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firecapt32

Escape Rope Requirement - How are you meeting the standard?

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I just attended and listened to a 2 hour presentation put on by the OFPC about the new Emergency Escape and Self-Rescue Ropes and Systems Components 12NYCRR Part800.7

Just wondering how your depratment is handleing the problem-- ?? and no there is no money avaiable from the State of New York.

It effects every fire department in the State except FDNY (over one million population) is exempt from the statute.

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I just attended and listened to a 2 hour presentation put on by the OFPC about the new Emergency Escape and Self-Rescue Ropes and Systems Components 12NYCRR Part800.7

Just wondering how your depratment is handleing the problem-- ?? and no there is no money avaiable from the State of New York.

It effects every fire department in the State except FDNY (over one million population) is exempt from the statute.

Captain, are there any requirements mandating Dept's to issue these rope systems by a certain time, or who can actually train firefighters on them?

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Captain, are there any requirements mandating Dept's to issue these rope systems by a certain time, or who can actually train firefighters on them?

here is the requirement

http://www.nyspffa.org/SRopes.pdf

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I just attended and listened to a 2 hour presentation put on by the OFPC about the new Emergency Escape and Self-Rescue Ropes and Systems Components 12NYCRR Part800.7

Just wondering how your depratment is handleing the problem-- ?? and no there is no money avaiable from the State of New York.

It effects every fire department in the State except FDNY (over one million population) is exempt from the statute.

I have heard rumors to the effect of a court ruling delaying the effective NLT date. The man to talk to is Dave Ruppert from NYS Department of Labor, It's a DOL law. Many department chiefs/comissoners are barking about the cost issue. As a Firefighter who enters and gets the job done, I think the bailout requirement is outstanding. Most/many of us have been jammed up a time or two if we are honest about it. Its good to have options if condition turn into a bag of worms. The true conerstone of bailout training is how to read conditions (like smoke) and prevent the situation from going south. But if the "you know what" hits the fan then a bailout system that a rock with lips could use, is whats needed. The Petzl EXO do cost a few bucks, but I think they are by far the best available of the shelf today.

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They haven't handled it just like the Hep shots and the NFPA 1582 Physicals!

Edited by hudson144

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Hate to bring it up again, but what rope / escape systems have you and your departments purchased? Positives / negatives of each is appreciated.

Thanks.

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Mohegan is buying and training every interior firefighter in the Petzl EXO escape system

Edited by prucha25

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We are still evaluating the systems. We were lucky enough to get a grant for all new turnouts, so they will all have the internal harness in them. We started planning for this last year and we got the local telephone company to donate some telephone poles and plant them behind the firehouse to construct a bailout training tower. We are just about done with it. I will post some pics soon.

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Bedford Hills has purchased the RIT bailout system. So far we have 30 systems in house and gemtor harnesses to go with them. Some of the Chiefs researched different systems and found that Rit met the requirements that we were looking for. So once we found the system we priced them out through AAA Emergency in North White Plains and a couple of us attended training for the systems. We became certified instructors and can now teach our own members with or without other instructors. To help us with training, since we have thirty members to teach an idea for a bailout window inside the fire house was brought up. Check out the story and pictures of the bailout window here

http://www.bedfordhillsfd.org/index.cfm?fs...amp;News_ID=176

We are also in the process of ordering 30 more systems for our interior members which will bring us up to 60 total.

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It effects every fire department in the State except FDNY (over one million population) is exempt from the statute.

What on earth is the thinking there? Like, NYC don't have fires? FDNY guys never get jammed up? This whole bailout rope thing started with FDNY LODDs, did it not?

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We have built a bail-out simulator, adapting the second floor of our Station 2 into three stations (two rope bail-out, one ladder bail-out). All of our interior firefighters are equipped with the Gemtor Class-II harness, with an oversize D ring. Our rope system is the Crosby hook attached to 8mm kevlar rope. We established an SOP which has every interior firefighter be qualified by learning the technique with no mask, learning the technique with mask, and then passing two evolutions while being evaluated on air. We also incorporate "Mayday" calling procedures into the final evaluation. If you don't pass the evaluation, you are dropped as an interior firefighter until you do.

We do not use a descender, but rather wrap the rope on the D-ring attached to the Gemtor harness, and brake our descent with our gloved hands. OFPC was not thrilled, but a team from OFPC attended one of our qualifying sessions, and accept that our technique works (and is very simple and fast).

Our bail-out simulator is made available to all of our mutual aid companies, and any department which requests its use. Our policy is that only Chief Officers, operating from an established SOP, can certify a firefighter on the simulator.

So far, so good, but the ropes were expensive.

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Interesting that everyone takes about the law and what they bought or have not bought. How many depts have actually done a written risk assessment 1st like the law requires?

The law is excellent, the stupidity that has occured after the law has been amazing. I've seen depts. actually buy systems for fire police.

