"Benefits" of being a volunteer

[Remember585 815]

If you are so concerned with fiscal responsibility why does every volunteer department need to have 12 chiefs all with their own SUV, most of which are less than 7 years old?

I think 12 is an exaggeration. I think the most I have seen around Westchester is four. As for the age, I know there are Chief's cars out there 10 years or older. I can't comment on anyone but our own, but our vehicles are replaced under the same plan as all other Village fleet vehicles at a certain mileage or if they fall apart and it isn't cost-efficient to repair them. Currently one of our Chief's vehicles is approaching eight years old.

Or what about those million and multi-million dollar engines and trucks that just sit in the houses collecting dust?

Another exaggeration, I don't think anyone has pulled off designing and purchasing a mutli-million dollar rig. I'm sure with enough time and money, somebody will go nuts and do it. As far as rigs sitting in quarters collecting dust... there is a little truth to that and I have to agree with you. There's departments that have apparatus which will spend a few months of the year as "reserve" or "last due" because they are parade wagons. There's also departments that have apparatus and you never hear them respond to anything. Ever. I am sure it is nice to retain an engine as a reserve or spare - that's different. But when you have a firehouse that is full front to back with rigs and most calls you only send one, maybe two, that's ridiculous.

The subject of consolidation is always mentioned, and maybe I am not 100% (or even close to it) on being sold on the whole concept... I do think that we could perhaps save money if Department A and Department B agreed to respond together with a specialized rig - say a Truck or Rescue - instead of both departments having them and actually needing them a dozen times a year.

Personally speaking, i think volunteer FDs in Westchester are the biggest scam going as far as fiscal responsibility and quality of protection are concerned.

I disagree. Some departments actually are responsible for their monies and are well monitored and audited by their municipalities / districts. If the municipality doesn't agree with something then they have an obligation to their voters and taxpayers to address it.

I think the "biggest scam going" as you put it is the abuse of the Workers Comp system when firefighters are "injured" on the job and are out of work to help create overtime for others. If this isn't true, then why do you always read about how many firefighters are injured at fires in paid departments, and you see none or maybe one injured at a fire put out by volunteers? Ahhh....yes, a questions nobody dares answer. I have been in EMS systems and know plenty of others whom have been at fire scenes to witness the "tapping out" of firefighters. I'll leave it at that.

All these government mandated benefits and perks make me sick. It's the biggest freaking scam going. I put my life on the line day in and day out doing quadruple the call volume (and provide a better service, overall) of 99% of these yahoos and knuckle heads and they are getting a pension for showing up a job in shorts and boat shoes or swinging by the firehouse to sign the run sheet. I should get a pension based on the number of jobs i do - all of which are answered in minutes and treated to the highest level of pre-hospital care and transported to the most appropriate facility - all without abuse of mutual aid.

I also agree that the LOSAP system is flawed. I don't see how someone should be credited if they aren't helping get the apparatus out, wearing their PPE, donning SCBA, attending training and being a good member of their department. It irritates me to no end when you hear of departments that have members "qualifying" for their LOSAP simply because they go to parades, cook at the firehouse BBQ and occassionally come to meetings.

I disagree with those that say that paid firefighters / departments are destroying volunteers - because we are ruining it for ourselves. Whatever happened to doing it for the right reasons? Why does everyone wants a free handout? If this attitude keeps up we can kiss the volunteer fire service good-bye, and when that happens it will be one of the saddest days in my life. I, like most others I know, joined to be a part of something that actually helps others and isn't all about "me, me, me."

I know some reading this will be pissed at me and that's fine because the truth sometimes has to hurt in order for it to get any attention.

[RescueKujo 130]

Just out of curiousity, where is the moderation? or do we let some stuff slip and catch other stuff?

Not to take away from this thread or get it off course, but I feel we (the moderation team) needs to address this. We have heard from some members that the board is being overmoderated. So, we're watching and seeing where the thread goes. If it is a personal attack on another member or the discussion gets out of hand by our account, we'll do what needs to be done.

Back to your regularly scheduled hot button discussion....

[gamewell45 258]

All these government mandated benefits and perks make me sick. It's the biggest freaking scam going. I put my life on the line day in and day out doing quadruple the call volume (and provide a better service, overall) of 99% of these yahoos and knuckle heads and they are getting a pension for showing up a job in shorts and boat shoes or swinging by the firehouse to sign the run sheet. I should get a pension based on the number of jobs i do - all of which are answered in minutes and treated to the highest level of pre-hospital care and transported to the most appropriate facility - all without abuse of mutual aid.

Goose, with all due respect, i think your honestly wrong on this. I think that anyone who responds, whether career or volunteer puts their lives on the line. And let me remind you that volunteers don't get pensions; the LOSAP is an annuity; not a pension and as such the laws are different. Furthermore, who honestly cares if someone shows up in shorts or boat shoes; they don't dress for the job like those of you who are paid to wear a uniform and unless the departments want to start issuing uniform allowances and a secure place to change into their uniforms on scene, then this shouldn't be an issue with anyone. How would you feel if the public objected to you receiving workman's compensation if you were hurt on the job afterall thats a mandated benefit. As far as getting a pension based on the number of jobs you do, contact your union and request that they negotiate that clause into your next contract; if your not union, then approach your boss and tell him how valuable you are to the company; the great pre-hospital medical feats you accomplish in the ambulance and that you deserve a more favorable pension. Maybe they'll consider your request. And by the way, don't forget to tell them that you make this all happen without the abuse of mutual aid.

[JFLYNN 681]

I think 12 is an exaggeration. I think the most I have seen around Westchester is four. As for the age, I know there are Chief's cars out there 10 years or older. I can't comment on anyone but our own, but our vehicles are replaced under the same plan as all other Village fleet vehicles at a certain mileage or if they fall apart and it isn't cost-efficient to repair them. Currently one of our Chief's vehicles is approaching eight years old.

Another exaggeration, I don't think anyone has pulled off designing and purchasing a mutli-million dollar rig. I'm sure with enough time and money, somebody will go nuts and do it. As far as rigs sitting in quarters collecting dust... there is a little truth to that and I have to agree with you. There's departments that have apparatus which will spend a few months of the year as "reserve" or "last due" because they are parade wagons. There's also departments that have apparatus and you never hear them respond to anything. Ever. I am sure it is nice to retain an engine as a reserve or spare - that's different. But when you have a firehouse that is full front to back with rigs and most calls you only send one, maybe two, that's ridiculous.

The subject of consolidation is always mentioned, and maybe I am not 100% (or even close to it) on being sold on the whole concept... I do think that we could perhaps save money if Department A and Department B agreed to respond together with a specialized rig - say a Truck or Rescue - instead of both departments having them and actually needing them a dozen times a year.

