Why 2000 GPM?

[x635 4,066]

Why are so many department spec'ing 2000GPM pumps, when there's a 99.9% chance the pump won't ever be used at that capacity (in a structural engine)?

Realistically, it would take at least two LDH intakes to feed the pump to get that capacity. And most engines don't need that to even flow at all discharges. But it seems to becoming the standard.

Just curious if I am forgetting something from my MPO training?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

So you can be bigger and badder then the next guy, even after 6 years you still don't know to pump it !

[NWFDMedic 58]

I can only speak for my department but 2000 GPM has been a requirement of ours for several years along with 5 inch LDH as opposed to 4 inch. Mainly it had to do with research done by an ex-chief regarding water flow needed to attack a fire at the "fuel farms" in our district. That's also why we maintain a foam engine.

[Deputy Chief Doug 0]

a 1500 gpm pump and a 2000 gpm pump are the same casting, just as a 1000 and a 1250 are the same. it is the number and size of discharges that detemines rating and then to get rating you need the second intake. as a side note my ladder has a 1750 rated pump(only drivers side intake) they use a 3" suction along with a 6" to get the flow

[Guest]

Lower RPM's, and it costs hardly anything to get the extra capacity so why not have it.

[Deputy Chief Doug 0]

Lower RPM's, and it costs hardly anything to get the extra capacity so why not have it.

has nothing to do with RPM's thats just gearing in the transfer case

[Guest alsfirefighter]

2000 GPM is often the most common pump size for Quints and I can't remember what upstate department it was but they ordered a few Quints with only 1000 GPM pumps and after receiving a couple realized the capacities weren't enough for their operations. For engines I honestly wonder in some capacities if those handling the specifications even know what it entails as far as operation. Having a 2000 GPM pump, particularly in areas where the water supply system cannot supplement that volume to begin with adds on other issues, such as making it more difficult to perform pump tests. KISS. It works very well.

[M' Ave 1,466]

My job has gone to 2000 gpm pumps. It had little too no impact on cost and the reason cited is; should any event, natural or otherwise, compromise our century old water system, we'd like to have the ability to draft and pump long distances and supply other units. This is similar to the reason that the new fire boats have 50,000 gpm pumps.

Will it ever be necessary? I sincerely hope not.

Is it necessary for us all to have this capacity? No, but it's easier to keep the rigs the same for cost and multiple company interoperability.

[IzzyEng4 427]

a 1500 gpm pump and a 2000 gpm pump are the same casting, just as a 1000 and a 1250 are the same. it is the number and size of discharges that detemines rating and then to get rating you need the second intake. as a side note my ladder has a 1750 rated pump(only drivers side intake) they use a 3" suction along with a 6" to get the flow

You forgot to add the impeller size also counts towards the rating as well as engine / motor horsepower to drive a fire pump is also a necessary requirement to power. The greater the gallons per minute, the higher the horsepower has to be to drive the pump properly to achive the rate gallon per minute or greater at XXX amount of PSI.

[on the job 68]

has nothing to do with RPM's thats just gearing in the transfer case

Don't forget the motor itself, now a days you can get these 500+ horse power motors that can handle 2000 gpm, "IF" you can get the water, why not ?

Most tower ladders with pumps now a days come with 2000 gpm.

[Dondestro 9]

Ask the brewster guys how many gpms they flowed this past weekend at the tanker shuttle drill they did! They had four ponds set up with two 6in suction lines and mooved over 400,000gallons in 3 and a half hours.. all they needed was one engine to supply there tower as well as putnum lakes deck gun.

[Guest]

Transfer case? This one I have to hear/read.

[Ex-2114 7]

Why a 2000GPM pump??? Here's one for you: prepare for the worst, hope for the best!!!

It's far better to have and not need rather to need and not have.

For the cost differential, it's truly a no-brainer. If there's a $5000 increase, scale back on some of the light show, that's all.

[FFPCogs 863]

Why 2000 gpm? Why not? In today's fire service overkill is king. And everyone knows bigger or more is always better right?. Yes today a job that used to be handled by 2 - 1000gpm engines and a truck now requires 4 - 2000gpm engines and 2 - 2000gpm quints plus a rescue thrown in because we must have RIT and the RIT must have a RIT. We must be able to supply 6 handlines per engine even though we never actually use more than 2 per for safety sake. Not to mention rehab since none of us can work a job for more than 15 minutes without having to rehab for an hour. So why not a line of 2000gpm buses sitting along the road in areas where the water supply can't maintian those flows and most fires require only two or three handlines? It's got to be better, it's bigger, it's new and hey the next department over just got one and we have to keep up.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Ask the brewster guys how many gpms they flowed this past weekend at the tanker shuttle drill they did! They had four ponds set up with two 6in suction lines and mooved over 400,000gallons in 3 and a half hours.. all they needed was one engine to supply there tower as well as putnum lakes deck gun.

