Ramapo (Rockland) Serious Ambulance Crash - 11/20/08

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

http://www.lohud.com/article/20081120/NEWS03/811200519

Father, son, two ambulance crew members hurt in Ramapo crash

Ambulance was totaled....hope everyone recovers soon

Any details as per the accident, the article is rather vague.

[Guest]

http://www.lohud.com/article/20081120/NEWS03/811200519

Father, son, two ambulance crew members hurt in Ramapo crash

Ambulance was totaled....hope everyone recovers soon

Any details as per the accident, the article is rather vague.

I was in Rockland this morning teaching EMT students at RCC. I was told that there were two chopters requested for the two patients in the car and that only one chopter landed. Air 2 was cancelled with a three minute ETA and the second patient was taken by ground to Good Sam. No one had anymore info as to whether the ambulance was responding to a call. This is the second accident that Spring Hill VAC has had in the last month both accidents were on Route 45 today's was approximately one mile from the earlier one. Everybody please be careful out there.

[vtach39680 23]

from looking at the skid marks the ambulance left and them being on the wrong side of the road. it looks like they were going way to fast and not using reasonable emergency driving tactics it is a shame. we have had way too many accidents in the recent years. this is # 2 for spring hill in a very short period of time.

Now is the time to change the cuture. driving fast does not truly decrease your response time. just don't do it (and yes if it was my grand mother / wife / father or any other family member I would rather you drive slower and stop at all lights then go, then o crsh and not get to them at all)

Edited November 20, 2008 by vtach39680

[LTNRFD 266]

from looking at the skid marks the ambulance left and them being on the wrong side of the road. it looks like they were going way to fast and not using reasonable emergency driving tactics it is a shame.

Everyone should refrain from doing their accident investigation and posting it here.

What skid marks are you talking about? The ones that start on the RIGHT side of the road and move to the left. Looks like an attempt to avoid the accident. And the skid marks look like they are of both the ambulance and the car involved, or maybe just that of the car being pushed by the ambulance down the road. This may have occurred because the operator of the ambulance, being injured in the collision, may not have had control of the ambulance and was then able to bring the ambulance under control.

There are so many 'what if's', that no one should make statements about who is at fault or what you think what happened. Let the accident investigators make that determination. The comments on the Journal News have the ambulance crew convicted of wrong doings. No one operating an emergency vehicle should be put though this. If you were driving would you want people armchair quarterbacking you?????

[50-65 205]

from looking at the skid marks the ambulance left and them being on the wrong side of the road. it looks like they were going way to fast and not using reasonable emergency driving tactics it is a shame. we have had way too many accidents in the recent years. this is # 2 for spring hill in a very short period of time.

Now is the time to change the cuture. driving fast does not truly decrease your response time. just don't do it (and yes if it was my grand mother / wife / father or any other family member I would rather you drive slower and stop at all lights then go, then o crsh and not get to them at all)

It appears to me that the car came throught the intersection (note the break in the double yellow line) and was pushed sideways by the ambulance. I imagine that the driver turned left in an attempt to not hit the car, thus ending up in the oncoming traffic lane.

However, you MUST slow down at intersections even if you have the clear right of way. You never know what the other driver is going to do.

I recently had a small moving van make a left turn from the right lane as I was traveling in the left lane with lights and siren. My brother recently was involved in an MVA (he was not driving) when the car in front of them yeilded and pulled to the right shoulder. Just as they approached the car however, the driver pulled from the shoulder directly in front of them.

Best wishes to all involved and be safe everyone.

[vtach39680 23]

Everyone should refrain from doing their accident investigation and posting it here.

What skid marks are you talking about? The ones that start on the RIGHT side of the road and move to the left. Looks like an attempt to avoid the accident. And the skid marks look like they are of both the ambulance and the car involved, or maybe just that of the car being pushed by the ambulance down the road. This may have occurred because the operator of the ambulance, being injured in the collision, may not have had control of the ambulance and was then able to bring the ambulance under control.

There are so many 'what if's', that no one should make statements about who is at fault or what you think what happened. Let the accident investigators make that determination. The comments on the Journal News have the ambulance crew convicted of wrong doings. No one operating an emergency vehicle should be put though this. If you were driving would you want people armchair quarterbacking you?????

sure quarterback all you want dont we do that during QA/QI and call audits? either way names were not used so I have no problem with a heated discussion if it brings change. It does not matter if it was an intersection or not they were driving too fast take a look at the length of the skid marks if they t-boned the car and "pushed" it and ended up on the left side of the road then they were going really fast to have that much kinetic energy to push an object that far.