I disagree. Some departments actually are responsible for their monies and are well monitored and audited by their municipalities / districts. If the municipality doesn't agree with something then they have an obligation to their voters and taxpayers to address it.

I think the "biggest scam going" as you put it is the abuse of the Workers Comp system when firefighters are "injured" on the job and are out of work to help create overtime for others. If this isn't true, then why do you always read about how many firefighters are injured at fires in paid departments, and you see none or maybe one injured at a fire put out by volunteers? Ahhh....yes, a questions nobody dares answer. I have been in EMS systems and know plenty of others whom have been at fire scenes to witness the "tapping out" of firefighters. I'll leave it at that.

I also agree that the LOSAP system is flawed. I don't see how someone should be credited if they aren't helping get the apparatus out, wearing their PPE, donning SCBA, attending training and being a good member of their department. It irritates me to no end when you hear of departments that have members "qualifying" for their LOSAP simply because they go to parades, cook at the firehouse BBQ and occassionally come to meetings.

I disagree with those that say that paid firefighters / departments are destroying volunteers - because we are ruining it for ourselves. Whatever happened to doing it for the right reasons? Why does everyone wants a free handout? If this attitude keeps up we can kiss the volunteer fire service good-bye, and when that happens it will be one of the saddest days in my life. I, like most others I know, joined to be a part of something that actually helps others and isn't all about "me, me, me."

I know some reading this will be pissed at me and that's fine because the truth sometimes has to hurt in order for it to get any attention.

My compliments on a well reasoned, constructive and respectful post.

[helicopper 1,050]

See, we can agree to disagree!

[ex-commish 490]

"If you are so concerned with fiscal responsibility why does every volunteer department need to have 12 chiefs all with their own SUV, most of which are less than 7 years old? Or what about those million and multi-million dollar engines and trucks that just sit in the houses collecting dust? "

12 chief's cars? I believe you are stretching it. Most have 3. And one of our cars is actually 10 years old.

"Personally speaking, i think volunteer FDs in Westchester are the biggest scam going as far as fiscal responsibility and quality of protection are concerned."

And you are entitled to your opinion.

"All these government mandated benefits and perks make me sick. It's the biggest freaking scam going. I put my life on the line day in and day out doing quadruple the call volume (and provide a better service, overall) of 99% of these yahoos and knuckle heads and they are getting a pension for showing up a job in shorts and boat shoes or swinging by the firehouse to sign the run sheet. I should get a pension based on the number of jobs i do - all of which are answered in minutes and treated to the highest level of pre-hospital care and transported to the most appropriate facility - all without abuse of mutual aid."

You choose to put your life on the line. While I do agree there is abuse it is not limited to the volunteer fire service. I can tell how many times my FD ambulance had to respond to the Grasslands Reservation which is primarily covered by paid ems.

I am the first to point out flaws in the volunteer system. But let's base our opinions on facts and not emotion.

[ex-commish 490]

"The strength of our society is the ability to debate an issue without fighting with each other". - Anonymous

This is one of the best quotes I have ever seen.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't think anyone has pulled off designing and purchasing a mutli-million dollar rig. I'm sure with enough time and money, somebody will go nuts and do it.

2009 List prices for tower ladders without loose equipment is now $1 to $1.2 Million. Lets hear it for sticker shock.

As far as rigs sitting in quarters collecting dust... there is a little truth to that and I have to agree with you..... There's also departments that have apparatus and you never hear them respond to anything. Ever.... But when you have a firehouse that is full front to back with rigs and most calls you only send one, maybe two, that's ridiculous.

Look at the other thread: "Annual Runs". with many depts. doing 250 to 750 runs how many of those depts need 3-5 engines plus ladders, rescues, etc.? How many of those calls require the 2nd engine? If it was dispatched from another dept. automatically every time its needed that would suffice. If your doing 500 runs per year how many are actual fires? how many are structure fires and how many are workers or greater alarms? And if as has been discused elsewhere the dept has trouble getting out (or getting multiple rigs out) how many of those calls do you actually need those units for?

The subject of consolidation is always mentioned, and maybe I am not 100% (or even close to it) on being sold on the whole concept... I do think that we could perhaps save money if Department A and Department B agreed to respond together with a specialized rig - say a Truck or Rescue - instead of both departments having them and actually needing them a dozen times a year.

As I mentioned above, how often do some depts have actual working fires? A dozen times a year, 2 dozen?

I think the "biggest scam going" as you put it is the abuse of the Workers Comp system when firefighters are "injured" on the job and are out of work to help create overtime for others.

1) Municipalities got out of workers comp 25 years ago for career firefighters. We are covered under GML 207A. Different system with different rules.

2) I can tell you how hard it is for my dept to get injured members to go to the ER. Ask anyone who's worked EMS in NR, others might, but not here.

If this isn't true, then why do you always read about how many firefighters are injured at fires in paid departments, and you see none or maybe one injured at a fire put out by volunteers?

1) Quantity. If you have 100 workers/yr vs. 5 which one gets exposed to more potential?

2) Why do you see more volunteers injured/killed responding?

Its all in the numbers.

I have also seen some depts. & or members that are much less agressive than others, if you don't go interior you are much less likely to get hurt. And before anyone jumps on me for that statement, I'm not naming names or depts. but we all know whats out there and I'm not picking on anyone.

[Remember585 815]

I know it isn't actually "workers comp," I just couldn't think of the correct term.

More volunteers are getting injured and dying each year for the same reasons over and over again.

- Lack of training

- Lack of physical exams

- Lack of accountability

All three of which are much better controlled in a paid department where it is a job requirement and people can't pull the "I'm a volunteer" card. Until we wake up and start creating equal (or at least a closer) standard of training for volunteers similar to that of the career departments, it's not going to change and I fear it will only get worse.

The members of the volunteer fire service in Westchester County have more training available to them then any other county in NYS. Do we take full advantage of it? Nope. I look up to the guys in all of Westchester's departments that always put in 110% to better themselves. When they improve what they can do and what they know, it makes the entire Department that much better. And if we slowly get more people to take additional training in each department, then perhaps we can improve the whole thing. It's just too bad that there are people and departments as a whole that just don't get it.

[ladder55 26]

why does it matter to the career guys so much about the appauratus of the volunteer depts? In my dept we have 2 ladders, 2 engines, 2 bls units, and a utility and one of the lowest taxes in westchester. we cover almost 3 miles with a ton of commercial property including factories, warehouses, hotels, motels, and office buildings. we average about 1100 calls a year. i have never pulled up to a residental or commercial alarm and heard someone say what a waste of tax dollars. if a mulicipality feels its necessary to have 8 engines and 4 ladders cover their community and tax payers dont have a problem i dont see why you should.

Before i was a volunteer when my father and brother did this i always told the guys how much credit they deserve. We HAVE to have the passion to do this everyday. everyone on here knocks our training, our dedication, our desires and the now the reason for doing it. The real volunteers out there know what i mean when i say we dont need a tax break, gas credits, a gym membership or anything else. We do it because we love to do it.

