Chimney Fire Tactics

[x129K 1,393]

Discuss your department's chimney fire tactics...residential dwellings.

Do you use "chains" to knock the crap off the walls?

Plastic baggies with dry chem? Chimfex?

Stretch a line or not?

[post4031 16]

Discuss your department's chimney fire tactics...residential dwellings.

Do you use "chains" to knock the crap off the walls?

Plastic baggies with dry chem? Chimfex?

Stretch a line or not?

1)Empty the fire box.

2)Check for extension.

3)Gain access to the roof and flue.

4)If fire is present in the flue, Chimfex once or twice, then chains if still not out we have chimney nozzles. To my knowledge it has only been used once in a masonry chimney that was already shot and needed to be replaced. That was years ago, 99% of the time Chimfex and chains does it.

Never heard of plastic baggies and dry chem....neat idea.

[wraftery 1,275]

1)Empty the fire box.

2)Check for extension.

3)Gain access to the roof and flue.

4)If fire is present in the flue, Chimfex once or twice, then chains if still not out we have chimney nozzles. To my knowledge it has only been used once in a masonry chimney that was already shot and needed to be replaced. That was years ago, 99% of the time Chimfex and chains does it.

Never heard of plastic baggies and dry chem....neat idea.

1. Line to room as backup. More lines if indicated

2, Put out fire in box w/ AFFF 2 1/2 gal can ( Steam from this also quiets chimney fire a little)

3. Chains down from top (if no chimney chains any chains on a rope will do) Then Afff from top.

4. Afff at bottom to handle any drop-down chunks

5 Do a good overhaul annd secondary search around chimney, attic

Edited January 4, 2010 by wraftery

[Patch6713 18]

1) We empty the fireplace or woodstove.

2) We spray a dry chem extinguisher up the chimney until it comes out of the top of the chimney and there is no more fire present.

3) If step 2 didn't work, we have chains that we will use. It is part of our policy to avoid unnecessarily going on the roof.

[x129K 1,393]

It is part of our policy to avoid unnecessarily going on the roof.

Wow...really? Was there a past injury or something that made the department look to avoid the roof?

Do you guys have an aerial?

[bmfd231 3]

We use the method most talking about using Chemfex. We learned a new method when the Chemfex company burned down years ago (Chemfex is now available again though)

Here is the new method

Clear the box

Set up positive pressure fan (we have an electric one for this purpose) - use at a low to medium speed.

Fan directed to fire place area

Use dry chem extinguisher and spray in spurts up the chimney til out.

Precautions with this procedure - The pressure of the fan can cause fire thru defects in the chimney into the structure, therefore you must make a thorough TIC inspection of the chimney to the attic.

Advantages of the procedure, if roof is steep or snow covered, you do not need FF's on the roof.

[mfc2257 464]

Well south of the Mason Dixon now so past experience is all I've got....

Best chimney firefighting SOP's I've experienced were in college in Gettysburg, PA. Tried to bring some of it home to Millwood but got the usual Westchester "we know it all attitude" and barely got a set of chimney bombs (plastic baggies with dry chem) on the rigs as a result.... Rumor has it that they've been removed since.

HOWEVER I used to run 10+ serious chimney fires a year and the following always worked:

1: Make sure a truck company is there to have competent people on the roof

2: Use sand or dry chem via shovel to extinguish fire in fire box. Extinguishers only add to property damage. Leave exterior door open.

3: Place sheet of plywood over front of fireplace.

4: Have PPV in place (not necessarily running) at exterior door

4: Have crew on roof drop 1lb bags (preferably from the produce section of the grocery store because they melt easy) of dry chem into chimney.

4: Place metal plate over top of chimney, close exterior door.

5: Allow fire to suffocate in chimney.

6: Use PPV, exterior door, and roof crew to mitigate smoke condition via chimney as it is the most efficient way to expel smoke after fire has been extinguished.

7: The following should always be deployed as a backup: Uncharged line at firebox, uncharged line on roof, dry chem at fire box, chains on roof, utility rope on roof, pike pole or haligan on roof to be tied to rope, metal can to remove debris from fire box.

Chimfex, AFFF, wet water, and dry chem via pressurized extinguisher only add to property damage.

It doesn't take much to put a chimney fire out. It also doesn't take much for a chimney fire to put a house on the ground.

[x635 4,066]

Great topic!