[LTNRFD 266]

sure quarterback all you want dont we do that during QA/QI and call audits? either way names were not used so I have no problem with a heated discussion if it brings change. It does not matter if it was an intersection or not they were driving too fast take a look at the length of the skid marks if they t-boned the car and "pushed" it and ended up on the left side of the road then they were going really fast to have that much kinetic energy to push an object that far.

What is too fast. The posted speed limit at the accident scene is 45 MPH. Normal traffic would be doing 45-50 MPH. Your right, that speed would cause significant damage to both vehicles. To make the statement that the ambulance was going " too fast" is not a fair statement to make until all the facts are in. The ambulance could have been going 40 MPH, 5 MPH UNDER the speed limit and still caused that much damage.

What I am saying is, don't assume as to what happened and make a statement of fact when you don't have all the facts.

[JetPhoto 626]

Wow, I hope the crew is ok. I heard both victims in the car were unconsious.

Never a good thing to see something like that.

(nice photo's Brian)

[Goose 188]

Wow, I hope the crew is ok. I heard both victims in the car were unconsious.

Never a good thing to see something like that.

(nice photo's Brian)

I think the driver was flown to WMC and the passenger was transfered there as well.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Goose

[Goose 188]

Everyone should refrain from doing their accident investigation and posting it here.

What skid marks are you talking about? The ones that start on the RIGHT side of the road and move to the left. Looks like an attempt to avoid the accident. And the skid marks look like they are of both the ambulance and the car involved, or maybe just that of the car being pushed by the ambulance down the road. This may have occurred because the operator of the ambulance, being injured in the collision, may not have had control of the ambulance and was then able to bring the ambulance under control.

There are so many 'what if's', that no one should make statements about who is at fault or what you think what happened. Let the accident investigators make that determination. The comments on the Journal News have the ambulance crew convicted of wrong doings. No one operating an emergency vehicle should be put though this. If you were driving would you want people armchair quarterbacking you?????

Couldn't have said it any better. Thanks for injecting some professionalism and general sense into this conversation.

Who cares what it looks like, what it may have been, what could have been or what you think you see. Fact is none of you are the detectives or crash investigation team so why waste your breath? Really, no one cares to hear what you have to say.

Let the trained professionals do their investigation once thats done by all means have an intelligent conversation about the findings and what it means for all of us - EMS, Fire, and Police. Until then, just shut your trap.

[Jybehofd 85]

What is too fast.

Its simple... if they were going slower it wouldn't happen. The law sucks and i hope the patient in the other ambulance (if there was one) is ok and my prayers are with the crew and the patient in the car.

we all have to drive slower... we have to get there and safe. i know my driving changes evertime i see this or hear about this

[ny10570 745]

Its simple... if they were going slower it wouldn't happen. The law sucks and i hope the patient in the other ambulance (if there was one) is ok and my prayers are with the crew and the patient in the car.

we all have to drive slower... we have to get there and safe. i know my driving changes evertime i see this or hear about this

That is compete BS. You can always go slower. I hit someone doing 10 below the speed limit should I be going slower or should they have not run the light? We know so little about this accident. First, we don't have a clear shot of where the skid marks start. What I do know is the the standard stopping distance for a 2 axel light truck including driver reaction is approx 215 ft. Average ambulance is significantly heavier and doesn't stop nearly as well and the impact with the car is going to slow you down faster. Figure 215' is accurate you're looking at about 15 to 18x the vehicle length. Assuming this car came out of no where and the crew had the right of way this seems a very reasonable conclusion. Maybe the crew smoked a light and the car had the right of way. Maybe the crew was doing 65 and the car didn't hear them in time. There is still so much we can't tell from Brian's photos. Just because you were a problem behind the wheel before you heard about this accident it does not mean this crew was.

[gpdexplorer 46]

Was anybody in the other vehicle an MOS? If you look at the pics posted by Brian Duddy, you can see a dashlight on the dash.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

It looks like you are right unfortunately....if you zoom the picture you can clearly see a dash light and what looks like a maltese cross above the inspection.

Edited November 22, 2008 by jack10562

[OnTheWheel 43]

What I do know is the the standard stopping distance for a 2 axel light truck including driver reaction is approx 215 ft. Average ambulance is significantly heavier and doesn't stop nearly as well and the impact with the car is going to slow you down faster. Figure 215' is accurate you're looking at about 15 to 18x the vehicle length.

What is the speed of the vehicle that brought you to those numbers?

Edited November 21, 2008 by OnTheWheel

[5slow 9]

The cop in one photo is taping off the scene. He's way off judging by the visible skids and rubs on the roadway. He needs to push it out at least beyond the parked ambulance and another 40 or 50 feet.

[texastom791 31]

How come like three of the guys are wearing eye protection nobody else noticed that.Nice pics by the way.

[x129K 1,393]

How come like three of the guys are wearing eye protection nobody else noticed that.Nice pics by the way.