[Guest DFD189]

Were you referring to me as anti- volunteer?

I would disagree.

It's ironic that I just noticed this post now as I am just about to head out the door for one of several volunteer activities that I am involved in. I receive no compensation of any kind, i.e. my services don't cost anybody anything. If you can say the same, then kudos to you, you are a true volunteer.

Although I would agree with you that I am a "pot stirrer", at times, I would point out that my attempts to "stir the pot" are made with the best intentions. I am just trying to get at the truth...what is the total cost of fire protection in various communities and what service is being provided? Once we know this, we can have a more educated, objective discussion about maybe making some positive changes.

Qtip

Chief,

With all due respect, positive changes in what way? Something that would benefit the volunteer fire service? Perhaps you can elaborate.

I'm not denigrating your volunteer service, but I would dare say that whatever you do doesn't hold a light to the commitment required to field a viable volunteer fire service. I can't think of too many 'volunteer' organizations which wake you from your sleep at 2.30 in the morning, have you dressed and on a rig by 2.35, pulling a line at 2.39, making entry into a working basement fire at 2.41...I think you get my drift. Not to mention the hours of 'volunteer' time required to get a crew trained to even do that task, or the myriad of other's performed (my department performed 457 such tasks on the fire side this past year, and over 2,500 EMS tasks...not too shabby for a bunch of 'vollies').

Given that heart attacks are the number one killer of firefighters, forgive me if my fire department goes the extra step in making sure its firefighters have access to facilities designed to increase their physical fitness and thus reduce the chance of heart attacks. And the fact that we dare provide insurance to cover death or disability in case of something going wrong while responding to an emergency...I don't view that as an extravagence.

As for your remarks about 'vacations' (i.e., training), again I find it hard to knock someone who takes vacation time from his or her paying job so that they can attend a conference or an academy in order to better their skills as a firefighter. While it is obvious that some who attend big-name conferences such as FDIC or Firehouse Expo do so for the social aspect (this sin covers both paid and volunteer), I can attest that those my department sends attend 16 hours of hands on training, followed by an intensive classroom program which maximizes their learning. While they can let their hair down once the classes are finished, it is their responsibility to be fit for duty in the morning when the class sessions resume. The same holds true for those we send to Montour Falls. This is professional training, not a 'vacation.'

If a department provides certain other incentives, such as service rewards, modest scholarships for family, and a social environment conducive to team building and welfare, so much the better. Not only are these useful for recruitment and retention, but they are also good for overall team morale. The bottom line is that none of this detrimentally impacts the fiscal bottom line when it comes to operating a volunteer fire department. The $780,000 our fire district recieves each year from our tax district is well spent in keeping two fire stations, three Chief's cars, two engines, a truck, a squad, a light utility vehicle and three ambulances up and running, and 82 members equipped and trained. The estimated costs of providing a similar service with paid personnel was around $6 million (although some savings could be had by reducing manpower from the current minimum of four Class A firefighters we currently require to respond per apparatus to a crew of 2 or 3, something many Unions permit even though it flies in the face of safety and operational effectiveness). In addition, our fire department recieves around $40,000 per year in donations which it uses for non-firematic expenses (those 'perks' you seem to frown upon).

We are proud of the service we provide to our community. They get professional volunteer firefighters who protect life and property in an efficient, effective manner. None of us do it for the 'perks'. All of us do it for the pride, and the satisfaction that comes with helping a neighbor in need. I would challenge any paid department to willingly sit down and open up its books (all the books, including Union expenses) to the public in these times of budgetary sensitivity. I'm fairly certain that the tax payer would be able to find much to question. While no volunteer fire department is perfect, I am fairly certain that the board of commissioners of my fire district, and those we operate with, would have no problem explaining how we spend the tax payers money in providing the service we do. We are true volunteer's, in every sense of the word.

Chief, if you have any constructive suggestions on how we volunteers might better maximize the professionalism of the service we provide our respective communities, I for one am prepared to recive them. But please be specific, and back each point of criticism with a solution. Ad Hominum remarks are but a red herring designed to achieve little more than resentment and animosity, neither of which are conducive to a constructive public forum.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

why does every volunteer department need to have 12 chiefs all with their own SUV

from your profile Goose, I have no idea where your from, nor do I have a clue what VFD your talking about, but where or which Dept. are you talking about ??? Maybe I am wrong, but I know of none...

I put my life on the line day in and day out

again, Goose, I have no idea where you work.... are you in the Marines as a medic in Iraq ?? please clear this up.... yes, all work can be dangerous, every day stepping out of bed our lives are at risk .... this may be my lack of knowledge with people on the forum, but do you work for a Town or City EMS Corp. or a private company.... I know many guys who are apart of each, and lets be real, life risking every day ???? maybe due to driving to fast..

the car comment is a weak argument

hmmmmmmmm, weak for the paid Dept.'s, but a major sticking point againt volunteers... I personally hate the idea of Volly Chiefs who abuse the Chief's cars for vacations and trips many miles away from the home turf... so I agree there, but I ... as a tax payer hate the idea of all the WASTE in Towns and Cities with take home vehicles... It was maybe a year ago that News 12 was reporting on all the " Take Home Cars " of Yonkers ( all depts.., not just FD ) talk about allot of watsed tax payer money.... I am sure several guys would not loose their jobs during tough times if these vehicles were discontinued... ( sell the cars and not budgeting in buying new, no needed maintainance for that fleet, no need for wasted fuel and the insurance savings... )

but yet its still done, and tax dollar is wasted... a question I have ??? are all of these vehicle lettered with the Town or City they are owned by... I think it is required, but not 100% sure...

Maybe you should suggest to the Mayor that I take a cab in the future

come on now... lame excuse.... you make a GREAT salary and live in a nice house, use your own vehicle to head in for those multiple alarms... stop digging into the taxpayers pockets for more... does each one of the fire fighters that work under you, that get call in during big alarms get vehicles to travel in ??? maybe they do, I am not sure... but the Career guys I know, all have to drive in their own cars...

99% of these yahoos and knuckle heads and they are getting a pension for showing up a job in shorts and boat shoes

Goose, again, you must be mad typing here... 99% of the VFD members is what your saying ??? I guess then this is pointed to me... so I am replying.... yeah I have been known to show up to a " Job " wear shorts... I work in construction while wearing shorts and live most of my spring, summer and fall in shorts... but I am not stupid... if I got to work, I toss on my Bunkers and coat and get to work... maybe this was a case of crazy fingers, but I think your way off base here... and the name calling ??? Yahoos and knuckleheads, grow up dude

yes, there are times I get to a call, and there are so many guys there, I am not needed... so, I do not put on my gear and stay by the rig waiting to see if I am needed... as far as the " pension Money ", have you any idea how much it is... its a joke !!!

