it work.

Why not have duty crews? No need to send 30 members to an AFA in their POVs, right? Either have the crews at the station, or just have a select handful commit to responding from home, and if its the real thing, then everyone goes. Your crew responds to calls today, and tomorrow, another crew does, and you are "off" (except for the real fire).

I dunno, maybe I'm missing the mark.

[firemoose827 324]

This better stick to the current topic about Fuel Tax Breaks...No More personal insults or accusations you can not back up with fact in a PROFESSIONAL manner.

This is a warning...Next off topic post buys this thread a ride to Trashville.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't use loaded phrases...I am a pro service member of the fire service and for the 2 different LOSAP programs I've been in, both were supposed to aid in recruiting and retention and at it hasn't at either. More programs to cost more money that has to come from somewhere else. Help us all out and use the money to create good jobs. Give more funding to my kids school district. Work on inner city poverty...you'll save even more money then when the crime rate reduces. Get funding like the federal SAFER act so smaller municipalities achieve better staffing that isn't just safer for their citizens but all the firefighters in the department career or combo.

[JFLYNN 681]

This is the first time I am posting on this site, but I feel that this warranted a response. For the past decade I have been honored to be both paid and volunteer for both fire and EMS. Maybe where ever you are is mainly career guys. But I can say that the county I live in which is large has very few departments that have career staff. Even those departments are staffed at the bare minimum with paid guys, and the rest are volunteer. I also know of counties further north of me that are less populated and are strictly volunteer. So you really have a choice, make all the counties have career departments which mean bigger budgets state wide (= much higher taxes) or give the volunteers who actualy respond to calls a break on fuel. Sure it will raise taxes, but not nearly as much as if all of NYS became a state that had all career departments.

Also as a side note not all volunteer agencies have all those little perks. I have heard of some, but where I am have not seen it. What I have seen is there "recreational rooms" are second hand, dirty, old, brkendown pieces of furniture etc.

OK, you and others have made one valid point-" not all volunteer agencies have all those little perks"...agreed...however, most of them do, and many more I didn't mention, and your point is irrelevant to the discussion... my 2 main points apply directly to the issue of the discussion of the proposed gas credit and to recap and be clear, my 2 main points are:

1. if you are truly a volunteer, you do not accept compensation

2. NYS residents who choose to live in a locality where there is a career fire department which is paid for by their taxes should not have to have a portion of their NYS taxes go toward subsidizing NYS residents who choose to live in a locality with a volunteer department

BTW, yes, there are far more volunteer Firefighters in NYS than career, however the career protect the overwhelming majority of NYS residents and extinguish the overwhelming majority of structure fires. These are indisputable facts. This is not at all a "dig" at volunteer firefighters, just one more reason why the majority of NYS residents should not be forced to pay for any of the gas that this large number of "volunteers" uses in their own commnuities.

It's a real shame some of you just can't qtip, and have a reasonable discussion about issues, but rather, continue to deflect from the issues and attack others personally as it suits you, which is why I haven't posted on here for a while now, and probably won't again anytime soon.

Basicly, if you are just career fire or EMS and not a volunteer, then don't b**** about the volunteers. Most of us do it not for the perks but because we enjoy it and we want to help others. As for me I don't knock the vollies and I don't knock career staff because I am and have been both.

Edited July 10, 2008 by jack10562
Chief, fixed your quote breaks

[ex-commish 490]

The argument that if you're a volunteer you shouldn't be compensated is ridiculous. Volunteers have always received some sort of compensation for their time, they always will, and they should.

I don't recall ever being compensated as a volunteer in my 28 years. When I first joined all we recieved was a dinner once a year. The company picnic we also had came out of our own pockets and when you died your family recieved a benefit from the benevolent association. I will agree over time certain perks have been introduced but to say we have always been compensated is simply not true.

[Doc 11]

There are career departments that have limited apparatus movements to emergency responses only in an attempt to save fuel. They have stopped inspections, limited pub eds to the firestation, and request that any "non essential" department activities be tied in to returning from emergency runs.

I think that I personally would not have a problem with the fuel subsidy if the jurisdiction that is giving the subsidy to its members increases its tax or shifts the budget - there should be no statewide burden for this.

Why not change the way you do business? If you are that busy of a FD where your call volume is having you respond so much that the fuel is an issue, then maybe these departments or individuals should start pulling station tours and responding with the apparatus, instead of the POV? If your FD doesn't go on a lot of runs, and there is no reason to pull station tours, then maybe the fuel really isn't as big of an issue?

Lots of good things in this post. I agree, shift staffing is a great idea for busy departments. It makes a lot of sense. And I agree, that the costs of these perks should only be the local jurisdictions responsibility. Sure, you won't hear me complain about it if this law passes, but I think that money is going to find its way from my pocket back to the state through some other tax increase, be it sales tax or income tax. The state is a financial disaster waiting to implode - they'll get their money no matter what.