Cause no one else cares. They had a job to do and are doing it.

[texastom791 31]

Cause no one else cares. They had a job to do and are doing it.

Well you can't do that job too effectivly with a piece of glass in your eye.

[x129K 1,393]

Well you can't do that job too effectivly with a piece of glass in your eye.

100 percent right - BUT...this is not the place to call them out on it. That is for THEIR Chiefs or Officers to do.

I was at a fire the other day and a guy was hesitant to take pics because I initially did not have the waist strap on my SCBA done...then I was on a ladder in a garage, with light smoke, but had taken my pack OFF because I wasnt using air, and it was cumbersome for the position I was in - I took it off for my safety, to be more stable on the ladder....BUT...he was afraid of the EMT Bravo Eagle Eyes....

If enough people complain about operations, no matter how insignificant, Officers will start breaking guys ball's about taking pictures at THEIR scenes.

Edited November 21, 2008 by x129K

[ex-commish 490]

sure quarterback all you want dont we do that during QA/QI and call audits? either way names were not used so I have no problem with a heated discussion if it brings change. It does not matter if it was an intersection or not they were driving too fast take a look at the length of the skid marks if they t-boned the car and "pushed" it and ended up on the left side of the road then they were going really fast to have that much kinetic energy to push an object that far.

QA and QI's are not done in public forums such as this and I don't think it is proper to make assumptions based on what is percieved. Lets allow the investigation to present the facts.

[mfkap 0]

Well you can't do that job too effectivly with a piece of glass in your eye.

This comment is what gives me hope in the future of the fire service. We are teaching juniors that it is your job to not get hurt. "I was too busy doing my job, that is why I did not use safety precautions" is the reason people get hurt. Safety precautions ARE your job. If we are getting the change in culture with Juniors, we might have a chance.

[markmets415 524]

http://www.lohud.com/article/2008811210383

According to lohud, the driver 18 is a firefighter and member of Hillcrest, one of their own.

Edited November 21, 2008 by markmets415

[AS702 0]

Lets ignore the cause of the accident.. Anyone else notice a lack of PPE? Eye protection? Although they do have a hoseline in place, no SCBA though..

[markmets415 524]

100 percent right - BUT...this is not the place to call them out on it. That is for THEIR Chiefs or Officers to do.

I was at a fire the other day and a guy was hesitant to take pics because I initially did not have the waist strap on my SCBA done...then I was on a ladder in a garage, with light smoke, but had taken my pack OFF because I wasnt using air, and it was cumbersome for the position I was in - I took it off for my safety, to be more stable on the ladder....BUT...he was afraid of the EMT Bravo Eagle Eyes....

If enough people complain about operations, no matter how insignificant, Officers will start breaking guys ball's about taking pictures at THEIR scenes.

Yep that guy was me, and I agree Dan, I did take one of you there though on the ladder with TIC. You had your waist strap on, I was referring to the waist strap debate regarding pics posted here. i said at the fire the other day that if I take pics without the SCBA you know that someone here would say Hey where's the SCBA. You know us, if we NEED it on, we wear it!!!!!!!

Mark

[markmets415 524]

Not that this is an excuse, this was one of their own in the car from what I have read, maybe just maybe they were rushing ops. However I must agree there are alot of on sceners that should have better PPE on.

[x129K 1,393]

Yep that guy was me, and I agree Dan, I did take one of you there though on the ladder with TIC. You had your waist strap on, I was referring to the waist strap debate regarding pics posted here. i said at the fire the other day that if I take pics without the SCBA you know that someone here would say Hey where's the SCBA. You know us, if we NEED it on, we wear it!!!!!!!

Mark

Exactly! I HATE to see people shy away or not do something becauase of what people HERE might say/think.

[markmets415 524]

Exactly! I HATE to see people shy away or not do something becauase of what people HERE might say/think.

Dan as you know the old saying "pictures speak 1000 words", that really holds true to the emergency services. I for one would never worry about what people think here about my PPE because as stated I wear mine faithfully, that can't be said for alot of others, to many times you and I see it, either no PPE or piece mealed together. The fire service clearly needs to get better.

[firemoose827 324]

Ok, things are skirting on the edge here so here is your warning...any more finger pointing or bashing of agencies or individual firefighters closes this thread. Keep it CIVIL, and PROFESSIONAL...everyone know the definitions of those words? If not look them up. Out of respect for those involved, which for this particular incident is a lot...Keep the bashes and negative coments to a minimum please.

Any word on the patients yet and their conditions?

[markmets415 524]

Thanks Moose, I was thinking the same, there was a link from lohud up a few in one of my posts. By the way Moose happy B-Day!!!

Here's the link from Lohud, I had posted it in the other thread.

http://www.lohud.com/article/2008811210383

Edited November 21, 2008 by markmets415