Back to your regularly scheduled hot button discussion

NICE WAY TO PUT IT....

and DFD189, well said...

[Remember585 815]

No love for me T10?

And believe me when I tell you guys, shorts is a lot more then we used to see him show up in!!!!

[LTNRFD 266]

99% of these yahoos and knuckle heads and they are getting a pension for showing up a job in shorts and boat shoes or swinging by the firehouse to sign the run sheet.

From this statement it is apparent that you know nothing of what the career FF's wear when they work. During the warmer months, most career departments give the on duty force the option of wearing tee shirts and short pants. Are 99 % of them yahoos and knuckleheads ?????

And to address the boat shoes. Most carer FF's wear black sneakers with the short pants!!!

Edited January 4, 2009 by LTNRFD

[ckroll 101]

From this statement it is apparent that you know nothing of what the career FF's wear when they work. During the warmer months, most career departments give the on duty force the option of wearing tee shirts and short pants. Are 99 % of them yahoos and knuckleheads ?????

And to address the boat shoes. Most carer FF's wear black sneakers with the short pants!!!

I was going to say.... they wear shorts in Peekskill in the summer. Great looking legs, I might add.

Acrimony aside, money talks, or at least it should. It is no mystery what paid or volunteer departments have as budgets. In tough economic times it is up to the mayors and supervisors and town boards to get each municipality the best value for its money. If that is a paid service then so be it. If that is volunteer service, so be it.

There are economies of scale in high density areas that do not apply to lower density suburbs and semi rural communities. Where there are a significant number of multiple story commercial buildings and a tax base to support it and a high call volume, then paid or part paid makes financial sense. Where districts run to 80 square miles and have 5000 households, not so much. If there were vast differences in quality of service town to town, I think that would have made the news, or at the very least be reflected in insurance rates. Does anyone know if insurance rates are markedly lower in 'uniform' districts versus those served by 'knuckleheads'?

All of which has nothing to do with the benefits of being a 'knucklehead'. If this a fishing expedition, then yes, there are some lunkers out there. Volunteer departments get away with what they can get away with...... as do paid departments. Arguing which pig has its nose deeper in the pubic trough is just laughable.

[x129K 1,393]

I beleive the shorts and boatshoes comment was directed at the volunteer service, not the career

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I beleive the shorts and boatshoes comment was directed at the volunteer service, not the career

and why should it make a difference ?? are there 2 different standards ? do the career guys apply different lotion to their legs that its ok ? the comment was made, period... and it can apply to both sides of the FD

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief,

With all due respect, positive changes in what way? Something that would benefit the volunteer fire service? Perhaps you can elaborate.

OK, I'll elaborate a bit. First of all, perhaps we can agree that the yardstick for measuring the effectiveness of a Fire Department would be the average response time for an adequate number of fully trained, physically fit personell with proper equipment to arrive on the scene, and doing this all as cost effectively as possible. My feeling is that this all can be improved in any department (career or volunteer), but particularly with volunteer departments in Westchester County. The changes I hope to see, and I believe I will see, will come a little bit at a time, over many years, in both career and volunteer departments. My voice is but one small piece in the puzzle in trying to accomplish this. I believe that ultimately regionalization and consolidation and the adddition of more career staff in many, not all, locations in Westchester County is the answer. However, to show conclusively that my theory is true, it must first be shown what the true cost of a volunteer department is, and also the true differences in response times, training levels, and services provided between career vs. volunteer departments.

I'm not denigrating your volunteer service, but I would dare say that whatever you do doesn't hold a light to the commitment required to field a viable volunteer fire service. I can't think of too many 'volunteer' organizations which wake you from your sleep at 2.30 in the morning, have you dressed and on a rig by 2.35, pulling a line at 2.39, making entry into a working basement fire at 2.41...I think you get my drift. Not to mention the hours of 'volunteer' time required to get a crew trained to even do that task, or the myriad of other's performed (my department performed 457 such tasks on the fire side this past year, and over 2,500 EMS tasks...not too shabby for a bunch of 'vollies').

You know nothing about my volunteer service, and you probably never will. I prefer to do my volunteer service without publicizing it nor asking for any accolades or credit. So, how can you say that it doesn't hold a light to the commitment required to field a viable volunteer fire service? BTW, I would question the word "viable" in many departments anyway. And remember, I question the whole notion of whether someone who receives substantial benefits for his or her service is morally (or legally in the case of taxes) justified in calling himself a "volunteer" I will tell you this, though...both my volunteer service and the service of most volunteer Firefighters pale in comparison to many, many humble, charitable selfless volunteers such as those who volunteer for Hospice, Red Cross, Salvation Army, Pediatric Cancer, Veterans services, etc., etc., and these people ask for nothing in return.

As far as career departments opening their books, believe me, they are wide open, for you or anyone who wishes to take a look. This is a matter of law- we are subject to full public scrutiny, as opposed to the books of most volunteer departments.

Given that heart attacks are the number one killer of firefighters, forgive me if my fire department goes the extra step in making sure its firefighters have access to facilities designed to increase their physical fitness and thus reduce the chance of heart attacks. And the fact that we dare provide insurance to cover death or disability in case of something going wrong while responding to an emergency...I don't view that as an extravagence.

I would say that anecdotally, most volunteer Firefighters I have seen are in poor physical condition. However, the main point here is cost. Firefighters, career or volunteer, should have access to physical fitness facilities and insurance, however with consolidation and regionalization and the addition of career staff where appropriate, these expenses could be significantly reduced and measures could be put in place to hold all firefighters accountable for maintaining a certain minimum physical fitness level in return for these benefits.

As for your remarks about 'vacations' (i.e., training), again I find it hard to knock someone who takes vacation time from his or her paying job so that they can attend a conference or an academy in order to better their skills as a firefighter. While it is obvious that some who attend big-name conferences such as FDIC or Firehouse Expo do so for the social aspect (this sin covers both paid and volunteer), I can attest that those my department sends attend 16 hours of hands on training, followed by an intensive classroom program which maximizes their learning. While they can let their hair down once the classes are finished, it is their responsibility to be fit for duty in the morning when the class sessions resume. The same holds true for those we send to Montour Falls. This is professional training, not a 'vacation.'

Again, if we had regionalization / consolidation, there would be far less Chiefs and far fewer departments and more efficient training and these "training" expenses would be significantly reduced.