Just out of curiosity, does any department actively promote chimmney cleaning before the cold season as a method of fire prevention?

[Patch6713 18]

Wow...really? Was there a past injury or something that made the department look to avoid the roof?

Do you guys have an aerial?

We do now have an aerial that we use.

As for previous injuries, I believe that awhile back a person (or persons) have fallen off of the roof. We will go on the roof if there is a reason for it we just don't do it just to do it. It works very well for us.

Also to add to our procedure, we always check with the TIC for any extinsion.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Patch6713

[antiquefirelt 994]

I've been to a fair share of chimney fires and we still find zip lock baggies of dry chem work best in most cases. We will put out the fire in the stove/fireplace, then drop the bags. We have a chimney chain we also use once the fire is extinguished. We also often use snowballs when available and find they work as well as dry chem bombs without being too much and cracking the liner like the booster reels. Last trick is the use of a cast iron pan of water in the stove: snuffs both the fire in the stove and the chimney. Thankfully our chimney runs have been way down in the last few years.

I must say I've never stretched or seen a line stretched to the roof and would be slightly concerned with charging the line while being up there, and pushing guys off? We do carry a piece of 1.75" six feet long with a fog tip in the Tower bucket for whatever need that arises, but never seen it used or asked for it on a chimney. Really just there for clearing up eaves/soffit issues.

[mfc2257 464]

I've been to a fair share of chimney fires and we still find zip lock baggies of dry chem work best in most cases. We will put out the fire in the stove/fireplace, then drop the bags. We have a chimney chain we also use once the fire is extinguished. We also often use snowballs when available and find they work as well as dry chem bombs without being too much and cracking the liner like the booster reels. Last trick is the use of a cast iron pan of water in the stove: snuffs both the fire in the stove and the chimney. Thankfully our chimney runs have been way down in the last few years.

I must say I've never stretched or seen a line stretched to the roof and would be slightly concerned with charging the line while being up there, and pushing guys off? We do carry a piece of 1.75" six feet long with a fog tip in the Tower bucket for whatever need that arises, but never seen it used or asked for it on a chimney. Really just there for clearing up eaves/soffit issues.

Uncharged lined to the roof.... It gives you the option of working with an educated MPO to place small amounts of water when needed to create a steam situation within the chimney to fight the fire as well as having a suppression option to retreat to the aerial with if the situation progresses. A fully charged line on the roof working at 100+gpm isn't the intended use nor should it be.

Again... bring an uncharged line up the stick to the roof to have it if you need it. If you're working in a rural area where the nearest truck is teens or twenties of miles away, do your roof work with the uncharged line at the base of your ground ladder. Have a length of rope to secure it to the chimney if you need to go down and get it.

Also.... The usual saw equipment for roof operations should be gathered by the chauffers and ready to go (ie: started and warmed up) because as everyone knows chimney fires turn into structure fires all the time right under our noses.

[x129K 1,393]

That was my next question - hpw many departments treat chimney fires as an actual house fire? Take aproactive approach in case of extension, as opposed to reactive?

Or are we too "non-chalant" about them?

[mfc2257 464]

That was my next question - hpw many departments treat chimney fires as an actual house fire? Take aproactive approach in case of extension, as opposed to reactive?

Or are we too "non-chalant" about them?

We're way way way way too lax about chimney fires....

A chimney fire is still a fire. It doesn't take long for it to be an attic fire just like an oven fire doesn't take long to be a kitchen fire.... Today most departments don't take a pro-active approach to anything... How many guys get off a rig in SCBA's for a CO alarm????... They learn quickly when they're getting a headache while reading the meter in a house that has a REAL CO situation.

[post4031 16]

That was my next question - hpw many departments treat chimney fires as an actual house fire? Take aproactive approach in case of extension, as opposed to reactive?

Or are we too "non-chalant" about them?

Structure.....