OK..but what if someone could show you that you could do the same with a 1500 GPM pump...

I'm not knocking the 2000 GPM pump thing if you think you can make it work..I just don't see why when you know you don't have the capacity to utilize it to its capacity other then saying it has a 2000 GPM pump. You also have to know how to maximize its capabilities.

[dadbo46 50]

Why 2000 gpm? Why not? In today's fire service overkill is king. And everyone knows bigger or more is always better right?. Yes today a job that used to be handled by 2 - 1000gpm engines and a truck now requires 4 - 2000gpm engines and 2 - 2000gpm quints plus a rescue thrown in because we must have RIT and the RIT must have a RIT. We must be able to supply 6 handlines per engine even though we never actually use more than 2 per for safety sake. Not to mention rehab since none of us can work a job for more than 15 minutes without having to rehab for an hour. So why not a line of 2000gpm buses sitting along the road in areas where the water supply can't maintian those flows and most fires require only two or three handlines? It's got to be better, it's bigger, it's new and hey the next department over just got one and we have to keep up.

I couldn't have said it better !

[STAT213 332]

OK..but what if someone could show you that you could do the same with a 1500 GPM pump...

I'm not knocking the 2000 GPM pump thing if you think you can make it work..I just don't see why when you know you don't have the capacity to utilize it to its capacity other then saying it has a 2000 GPM pump. You also have to know how to maximize its capabilities.

Yup, I've flowed WAY more than 1500 GPM out of my 1500 GPM pump. WAY more.

[Deputy Chief Doug 0]

that's because 1500gpm is at draft. on a plug you'll get lots more. just to say it again and I checked with my pump mechanic tonight to check myself, it is the same pump. impeller and all. it's gearing in the transfer case, horsepower( not even an issue now adays), intake water and discharge water.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Come on, 2000 gpm is so 1990s, we have 2250 gpm pumps now!

If you need it get it, if you don't then you don't need it. I was a 2000 gpm pumper at work and when we go mutual aid, we are a source pumper usually drafting from a pond and feeding a long lay of 5" hose. There have been times in the past, as I was told, where our pumper was drafting off of both sides and feeding two 5" inch lines. The you would need that extra gpm.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Another reason for 2,000 gpm is ISO requires that you dispatch the minimum pump capacity to meet the NFF (needed fire flow) of upto 3500 gpm. Many larger commercial buildings have NFF of 3500 - 6000 gpm. With 1,500 gpm you need 3 engines, with 2,000 gpm you need only 2.

[M' Ave 1,466]

that's because 1500gpm is at draft. on a plug you'll get lots more. just to say it again and I checked with my pump mechanic tonight to check myself, it is the same pump. impeller and all. it's gearing in the transfer case, horsepower( not even an issue now adays), intake water and discharge water.

Are you certain about that draft vs. hydrant thing? I believe that you can get maximum capacity out of a drafting situation. A GREAT hydrant might allow you 1000 to 1500 GPM. You can't go into vacuum on a hydrant.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I was surprised to see FDNY going to 2000gpm. M Ave answered as to why, but as is the case many times, once it becomes the norm in FDNY, many other Departments will follow.

Edited September 16, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[antiquefirelt 994]

Are you certain about that draft vs. hydrant thing? I believe that you can get maximum capacity out of a drafting situation.

I've flowed 3300 gpm with a 1500 gpm pumper on a hydrant! Now that we have 5" LDH I'll bet we can do more. This was on a hydrant rated for about 4200 gpm @ 20 psi.

If you can get the water via multiple inlets and you can get it out via numerous large discharges, the pump becomes a large manifold with some pressure boosting power. At draft the pump will be near it's max capacity as rated. Some pumps are able to get more but basically once you exceed 165 psi at draft, you're maxed out. Because pumps work on Net Discharge Pressure (NDP) not Engine Pressure to attain high volume flows, you can subtract a large portion of the incoming flow pressure from an outside source such as a hydrant or relay pumper.

Edited September 16, 2009 by antiquefirelt