If a department provides certain other incentives, such as service rewards, modest scholarships for family, and a social environment conducive to team building and welfare, so much the better. Not only are these useful for recruitment and retention, but they are also good for overall team morale. The bottom line is that none of this detrimentally impacts the fiscal bottom line when it comes to operating a volunteer fire department. The $780,000 our fire district recieves each year from our tax district is well spent in keeping two fire stations, three Chief's cars, two engines, a truck, a squad, a light utility vehicle and three ambulances up and running, and 82 members equipped and trained. The estimated costs of providing a similar service with paid personnel was around $6 million (although some savings could be had by reducing manpower from the current minimum of four Class A firefighters we currently require to respond per apparatus to a crew of 2 or 3, something many Unions permit even though it flies in the face of safety and operational effectiveness). In addition, our fire department recieves around $40,000 per year in donations which it uses for non-firematic expenses (those 'perks' you seem to frown upon).

This is exactly my point. First of all, do the people who donate to the volunteer department for non-firematic expenses know that their money does not pay for the fire truck but goes for "non-firematic" expenses (perks)? Do you clearly advertise this? Maybe 40 Grand isn't much to you, but the 10 bucks you just got from the little old lady is a lot to her, and I'm sure many people who donate to volunteer departments, if they knew where the money really goes, would choose to spend their charitable funds elsewhere. Next, this whole argument is the fallacy that is constantly put forth by FASNY and which hurts career Firefighters severely. I don't believe your figures at all. These are scare tactics. A regionalized career or combo department, when you factor in all the direct and indirect costs of all the volunteer departments in that region, would very likely be less expensive (lower taxes, lower insurance premiums, no donations required) and provide a better service. This department could also provide critical first responder EMS services- which is sorely needed in most places in Westchester County.

We are proud of the service we provide to our community. They get professional volunteer firefighters who protect life and property in an efficient, effective manner. None of us do it for the 'perks'. All of us do it for the pride, and the satisfaction that comes with helping a neighbor in need. I would challenge any paid department to willingly sit down and open up its books (all the books, including Union expenses) to the public in these times of budgetary sensitivity. I'm fairly certain that the tax payer would be able to find much to question. While no volunteer fire department is perfect, I am fairly certain that the board of commissioners of my fire district, and those we operate with, would have no problem explaining how we spend the tax payers money in providing the service we do. We are true volunteer's, in every sense of the word.

I responded to the open books comment above. So, if none of you do it for the "perks", why not just give them up? Maybe that 40 Grand you raised last year from donations could go towards building a nice playground, ot to a a Disabled Veteran's charity? Maybe the tax money from the NYS tax breaks you receive and are subsidized by all NYS taxpayers, including in my City, could be used to hire more career staff (or in our case, rehire some laid off Firefighters). Same with the LOSAP money.

Chief, if you have any constructive suggestions on how we volunteers might better maximize the professionalism of the service we provide our respective communities, I for one am prepared to recive them. But please be specific, and back each point of criticism with a solution. Ad Hominum remarks are but a red herring designed to achieve little more than resentment and animosity, neither of which are conducive to a constructive public forum.

I hope you feel that my comments have been constructive. I believe my friend Bnechis would be able to provide more specific info to further elucidate my points above, such as how many total apparatus, vehicles and fire department facilities we have in Westchester County, both career and volunteer, and how many we would need with a regionalized ddepartment and the resultant savings. Maybe he also has info. and numbers regarding the total cost to the State of the various tax breaks received by volunteer departments and the LOSAP program, etc., etc. He is much smarter than I am.

Of course, I am not naive. These changes will happen slowly, if at all, but as a previous poster mentioned, progressive minds dream.

You are incorrect in stating that I am trying to achieve resentment and animosity. That is not the case at all. However, I have certainly felt those emotions directed at me on this forum, and it doesn't feel very good, so I'm truly sorry that you and others feel this way. I try my best to treat people respectfully, and make a positive difference in the world. I will plead guilty to being an intense, strong willed person who loves the fire service in general and my own department in particular. I like to debate issues, and try to get others (and myself) to think "out of the box" and maybe look at things differently than they have been. I am fully aware that this can make people uncomfortable and defensive, which is why I always end my posts, with, you guessed it, qtip...

[ckroll 101]

I beleive the shorts and boatshoes comment was directed at the volunteer service, not the career

Indeed it was and that is exactly point. While volunteers may have a more extended shorts season and as a rule less attractive gams, the original point inferred that on scene attire contributed to the quality of firefighting. As someone who once helped mount a courageous attack on a chimney fire in hip boots and a mini skirt, how you look on a ladder is not so important as what you do when you get there.

Now, I've got to know. Do the career FF's lotion their legs? Is it OSHA approved or is that an NFPA standard? Not something oil based, obviously. What are the favorite products? Finally this thread has gotten serious about stuff that matters.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In tough economic times it is up to the mayors and supervisors and town boards to get each municipality the best value for its money.

To many of these politicians do not look at the best value, they look at what is in their political interest. It does not matter if the "best" is the best for that community. One community hired 2 different consultants to advise them on replacing their ladder. Both suggested a 100' rear mount. They FD asked the Board for a 100' tower ladder/quint that would not fit in the fire house. The board proclaim "our volunteers deserve the best" so I'm voting for it.

There are economies of scale in high density areas that do not apply to lower density suburbs and semi rural communities. Where there are a significant number of multiple story commercial buildings and a tax base to support it and a high call volume, then paid or part paid makes financial sense. Where districts run to 80 square miles and have 5000 households, not so much.

While the economies of scale are greater in high density areas, they also work in low density (particularly since those areas often have less $$ to start with. This is why "out west" & "Down South" they have county or regional depts. that are growing thru regular consolidation.

If there were vast differences in quality of service town to town, I think that would have made the news, or at the very least be reflected in insurance rates. Does anyone know if insurance rates are markedly lower in 'uniform' districts versus those served by 'knuckleheads'?

Most people can not tell you what level of service the local FD provides. Many don't even know what dept covers them (particularly in districts). Look at the consolidation in Colleton county So. Carolina, they consolidated a rural county and were able to standardize the response, improve water delivery and reduce insurance premiums by at least 40%. The moved from an ISO PPC rating of 9 to a 4. No FD in Westchester rates better than 9 in areas beyond 1,000 from a hydrant system.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I believe my friend Bnechis would be able to provide more specific info to further elucidate my points above, such as how many total apparatus, vehicles and fire department facilities we have in Westchester County, both career and volunteer, and how many we would need with a regionalized ddepartment and the resultant savings. Maybe he also has info. and numbers regarding the total cost to the State of the various tax breaks received by volunteer departments and the LOSAP program, etc., etc. He is much smarter than I am.

I have not done a formal GIS study of the numbers (county wide), but one of these days, I'll consider it. I have looked at 3 different consolidations in the county (10 career depts, 2 combo & a vol, and 8 vol depts.) and all showed a potential reduction of 20-40% in needed apparatus. in most cases a reduction in facilities and in a cpl of cases additional stations & apparatus to underserved areas (the addition was after a larger reduction in over served areas). There are 2 studies into the costs statewide, one shows almost zero cost and the other millions of dollars (to much politics, to debate).