[wraftery 1,275]

1. Line to room as backup. More lines if indicated

2, Put out fire in box w/ AFFF 2 1/2 gal can ( Steam from this also quiets chimney fire a little)

3. Chains down from top (if no chimney chains any chains on a rope will do) Then Afff from top.

4. Afff at bottom to handle any drop-down chunks

5 Do a good overhaul annd secondary search around chimney, attic

I always had a Reason for doing what I did:

Line to interior..obviously treated sa a structure fire

AFFF...because dry chem will reignite if the surface is hot

Chains...to gently as possible knock down the creosote chunks..does no more damage than the chimney sweeps brushes

No PPV on attack...even the PPV gurus tell us that we need control of the openings (both interior and exterior) before using PPV. I have never had that control. For an example, look at something like a hi hat light. The fixture is loaded with vent holes. PPV will make good use of those holes to move fire where you don't want it. You would never open a wide angle fog line in the front doorway because it pushes fire. Why then would you start up a fan which does the same thing? Locate, CONFINE, extinguish...these three words are right up there with CRAWL.

PS:For overhaul, PPV is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why now? You now can control the openings. Before you Attack PPV guys start throwing rocks at me, give me a little warning so I can get my helmet on.

[flyboy14295 4]

How many guys get off a rig in SCBA's for a CO alarm????...

Not enough. I get a pack for everything that i might possibly breathe something in thats not air.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We run the response to chimney fires one level under our structure fire assignment. A structure gets a full first alarm which calls in off duty and POC personnel, a chimney fire gets the same apparatus, but no call in unless short staffed. Tis was a change after a local FD got "schooled" by their ISO rater that a chimney fire was a fire with a structure and required the same response noting that they'd lose credit unless this was changed. Before my time, they sent just the Ladder, and amazingly never got burned (pun intended).

While I have been to few chimney fires that have extended into the structure, not one was a fast moving fire with rescue concerns. Could it happen, certainly and we're prepared for it, but in most cases, they're more truck work intensive fires with lots of digging and ensuring we've found it all. TICs have saved a lot of work and property in this use. Normally, chimney fires are immediately investigated fro extension and finding none treated much more gingerly than a structure fire with regard to special care to not mess up the house, using runners, limiting smoke inside, and not wearing SCBA and leaving marks on the walls.

Like almost all fire related calls, we require SCBA to be worn on all CO runs. If the hand detector goes into alarm (35 ppm) you must mask up. Levels over 9 ppm are considered abnormal and require some type of action, usually from furnace/boiler technician.

[antiquefirelt 994]

No PPV on attack...even the PPV gurus tell us that we need control of the openings (both interior and exterior) before using PPV. I have never had that control. For an example, look at something like a hi hat light. The fixture is loaded with vent holes. PPV will make good use of those holes to move fire where you don't want it. You would never open a wide angle fog line in the front doorway because it pushes fire. Why then would you start up a fan which does the same thing? Locate, CONFINE, extinguish...these three words are right up there with CRAWL.

PS:For overhaul, PPV is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why now? You now can control the openings. Before you Attack PPV guys start throwing rocks at me, give me a little warning so I can get my helmet on.

I was right there with you on PPV until this last month's Fire Engineering. The article about PPV/PPA written by the Salt Lake City guys addressed some of the more significant concerns I've always had with PPV/PPA. Much of their research was done in conjunction with NIST and the testing seems valid.

I'm far from sold, but I'm much more interested in doing more research, taking their class and trying it out again. We used to attempt PPV and had very poor results, though I must admit the dept back then just did stuff with very little thought and quality training. Thankfully we abandoned the practice before someone was hurt. We still use the fans for after control ventilation.

[Remember585 815]

Never considered AFFF, always seen the chains used and/or chimney flares.

We treat it is a structure fire, which means a full assignment is dispatched.

Our Truck has the chains, and we keep metal cans to clear out a fireplace on both the Truck & Rescue.

Everyone gets off the rig for any inside smoke, chimney fire, CO call with PPE and SCBA. The Officer (or someone else at their discretion) brings the TIC and Gas Meter in from the Engine Companies.

Active chimney fire, dry line to the roof. Any smoke in the house or sign of extension, a line to the front door. Why not, right?

Edited January 4, 2010 by Remember585

[flyboy14295 4]

Never considered AFFF, always seen the chains used and/or chimney flares.

We treat it is a structure fire, which means a full assignment is dispatched.

Our Truck has the chains, and we keep metal cans to clear out a fireplace on both the Truck & Rescue.

Everyone gets off the rig for any inside smoke, chimney fire, CO call with PPE and SCBA. The Officer (or someone else at their discretion) brings the TIC and Gas Meter in from the Engine Companies.

Active chimney fire, dry line to the roof. Any smoke in the house or sign of extension, a line to the front door. Why not, right?