[ajsbear 11]

Let's face it, if the state assembly and senate didn't show up for a year the state would run fine. It is the responsability of local government for any type of gas reimbursement. $500 back? I had to pay the full $59 for the Empire State Pass as well. No freebee there either. As for that huge list of bills in the assembly and state senate, LOL. Most bills sit up there for years before they even get looked at. Plus if you take the time to read them you'll see many are just duplications with some different wording, combonations of several etc. Maybe in the next 5 years you'll see a few make it through.

[GAW6 66]

Forgive my apparent stupidity JFlynn, but what is "qtip"?

[helicopper 1,050]

Alright, everyone take a deep breath!

If you'd take the time to read and digest the comments of those of us who have voiced opposition to a statewide tax based plan for compensating volunteers for their fuel consumption instead of leaping to the conclusion that everyone is "volunteer bashing" you'd see that the issue is not career/volunteer or simply anti-volunteer. Most of the comments were against the statewide approach rather than the issue of providing fuel compensation to volunteer responders.

As for my comments, I stand by my resistance to shifting the costs of providing a local service to the state as a whole. If my fire district wants to provide compensation to its members, fine, let them put it into their budget and I'll pay that nominal increase to my taxes. I should not, however, have to subsidize the activities of another department that chooses not to address the issue itself. This also has nothing to do with the fire service - I'd be just as resistant if this was any other purpose and I was subsidizing another part of the state.

Another important point that has been for the most part overlooked - will this actually work? Will we see any tangible improvement in recruitment/retention of volunteers or any change to the responses of these volunteers? How about a study on that before we commit to 125 MILLION (estimated only) in tax credits.

Nobody, in any of the posts in this thread, suggested eliminating the volunteer fire service in favor of career departments! That simply wouldn't work and I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe otherwise. If they did that they'd have to "boredom" to the list of causes of line of duty deaths because the volume in so many areas is so low. Imagine spending 40 hours a week in a firehouse that goes out once during that time or not at all? There's no way to maintain proficiency under those conditions either but that's for another thread.

Before rallying to support legislation that will have very little impact on the provision of emergency services, why don't we simply follow the advice of another EMTBravo member:

maybe agencies affected by the fuel problem that we are presently in need to reevaluate how they operate, and make some changes. I know a lot of volunteer organizations that have proud and resourceful members, and I think they could make it work.

Let each department identify how to better provide its service and go to its constituents to fund it. I pay enough taxes already!

Basicly, if you are just career fire or EMS and not a volunteer, then don't b**** about the volunteers. Most of us do it not for the perks but because we enjoy it and we want to help others. As for me I don't knock the vollies and I don't knock career staff because I am and have been both.

With that philosopy, I can't complain about Congress since I'm not a legislator or complain about healthcare since I'm not a hospital.

We, as taxpayers, have every right to question or "b***h" about the services in our community whether we're directly associated with them or not and whether they are career or volunteer. Many people seem to think that there is no accountability because "hey we're volunteers" but that's simply not true. Whether a municipal service, other political subdivision (aka fire district), or non-profit/not-for-profit corporation there are rules to be followed and the public has a right to know and provide input (good, bad, or indifferent).

This has been an interesting discussion with many varying opinions and we need to respect each other and our viewpoints. Personal snipes degrade not only this site but the significance of your message. So lighten up, don't take this personally, and think about how you'd feel if you were attacked for posting your opinion before you attack someone elses!

[helicopper 1,050]

Forgive my apparent stupidity JFlynn, but what is "qtip"?

It's an abbreviation for QUIT TAKING IT PERSONALLY!

Not a stupid question, it came up in other threads too! I believe that FEMA is going to add it to the book on acronyms so that everyone knows it and maybe a few more people try it!

[abaduck 123]

<snip to make the points I want to make>

2. NYS residents who choose to live in a locality where there is a career fire department which is paid for by their taxes should not have to have a portion of their NYS taxes go toward subsidizing NYS residents who choose to live in a locality with a volunteer department

I kinda see where you're coming from - but it's the *state*. It collects taxes from everyone, and spends them (or returns them as rebates) wherever it sees fit. Some areas are net contributors, some are net beneficiaries - isn't there a long-running b**** about NYC bankrolling the rest of the state? Some areas inevitably get more money than others; that's called 'politics' - are you saying that whole system is wrong in principle?

...the gas that this large number of "volunteers" uses in their own commnuities.

OK maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that's not nice. When someone puts something in quotes, like "volunteers" , I take that as perjorative - it's pretty much the same as saying 'so-called volunteers' or 'self-proclaimed volunteers'. You see where I'm coming from? Cut it out!

It's a real shame some of you just can't qtip...

Well quit making snide little comments like the above!

Mike