Of greater concern, about 4 years ago the NYS Comptroller issued a report stating that most of the LOSAP programs that they audited were drimatically underfunded. I do not recall how many they looked at, but it was a small % and I can no longer find the document on the state website. If this is true, then taxes will have to be raised to cover this. The longer that a community underfunds it, the more they will have to make up. This could amount to millions in each community and when it occurs it will not be paying for fire protection it will be paying for past service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now, I've got to know. Do the career FF's lotion their legs? Is it OSHA approved or is that an NFPA standard? Not something oil based, obviously. What are the favorite products? Finally this thread has gotten serious about stuff that matters.

OSHA requires "leg protection" based on a risk assesment of the call. So if responding to an MVA, there is the potential of being exposed to sharp metal, broken glass or blood, bare legs are not acceptable.

We allow our onduty members to wear uniform shorts, but not on any responses. Fires, MVA's, EMS etc. When washing the rig or house that's fine (dont want them to overheat) but on calls they wear pants (EMS) or bunkers.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I feel a little silly asking but what does QTIP mean?

[helicopper 1,050]

I feel a little silly asking but what does QTIP mean?

It's the trade name for the commonly used cotton tipped swab...

Sorry, couldn't resist. Here it means "quit taking it personally".

[RescueKujo 130]

Arguing which pig has its nose deeper in the pubic trough is just laughable.

Please tell me you meant "public" trough... though the vision I had did make me laugh...

[ckroll 101]

Please tell me you meant "public" trough... though the vision I had did make me laugh...

Thank you, spell check failed me. I'd hate to run afoul of forum decorum.

[Guest DFD189]

Chief,

You took the time to respond in a thoughtful manner, so I'll do my best to return the favor.

OK, I'll elaborate a bit. First of all, perhaps we can agree that the yardstick for measuring the effectiveness of a Fire Department would be the average response time for an adequate number of fully trained, physically fit personell with proper equipment to arrive on the scene, and doing this all as cost effectively as possible. My feeling is that this all can be improved in any department (career or volunteer), but particularly with volunteer departments in Westchester County.

Agreed. Our standard is four fully qualified (NYS Standard) interior firefighters and a driver/apparatus operator. We don't require a CPAT, but we do require proficiency, tested annually, in both a live fire and non-live firetraining environment of skill sets requireing a modicum of physical fitness. We are a department which places a premium on realistic training. We drill for three hours three times a month, and for four hours one time a month. When the training tower is available, we prefer live-fire drills under realistic (at least as realistic as NFPA 1403 allows) conditions. We push formal training, including OFPC outreach classes. We also think 'out of the box', and have sent members to learn advanced suppression/flashover survival in Sweden and the United Kingdom, and in California and Oregon. We are currently looking into sending personnel to a Positive Pressure Attack Academy to evaluate that particular tactic for our use and inclusion into our training program. I would challenge most career department's to match us for our effort to make sure we are fighting today's fires with the best possible tools and tactics available. We also require a mandatory annual physical and fit test. Those who don't measure up don't get certified as interior firefighters. It is not a perfect system, and I for one won't vouch for the 'heart attack proofing' of this system, but it does work. I haven't had the pleasure of associating with the Yonkers Fire Department, but I can say that the career department's I have worked with (in New York and elsewhere), the level of physical fitness is not uniform, nor is it high. I sometimes wonder what the CPAT score would be for some of the 8-plus year career firefighters who ride out on a daily basis to calls. If career department's can guarantee a training/physical fitness standard which exceeds that of my department's average response, then I'll concede the point (but I don't think I'd have to -- we have four military veterans who are still in top shape, and four others who are good athletes who continue to work out regularly). My experience is that, with the exception of a few big city department's, this is not the case.

One big issue here is that we may be talking apples and oranges here. My fire department is in Albany County, not Westchester County. I am not equipped to fight Westchester's volunteer firefighter's battles, just defend my (limited) volunteer experience. In dealing with some career department's in Westchester, it seems that a major issue comes with the intermixing of volunteer and career departments in a very confined area. I can see how this could lead to tension, since the career and volunteer services are two different beasts from both an operational and managerial standpoint.

The changes I hope to see, and I believe I will see, will come a little bit at a time, over many years, in both career and volunteer departments. My voice is but one small piece in the puzzle in trying to accomplish this. I believe that ultimately regionalization and consolidation and the adddition of more career staff in many, not all, locations in Westchester County is the answer. However, to show conclusively that my theory is true, it must first be shown what the true cost of a volunteer department is, and also the true differences in response times, training levels, and services provided between career vs. volunteer departments.

Again, no debate. We all want to do the job as best we can. Might I point out that you would do well to recognize that there is a difference in how volunteer department's operate on a day-to-day basis than do career department's. I was a active duty Marine for 12 years, and know what it takes to prepare a unit to be combat ready. I also did an active duty tour managing Marine Reserve forces. I can tell you that there is a world of difference between the approach one takes to train active duty forces and reserve forces. Would I prefer to go to war with only the highly trained active duty component? Absolutely. Reservists scare the heck out of me. However, society and government have determined that we won't fund a fourth active duty Marine Division, or a fourth active duty Marine Air Wing. So we adjust. Would society like to have fully-staffed career fire department's available 24/7 to respond to every emergency? Absolutely. But the realities associated with the expense of such an effort dictate that not everyone can afford that coverage. As such, we have volunteer department's. We need to recognize right off the bat that volunteer department's, by their very nature, represent a different managerial and operational problem set. Just as I would have been wrong to try and run 4th Force Recon Company (Reserve) as if it were 1st Force Recon Company (Active) (I'm dating myself here), you would be wrong to apply your skill set as a Deputy Chief of Yonker's to the problem of running a Westchester volunteer department, and vice versa. So the concept of what constitutes "true" is relavent when it comes to comparing career with volunteer in terms of response times, training and services provided. There cannot be a single standard for all, no matter how hard some advocate in favor of such. As long as society mandates volunteer fire department's by failing to fund career department's, this will be the case. Does this mean we roll over and give up? Not at all. I think we can all agree we need to continuously seek to improve upon the current situation, some more than others. I'm a big fan of consolidation as a means of reducing costs and increasing efficiency, even though to utter such words often gets me treated as a heretic in certain circles.

You know nothing about my volunteer service, and you probably never will. I prefer to do my volunteer service without publicizing it nor asking for any accolades or credit. So, how can you say that it doesn't hold a light to the commitment required to field a viable volunteer fire service? BTW, I would question the word "viable" in many departments anyway. And remember, I question the whole notion of whether someone who receives substantial benefits for his or her service is morally (or legally in the case of taxes) justified in calling himself a "volunteer" I will tell you this, though...both my volunteer service and the service of most volunteer Firefighters pale in comparison to many, many humble, charitable selfless volunteers such as those who volunteer for Hospice, Red Cross, Salvation Army, Pediatric Cancer, Veterans services, etc., etc., and these people ask for nothing in return.