What are the risks with any system? Has anyone considered that some systems are more dangerous WHEN NOT BAILING then others. Is you system more likely to get you injured or killed when you are doing something other than bailing out?

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I have heard rumors to the effect of a court ruling delaying the effective NLT date. The man to talk to is Dave Ruppert from NYS Department of Labor, It's a DOL law. Many department chiefs/comissoners are barking about the cost issue. As a Firefighter who enters and gets the job done, I think the bailout requirement is outstanding. Most/many of us have been jammed up a time or two if we are honest about it. Its good to have options if condition turn into a bag of worms. The true conerstone of bailout training is how to read conditions (like smoke) and prevent the situation from going south. But if the "you know what" hits the fan then a bailout system that a rock with lips could use, is whats needed. The Petzl EXO do cost a few bucks, but I think they are by far the best available of the shelf today.

The Petzl EXO is a good system but there are pros and cons to every system. If you are familiar with devices and ropes, there are better "systems" you could put together which are better than the EXO. Remember in order to have the EXO system you have to be trained by a certified EXO rep. which is only done by Petzl, regardless of whatever BS someone is trying to tell you. I know because I was heavily involved in the FDNY development of the EXO. I have witnessed first hand of the good and bad of the device. Yes, I am also certified to teach it, but I think there is better stuff out there. Again, this is up to your department(s) on what they choose, but you should choose something and not nothing. Everyone should have a rope with some type of device to get out when the ----hits the fan.

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Interesting that everyone takes about the law and what they bought or have not bought. How many depts have actually done a written risk assessment 1st like the law requires?

The law is excellent, the stupidity that has occured after the law has been amazing. I've seen depts. actually buy systems for fire police.

What are the risks with any system? Has anyone considered that some systems are more dangerous WHEN NOT BAILING then others. Is you system more likely to get you injured or killed when you are doing something other than bailing out?

As with any system, you need to do trial test. For example, find (purchase) the top 5 devices or packages you are looking into. Come up with a series of "test" to perform with each system. Anchor the device at pt A and go to pt B for playout time, crawl under "rubbish" to see if the system hangs up, perform several rappels on the device to see the problems if any, etc... From there you will find the one that fits your department the best. It may be that a combination of systems work best for your department.

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What on earth is the thinking there? Like, NYC don't have fires? FDNY guys never get jammed up? This whole bailout rope thing started with FDNY LODDs, did it not?

Abaduck,

As far as I know, every NYC FF has their own personal Petzl EXO which attaches very nicely to their gemtors.

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Abaduck,

As far as I know, every NYC FF has their own personal Petzl EXO which attaches very nicely to their gemtors.

I don't doubt it. Doesn't explain why it should only be voluntary for their department, when it's mandatory for everyone else, which was my point!

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I don't doubt it. Doesn't explain why it should only be voluntary for their department, when it's mandatory for everyone else, which was my point!

We all have Petzl systems and Gemtor harness' in FDNY

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I don't doubt it. Doesn't explain why it should only be voluntary for their department, when it's mandatory for everyone else, which was my point!

There are a great many STATE laws that don't apply to cities of 1 million or more because they have different or more stringent CITY laws. It's possible that the City passed a local law on the subject.

After all, the city is the 51st State... :P

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I have heard rumors to the effect of a court ruling delaying the effective NLT date. The man to talk to is Dave Ruppert from NYS Department of Labor, It's a DOL law. Many department chiefs/comissoners are barking about the cost issue.

If you can find any more information about such a court decision, please post a citation so others may find it.

Would these be the same department chiefs/comissoners who spend 20-30 THOUSAND dollars on an installation dinner? [/sarcasm]

So, I guess the FIRE SERVICE was the first group to get a BAILOUT plan, huh? :P

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As with any system, you need to do trial test. For example, find (purchase) the top 5 devices or packages you are looking into. Come up with a series of "test" to perform with each system. Anchor the device at pt A and go to pt B for playout time, crawl under "rubbish" to see if the system hangs up, perform several rappels on the device to see the problems if any, etc... From there you will find the one that fits your department the best. It may be that a combination of systems work best for your department.

Mfire, you got half of my post right on track. We tested multiple systems. 1 worked very well when the member jumped. But when we did field tests, a member on a call exited the rig, got his can, walked 50 feet from the rig toward the incident then stopped. He was hooked to the rig and could not proceed. We dropped that system.

I also wrote: "Interesting that everyone takes about the law and what they bought or have not bought. How many depts have actually done a written risk assessment 1st like the law requires?"

