Texas Department May Pay Volunteers

[x635 4,066]

Texas Department May Pay Volunteers

Posted on Sun, Feb. 08, 2009

By ELIZABETH CAMPBELLliz@star-telegram.com

JOSHUA —During the past two years, volunteer firefighters have felt the strain of increasing calls as the area continues to grow.

Joshua is considering plans to create a paid fire department because of high call volume and the strain placed on volunteers who can’t always get to the scene of an emergency, said Mike Peacock, the city’s emergency management coordinator.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1191956.html

[Guest]

Any idea on the actual call volume there?

[DCJPells 29]

From their website http://www.joshuafd.com/

Total Calls 2007- 926 2008- 1163

[CPAGE 2]

The FD's Web page . LINK: http://www.joshuafd.com/welcome.html

[helicopper 1,050]

Joshua is a suburb of Fort Worth (about 18 miles to the South) and has a population of about 4500. I'm not sure the size of the fire district but the city is 6.5 square miles.

[abaduck 123]

Is it just me or doesn't that quite add up? Population 4500, 1100 calls per year... that's a call for every fourth person, every year! That seems an extraordinary call volume... we run about 650 a year for a population of 12,000.

[TXCHIEF 9]

Knowing the area fairly well the city of Joshua is beginning to get the growth that is moving out west from the Fort Worth and its eastern suburbs. Another reason towards career staffing has to due with the vast majority of volunteers working out of the city and most recently in 2008 the FD lost their state certification in running their ambulance due to lack of Paramedic certified personal. They do cover a larger area than just the City of Joshua, its a smart move on their part in making this move and planning to provide the protection and services need for their growing community

[NYRangers30 1]

"For a volunteer department of 30 people, it’s stretching pretty thin," Peacock said. "Sometimes, we’ve missed calls, and it’s taxing for volunteers."

that's scary to see 30 guys handling 1163 calls

[x129K 1,393]

"For a volunteer department of 30 people, it’s stretching pretty thin," Peacock said. "Sometimes, we’ve missed calls, and it’s taxing for volunteers."

that's scary to see 30 guys handling 1163 calls

How many career departments run with less?

[Raz 14]

How many career departments run with less?

Apples and oranges. According to ISO rating, 30 full time career FF's is the equivalent of 90 volunteers.

[firemoose827 324]

Everyone has staffing issues, regardless. Its finding a solution that should be more important to us all. Thirty volunteers are stressed to the limit with 1100 calls a year, just like asking 2 career firefighters to handle a fire alone in the initial stages of the fire. Each situation is dangerous and each situation needs a solution so we stop loosing firefighters.

I have not been around my station much in the past year- why?- because its scary. I have officers that have very little training. I have new members that were an explorer join our dept and are allowed to immediately go interior...because they were an explorer. We have SOP's and By-laws...that no one, officers included, ever follow unless it pertains to them...Its becoming a scary place to be in, and I am just depressed as hell to think that we might be the next Secret List E-mail you receive. I feel that turning the busier volunteer stations across the nation into a combination department would only help it become better. How many career staff would that create? How would that effect the training levels of the firefighters? In turn, how would that affect the service we provide to the people? I say it would be a tremendously Positive affect, and turn things around finally for the better. I wish our area would start researching the possibility of creating Combination departments too, it would make things much better from an emergency service standpoint.

Sorry for the rant, just been a real issue with me for some time now and it affects my passion for the fire service that I used to have.

[firecapt32 282]

Rant away moose-- sometimes in this business we have to do that for our own sanity. Plus its good for the soul now that you have gotten that off your chest I am sure you feel better.

Fixing the fire service is something that is on going and very slow--wait I mean very slow but I do believe it is headed in the right direction although it is two steps forward on step back it is moving.

There are departments out there that are stuck in the 60's(nice times) and then there are progressive departments that just make you smile with the way they are run.

now look whos ranting

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Is it just me or doesn't that quite add up? Population 4500, 1100 calls per year... that's a call for every fourth person, every year! That seems an extraordinary call volume... we run about 650 a year for a population of 12,000.