You are absolutely correct, and I apologize if it seemed I was attacking you or denigrating your volunteerism. I wasn't. The point I was trying to make is that I cannot think of many (any) volunteer activities which require the level of risk to life and health as firefighting. I've done more than my fair share of helping the elderly, sick and disadvantaged. It is time consuming. But I've never risked my life doing it, nor does that assistance require the amount of training and preparation that fire fighting demands. Likewise, I have a hard time believing that most benevolent volunteers (Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc) put in the time and effort of a professional volunteer fire fighter (by that I mean one who actually is prepared to do the job in a professional manner). We average over 150 hours of mandated training per active firefighter (many do more) per year. The career side requires 100 hours of in-service training per firefighter. We do at least four six-hour shifts a month (EMS coverage) for a 24-hour commitment, in addition to responding to fire calls (30-plus a month, averaging 1.5 hours each, for a total of nearly 70 hours of operational time per month). Then there is the time spent maintaining apparatus, cleaning equipment, and (for the officers) managing the department. We are not just available when it is conveniant for us to be available, but rather usually when it is most inconveniant. There is a difference between being a volunteer firefighter and other forms of volunteerism. This was my point, and was in no way meant to be an attack on you or the volunteer work you do.

As far as career departments opening their books, believe me, they are wide open, for you or anyone who wishes to take a look. This is a matter of law- we are subject to full public scrutiny, as opposed to the books of most volunteer departments.

Again, I can't speak for most volunteer department's, just mine. I know that four years ago we approached our community for funding for a new firehouse. We held public meetings, and our finances were examined thoroughly. The issue of fire tax allocations and non-tax donations were addressed thoroughly, and the numbers examined even more closely. Some members of the community tried to make a big deal out of the department (i.e., non-firematic) funds. While the community voted down the funding for the firehouse (while disappointed, I actually am sympathetic to their vote, since I don't believe we had our act together before we went forward requesting such a large chunk of public money, but that is another story), the community rallied around the firefighters and the service we provide. I can safely say the little old lady who gives us 10 dollars knows exactly what she is doing, and why she does it.

I would say that anecdotally, most volunteer Firefighters I have seen are in poor physical condition. However, the main point here is cost. Firefighters, career or volunteer, should have access to physical fitness facilities and insurance, however with consolidation and regionalization and the addition of career staff where appropriate, these expenses could be significantly reduced and measures could be put in place to hold all firefighters accountable for maintaining a certain minimum physical fitness level in return for these benefits.

While noting the emphasis placed on the word benefits as being representative of your strongly held position on the matter, and unable to vouch for the physical fitness of anyone but those I associate with (I've said it before, I'll take my top 8 responding interior firefighters to my engine, and proudly compare their physical fitness with that of the average career engine any day of the week. I'd also be very comfortable with a comparison of their respective training level, and operational performance. All we suffer from is the requirement to respond from home or work, thereby slowing down our overall response (arrival) time -- to about 6-7 minutes at night, and 10 minutes during the day), I agree that things can be done better, and I for one (despite my advanced years) would support any and all efforts to hold interior firefighters to a stringent physical fitness standard regardless of career or volunteer status (Reserve Marines run the same physical fitness test as did we active duty Marines).

Again, if we had regionalization / consolidation, there would be far less Chiefs and far fewer departments and more efficient training and these "training" expenses would be significantly reduced.

I cannot find where my discussion on training had anything to do with the number of Chief's existed in a given department. We send firefighter's/company officer's to train, not Chief's. Sometimes Chief's attend events to look at potential purchases. But our training budget focuses almost exclusively on the firefighter/company officer. Rather than reducing training expenditures, I am constantly pushing for even more money to be allocated to realistic and effective training, especially in this day and age of reduced fire. The less we practice the operational art in active firefighting, the greater the need to train. Again, I don't know the Westchester average, but my department has four Chief's -- Number One (overall management), number Two (Apparatus and Equipment), number three (Training), and number four (EMS). We also have a fire Captain and a Rescue Captain. In no way can I see how this number is excessive to the task, especially when you keep in mind that we are volunteers, and as such are managed differently.

This is exactly my point. First of all, do the people who donate to the volunteer department for non-firematic expenses know that their money does not pay for the fire truck but goes for "non-firematic" expenses (perks)? Do you clearly advertise this? Maybe 40 Grand isn't much to you, but the 10 bucks you just got from the little old lady is a lot to her, and I'm sure many people who donate to volunteer departments, if they knew where the money really goes, would choose to spend their charitable funds elsewhere.

I addressed this above. I am very comfortable with how open we have been with our public. People are free to disburse private income any way they see fit. We are proud of the fact that our community continues to support us with their contributions, even in these hard times. I can safely say that, following the 72-hours straight my department responded to help my community during the last severe weather incident (mainly hazerdous conditions), and based upon how grateful the public was to see us out there, responding at all hours of the day to any number of situations, we'll continue to be supported in a manner which meets or exceeds past levels.

Next, this whole argument is the fallacy that is constantly put forth by FASNY and which hurts career Firefighters severely. I don't believe your figures at all. These are scare tactics. A regionalized career or combo department, when you factor in all the direct and indirect costs of all the volunteer departments in that region, would very likely be less expensive (lower taxes, lower insurance premiums, no donations required) and provide a better service. This department could also provide critical first responder EMS services- which is sorely needed in most places in Westchester County.

My numbers are very clear. Maybe we could sit down over beers some time and crunch them. The tax dollars are a matter of public record. The number I quoted before was based on five years ago. The most current tax record (I just recieved it in the mail) shows a level of $826,790 for my fire district, and another $443,654 for our ambulance service (BLS and ALS, over 2,500 responses per year). Just as a matter of comparison, we also fund two full-time Paramedics 24/7, each with their own SUV. That expense costs the taxpayer $751,794 per year. Just to put it in perspective -- we volunteers staff three ambulances 24/7 for $443,654, while it costs $751,794 to man two ALS SUV's. So now let's talk about the costs for staffing and operating my fire district (about 5 square miles, 30,000 population). Right now we do it with two engines, one ladder and one Squad (main apparatus). We can safely rely on heavy rescue, HAZMAT and additional engines (four) and ladders (two) from our mutual aid departments. The 2009 budget for Poughkeepise (4.8 square miles, 30,000 people) is $6.1 million, down from $6.32 million last year. This funds 52 firefighters, 8 Lieutenants, 5 Captains, and 2 Chiefs, 3 engines and 2 ladders operating out of four stations. They also run 3 man engines and 2 man trucks. If they were fully manned, their costs would climb even higher. $6 million to cover my fire district with paid firefighters is not a 'scare tactic', but rather a very conservative estimate. If we applied Yonkers-level pay scales, the number would climb even higher. There are no hidden expenses in the money allocated for my department, with the exception of the so-called 'tax break'. I haven't applied for it, and neither have many of my peers. But even if we did, the $1,000 82 members cost ($82,000) would barely fund one Yonkers firefighter, the point is really useless. Volunteers cost far less than paid firefighters, end of discussion.