Has anybody done this? The reason this is part of the law was not to make you figure out which system, but do you need a system? DOL/PESH made it very clear that not every dept. or every ff needs a bailout "system". If the only buildings in your district are 2 story single family and you can ladder 4 sides then your bailout "system" is 4 ladders. If you have 10 story office or multiple dwellings a 50' bailout "system" does not meet the standard, but a roof rope system that is actually brought to the roof does. Part of the risk assessment is to determine what are the risks to firefighters. The #1 risk is not being trapped without a bailout or jumping or falling. The #1 risk is cardiac stress. Most depts can identify members who have had cardiac problems, and many can even id LODD because of it. How many depts (other than FDNY) can document a member has jumped or died at a window (because of no bailout system)? What about back 7 knee injuries? How many have been career ending? We can document many of both injuries and LODD from cardiac, but not one case of a problem because of a lack of a bailout system. Most FF's have a great concern for being trapped, but thats not what is killing our members. Lets consider reducing our LODD & injuries without the histerics that has gone allong with this law.

This does not mean we should not give something to our members. But before racing out to buy something because FDNY has it....THINK. If you have made a purchase, trained the members, issued the gear you are still not in compliance with the law because you missed step #1.

Has anyone noticed that NYS is the only state that requires this? What do other states and city's do? Is this a real problem for the fire service or is this a problem only in NY?

There are a great many STATE laws that don't apply to cities of 1 million or more because they have different or more stringent CITY laws. It's possible that the City passed a local law on the subject.

NYC has no law requiring it. Since NYC had purchased a system the legislature felt it was not needed to mandate them to do it. The problem is, the reason that members had to jump (in the incident that started all of this) is FDNY had retired all of its personnel ropes when they hit the 10 year life expectancy. So in 10 years when the current gear is to be retired they do not have to replace it, but the rest of us do.

If you can find any more information about such a court decision, please post a citation so others may find it.

There is no court decision.

Association Sues State Over Rope Reg

http://www.nysfirechiefs.com/LatestNewsSto...?nSI=1668148794

November 26, 2008

On November 26, 2008 in Albany County, the New York State Association of Fire Chiefs, the Verdoy Fire District, the Association of Fire Districts State of New York, and FASNY filed a petition in Albany County Supreme Court against the New York State Department of Labor in connection with the Life Safety Rope Regulation.

Specifically, the group is requesting an Article 78 Proceeding reviewing the creation of the regulation and enjoining its enforcement. Among other things, an Article 78 Procedure is used to ensure that a state agency properly follows administrative rules created under New York State’s Administrative and Procedure Act Law (SAPA).

The concerned parties claim that the regulation should be revoked and set aside for several reasons that are both legal and technical in nature. It should be pointed out that the Department of Labor issued a memo opposing the legislation that was eventually signed into law and necessitated the regulation. The groups also state that the law is flawed, thereby making appropriate regulation virtually impossible.

Over the next several weeks more information will be forthcoming. In the interim each fire department must make every effort to come into compliance with the new regulation.Our first goal is to obtain an injunction to nullify the November 1, 2008 compliance date for the regulation until the Department of Labor can appropriately explain how fire departments can implement the new regulations while we await the Article 78 hearing.

Note: no injucntion was issued by the court.

This was my 1,000 post........I think its a good one :lol:

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A question about the EXO.. My turnout pants open on the right, but I've read that the EXO needs a left side opening harness.. Has there been a modification to the system yet to allow it to be carried on the left instead of right?

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We aren't meeting the standard yet!!!

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A question about the EXO.. My turnout pants open on the right, but I've read that the EXO needs a left side opening harness.. Has there been a modification to the system yet to allow it to be carried on the left instead of right?

You are correct, right opening Gemtor harness is incompatible with the EXO. Petzel offers another harness that is compatible with right opening pants. .

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Just to make sure I get this right, the Gemtor 541NYC-R harness will not work with the Petzl systems? All of our bunker pants open to the right, does this mean we're going to have to buy harnesses that go the opposite direction of our pants opening now?

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Risk assessement and SOG is done, now I'm waiting for my systems to get here. We went with the RIT class 2 harness and the PRESS system. 25 to be issued to the members and 3 baiout bags for training. When they get here 8 FF's will be trained as instructors. Our new firehouse which is almost done has a bailout window incorporated into it alog with a "confined space" hole.

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Another note on doing an assessment of your area, this includes mutual aide your dept. may go on, on a "regular basis". So if your district has only 2 story pd's and 1 or 2 story taxpayers BUT you go mutual aide on a regular basis (not 1 or 2 times a year) to a dept. that has 4 story buildings, then you need a system in place to play.

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Another note on doing an assessment of your area, this includes mutual aide your dept. may go on, on a "regular basis". So if your district has only 2 story pd's and 1 or 2 story taxpayers BUT you go mutual aide on a regular basis (not 1 or 2 times a year) to a dept. that has 4 story buildings, then you need a system in place to play.

Thats why we had to go with the system we went with, because of mutual aid

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Mohegan is buying and training every interior firefighter in the Petzl EXO escape system

I looked at the Petzl system and they will not sell it unless you have someone get trained by them, or they come to your Department to train you. Also this system is close to $400.00....... Here is a link http://www.allhandsfire.com/exo.html

Edited by x134

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