Can't always go simply by that duck. Population demographics also have a lot to do with it. They may provide more services then you do as well. Also If you were to run EMS your numbers would be much much higher.

Look at where I am at...our population is at a minimum double of yours (those that were actually counted) and in only about 4.4 sq. miles. With your 650 calls you would think we would be about just double that. But with our total fire and ems combined we are usually around the 4000 mark.

Bravo to them for a progressive move and not putting the blinders on and telling themselves there's not a problem. I hope a few of them can even make the transition and become a professional firefighter within the department.

Edited February 11, 2009 by alsfirefighter

[abaduck 123]

Can't always go simply by that duck. Population demographics also have a lot to do with it. They may provide more services then you do as well. Also If you were to run EMS your numbers would be much much higher.

Look at where I am at...our population is at a minimum double of yours (those that were actually counted) and in only about 4.4 sq. miles. With your 650 calls you would think we would be about just double that. But with our total fire and ems combined we are usually around the 4000 mark.

I hear you bro but even then... we respond to EMS calls 8am-6pm. And your (round numbers) 24,000++ pop., 4000 calls, that's still significantly less than they run per head. Guess there must be a lot of sick people in Joshua!... or maybe they get a lot of brush fires. Demographics, as you say.

Bravo to them for a progressive move and not putting the blinders on and telling themselves there's not a problem. I hope a few of them can even make the transition and become a professional firefighter within the department.

Agreed 100%... it's called remembering who you serve, and why you exist, and putting that ahead of politics and personal agendas.

Edited February 11, 2009 by abaduck

[exmrvfc 0]

Apples and oranges. According to ISO rating, 30 full time career FF's is the equivalent of 90 volunteers.

Question on the 3 to 1 ratio from ISO. Does ISO rate each career member "on shift" as equal to 3 volunteers? Since a volunteer doesn't make every call but on average 1 out of the three will be there thus 3 volunteers for every career FF on shift.

[Goose 188]

Sounds like the kind of mindset we need more of in Westchester.

[16fire5 693]

Question on the 3 to 1 ratio from ISO. Does ISO rate each career member "on shift" as equal to 3 volunteers? Since a volunteer doesn't make every call but on average 1 out of the three will be there thus 3 volunteers for every career FF on shift.

I'm not the ISO expert but here's how I understand it. It's on shift career firefighters to average volunteer response. So a career engine staffed with 3 gets you a better rating than a volunteer engine that averages 8 for fires. The ratio used to be highter 1-4 or 1-5. Realize ISO does this because they know career staff is for the most part better trained but most importantly faster at response. A volunteer from home response has no chance of matching in house staffed apparatus response. ISO is not putting volunteers down remember qtip but realize they suffer on average less fire loss in the career staffed areas. There are others on this board with better ISO knowledge and could answer questions on this.

[gamewell45 258]

I'm not the ISO expert but here's how I understand it. It's on shift career firefighters to average volunteer response. So a career engine staffed with 3 gets you a better rating than a volunteer engine that averages 8 for fires. The ratio used to be highter 1-4 or 1-5. Realize ISO does this because they know career staff is for the most part better trained but most importantly faster at response. A volunteer from home response has no chance of matching in house staffed apparatus response. ISO is not putting volunteers down remember qtip but realize they suffer on average less fire loss in the career staffed areas. There are others on this board with better ISO knowledge and could answer questions on this.

What about volunteer houses who roster FF's that bunk in and have round the clock coverage? Does it make a difference in the ISO rating?

[Guest]

What about volunteer houses who roster FF's that bunk in and have round the clock coverage? Does it make a difference in the ISO rating?

From what I had understood, though I may be wrong, it isn't really "volunteer" and "career" addressed by ISO, its in station and home response.