I responded to the open books comment above. So, if none of you do it for the "perks", why not just give them up? Maybe that 40 Grand you raised last year from donations could go towards building a nice playground, ot to a a Disabled Veteran's charity? Maybe the tax money from the NYS tax breaks you receive and are subsidized by all NYS taxpayers, including in my City, could be used to hire more career staff (or in our case, rehire some laid off Firefighters). Same with the LOSAP money.

See above. I'm fairly certain that my fire district fully funds the service awards program, and we do not make use of outside money. I know we fund our insurance. I can double check the details. Otherwise, I think I've covered the points raised.

I hope you feel that my comments have been constructive. I believe my friend Bnechis would be able to provide more specific info to further elucidate my points above, such as how many total apparatus, vehicles and fire department facilities we have in Westchester County, both career and volunteer, and how many we would need with a regionalized ddepartment and the resultant savings. Maybe he also has info. and numbers regarding the total cost to the State of the various tax breaks received by volunteer departments and the LOSAP program, etc., etc. He is much smarter than I am.

I do. Like I said, I'm open to continuing this discussion anytime, since I find it is an important and relevant one.

Of course, I am not naive. These changes will happen slowly, if at all, but as a previous poster mentioned, progressive minds dream.

I would never charge a Yonkers Deputy Chief with being naive. I'm as progressive as they come.

You are incorrect in stating that I am trying to achieve resentment and animosity. That is not the case at all. However, I have certainly felt those emotions directed at me on this forum, and it doesn't feel very good, so I'm truly sorry that you and others feel this way. I try my best to treat people respectfully, and make a positive difference in the world. I will plead guilty to being an intense, strong willed person who loves the fire service in general and my own department in particular. I like to debate issues, and try to get others (and myself) to think "out of the box" and maybe look at things differently than they have been. I am fully aware that this can make people uncomfortable and defensive, which is why I always end my posts, with, you guessed it, qtip...

I stand corrected, as it would be inappropriate of me to allege intent. I would say that it does seem that this discussion topic engenders resentment and animosity from both sides (paid and volunteer). This is no reason not to have the discussion. I'm all about thinking out of 'the box'. I, too, am an intense, strong willed person who loves the fire service and my own department in particular. I spent too many years playing Marine to ever have the opportunity to become a career firefighter. That being said, volunteering for my community as a firefighter has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life, exceeding even that of my 2-war experience with the Marines. I bring the same intensity and focus to firefighting as I did when serving my country as a Marine. I can say that most (not all) of my fellow members bring the same level of intensity. The level of extracuricular professional reading that goes on in my department matches or exceeds that which the Commandant of the Marines required when he published his various professional reading lists. We discuss fire behavior, building construction and ventilation with the same professional eye as when I discussed plunging fire, close air support, and the merits of the 5.56mm SS-109 round over the 5.45mm short. We don't claim to be able to provide the same level of service as would a fully-paid department. But we do assert that we provide the highest possible level of professional volunteer firefighting we are capable of. It is up to the community to determine if this is good enough. So far, they are pleased with their return on the dollar.

As I said before, Chief, I respect your service and your positions. I do think you might do well by walking a mile in the other person's shoes -- take the time to visit a local volunteer department (I used to live in Hastings on Hudson, right next door to you, and while I didn't volunteer there, I know they have at least two firehouses). Talk to their Chiefs and officers, and see what challenges they face when doing the job. That might help you at least understand better the volunteer perspective. I have done my best to get the perspective of the paid service by participating in numerous hours of operational 'ride alongs', both here in New York, Houston Texas, Los Angeles California, and overseas in Sweden and the United Kingdom. I don't claim to know everything there is to know about the career side of the house, but I have taken the time to try to better understand their perspective. In any event, thanks for the time you've taken to participate in this little exchange of ideas.

Semper Fi.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I just finished watching a fasinating cable broadcast on this thread. It was a rerun of the Westchester County Board of Legilature's budget hearings from last month. And the topic was county tax exemption for volunteer FF's and EMS. The legislation which passed 9 to 7 allows a discount (I believe 10%) to all volunteers whose depts. have 5 or fewer career personnel. And a lifetime exemption for members with more than 20 years service (they did not clarify the amount, but stated the time could be retroactive).

The following volunteer (& or Combo) fire departments would not be eligible: Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale, Larchmont, Mamaroneck (town), Mohegan, Peekskill, Pelham, Pelham Manor, Port Chester, Rye & Scarsdale

That means the taxpayers in those communities and in Eastchester, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, White Plains and Yonkers will have to help fund the reduction in revenue to the county.

In effect what this does is means the volunteers in the communities listed above will pay more to support the volunteers in the communities that are not listed above.

It is unclear which of the VAC's or VFDAC's will be affected, since many have some hired personnel.

Another interesting item that was discused was that the county determined that 2,100 volunteers that would be covered under this. I thought this number was very low, but maybe a high % of volunteers do not own homes? Or is the county just guessing?

I remember a time when the county claimed there were 11,000 vol ff's. If we were to consider each vol/combo dept. that does not get the exemption to have 100 volunteers that adds up to 1,200 do the remaining 42 fire depts actually have 8,900 volunteers (an average of 212 members each) I suspect somewhere along the way someones numbers were inflated.

As a side note: the newly passed legislation has no requirement that the member actually be qualified, or even show up. all that is needed is a letter stating they are a member.

So as an honorery member of a volunteer agency (I did one call 20+ years ago) am I entitled to the exemption, since I am a "member"?

[ladder55 26]

doesnt service awards have something to do with this?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Chief, You took the time to respond in a thoughtful manner, so I'll do my best to return the favor.

Thank you for spending the time and effort to put this together

There cannot be a single standard for all, no matter how hard some advocate in favor of such.

Why not, many states have it, and as you point out your VFD can meet or exceed this. Why does there need to be two standards?

As long as society mandates volunteer fire department's by failing to fund career department's, this will be the case.

Does society really fail to support it or are the told that it is not needed, because you get it for free?

There are depts at all levels of service and if the public really understood what they get, would they change the system.

As a paid flycar paramedic I did a call to a baby in respiratory arrest in (2002) the vol ambulance could not get out the door, MA #1 was tied up on a call, MA #3 & #4 was unable to get out. while I was starting an IV, the patients mom was bagging her intibated 8 month old and asking me Where is the FD Ambulance?

Do you think this mother knew before she dialed 911 what level of service she was paying for?

Do you think the local dept. has told the community that they had a problem almost every single day?