[gamewell45 258]

From what I had understood, though I may be wrong, it isn't really "volunteer" and "career" addressed by ISO, its in station and home response.

Thanks for your fast reply.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm not the ISO expert but here's how I understand it. It's on shift career firefighters to average volunteer response. So a career engine staffed with 3 gets you a better rating than a volunteer engine that averages 8 for fires. The ratio used to be highter 1-4 or 1-5. Realize ISO does this because they know career staff is for the most part better trained but most importantly faster at response. A volunteer from home response has no chance of matching in house staffed apparatus response. ISO is not putting volunteers down remember qtip but realize they suffer on average less fire loss in the career staffed areas. There are others on this board with better ISO knowledge and could answer questions on this.

For all structure alarms ISO wants a minimum of 12 "on-duty" FF's and an IC or 36 "on-call" FF's and an IC......THis is where the 3:1 ratio comes in.

ISO does not care if you are paid or not. They only consider if you are in the fire station or not.

They have not had 1-4 or 1-5 since at least the 1940's if ever.

It has nothing to do with training. Training is a seperate component in the rating.

Rolling out with a fully staffed response is faster and more coordinated. Remember fire doubles every minute so if a fire has 2% of the structure upon tone out of the call and it takes 3 minutes to get there, it could have 16% upon arrival, if it takes 2 more minutes to arrive and get organized in theory it could be 64%.

[99subi 121]

i should move out there to get a FF job lol

[JM15 386]

i should move out there to get a FF job lol

Probabally easier than getting hired in Westchester.

[JohnnyOV 2]

The concept is very simple, and I don't understand what the argument is about on here.

Who cares about ISO ratings and number of volunteers / career guys..if there is a problem fix it.

The department recognized that they needed help, recruitment for volunteers was not working out for them and they needed to find a different way to tackle the problem. If they decided that the appropriate outlet was to hire Paid guys, then good for them. I wish departments around here who have problems like they do, recognize it, and follow suit.

[DCJPells 29]

From the Fire Suppression Rating Schedule 2003 edition

570. EXISTING COMPANY PERSONNEL (ECP):Existing company personnel is the average number of fire fighters and company officers on duty

for existing companies determined by the following criteria:

A. On-Duty Strength (OM):The total number of members on duty with companies shall be taken as a yearly average considering vacations, sick leave and other absences.

Chiefs' aides shall be included in company strength if they participate in fire-fighting operations. Administrative personnel will not be included in this item.

Members on apparatus not credited under Items 513 and 549 that regularly respond to first alarms to aid engine, ladder and service companies shall be included in this item as increasing total company strength.

Personnel staffing ambulances or other units serving the general public shall be credited if

they participate in fire-fighting operations, the number depending upon the extent to which

they are available and are used for response to first alarms of fire.

B. Call and Volunteer Members (VM):Call and volunteer members shall be credited on the basis of the average number staffing apparatus on first alarms. Off-shift paid members responding on first alarms shall be considered on the same basis as call and volunteer members.

Call and volunteer members sleeping at fire stations shall be considered as on-duty members (OM) for the proportional time they are on duty.

C. Automatic-Aid Response:The average number of personnel responding with those companies credited as automatic aid under Items 513 and 549 shall be considered in A and B above. The actual number to be added to OM and VM is the average number of personnel responding multiplied by the value of AAi determined in Item 512.D.

D. Special Apparatus:Personnel responding to first alarms on special apparatus such as squad and salvage trucks

shall be considered in A and B above.

E. Service, Pumper-Service and Pumper-Ladder Trucks:When a service truck has been credited in Item 549, it shall be considered as one existing service company in Item 571. When a pumper-service truck has been credited in Items 513 and 549, it shall be considered as one existing engine company and as one existing service company in Item 571. When a pumper-ladder truck has been credited in Items 513 and 549, it shall be considered as one existing engine company and as one existing ladder company in Item 571.

[Guest]

Is that why people put pumps on their trucks, so they can count as both an engine company and a truck company for the ISO?