You guys don't pack up for residential or commercial calls? And I'm guessing you do pack up for gas calls but forgot to mention it.

[Guest]

Chimney Fires are treated as one step below a structure fire, and get two engines and one special service. Chains are used, with dry chem baggies as well. Dry line to the front door with engine officer and whoever else going to check for extension. SCBA worn on all street or box assignments until it can be shown they aren't needed. Boxes are any reported possible structure fires, street assignments being inside gas leaks, shed/unattached garage fires, odor but no visible smoke, chimney fire, investigation of an appliance or outlet. SCBA also obviously worn on auto or dumpster fires.

[Remember585 815]

You guys don't pack up for residential or commercial calls? And I'm guessing you do pack up for gas calls but forgot to mention it.

Yes. Didn't mention it because I didn't want to steer this thread off track and I assumed it was the generally accepted practice.

[wraftery 1,275]

I was right there with you on PPV until this last month's Fire Engineering. The article about PPV/PPA written by the Salt Lake City guys addressed some of the more significant concerns I've always had with PPV/PPA. Much of their research was done in conjunction with NIST and the testing seems valid.

I'm far from sold, but I'm much more interested in doing more research, taking their class and trying it out again. We used to attempt PPV and had very poor results, though I must admit the dept back then just did stuff with very little thought and quality training. Thankfully we abandoned the practice before someone was hurt. We still use the fans for after control ventilation.

I am not too old to change. But I've been to courses and demos by guys like Mittendorf and the West Coasters. The thing that always glares out to me is the CONTROL thing. The examples they use and the demos they build always have control because they built them to prove their point! Possibly NIST will be able to explain to me the scientific difference between Attack PPV and a Boy Scout blowing on a handful of tinder.

I personally favor the Coordinated Outside Vent/Interior Attack. Notice I said coordinated. It takes communications practice and finesse, but it works. I learned it in the early '70's from the Bronx guys when the "Bronx was Burning." The Bronx is still standing. The west Coast loses entire cities, as in "Well, we lost Oakland the other day." Then they build it back up with wood roofs again.

Sorry I left the thread on chimneys.

[Beekman 5]

1) Empty the fireplace/stove

2) PPV fan

3) Dry chem up the chimney

4) We have Chimney flares and chains if needed

We try to avoid the roof especially considering all the snow and ice we have now, One of our developments has the chimneys on the back of the townhouses with multiple roof lines that are a good 40 feet from grade. It would be great if we had a snorkel or Bronto.

[Chief1710 14]

We have an area of old cottage type homes that have been added to and added to. So for the most part they are poorly constructed homes with chimney's that also fall into question. Because of this it seems that over time we have taken an agressive approach to chimney fires. It is not uncommon for them to spread into the attic or the walls.

Our first due engine arrives and we split the crew two FF's to the roof with Chains and Two FF's and the Officer to the Fireplace or woodstove. The interior crew has a metal bucket, Nomex Tarp and water can. The Officer has the TIC.

Second Due Engine splits there crew 2 FF to assist the roof team and 2 to strech a line where directed to. As per riding assignments the 2nd due officer reports with the roof team.

This works well for us and have been doing if for years and like it. By splintting the crews up we can get the fire quickly reconed and put out and the chains down to eliminate the threat of extention. It can cause more damage to the chimney to drop the chains quickly and before the fire is out but it gets the fire out of the chimney and down to the firebox. We block off the entrance to the fireplace with whatever we have to keep the fire in there and have never had an issue of it flying out the bottom onto the FF at the bottom. If we arrive and the fire is blowing out the top of the chimney a line is streched to extinguish it. We have never use AFFF or the powder in a bag, Not sure why ,just never have

Our third due (Rescue) goes to staging at the rear of the first due engine and awaits further orders.

Upon arrival of any first due unit ,if they feel that this is more than a chimney fire the alarm is upgraded and our mutual aid preplan takes over

We do not have a ladder, One is dispatched mutual aid for working fire only(don't get me started on that policy)

[x129K 1,393]

We have an area of old cottage type homes that have been added to and added to. So for the most part they are poorly constructed homes with chimney's that also fall into question. Because of this it seems that over time we have taken an agressive approach to chimney fires. It is not uncommon for them to spread into the attic or the walls.

Our first due engine arrives and we split the crew two FF's to the roof with Chains and Two FF's and the Officer to the Fireplace or woodstove. The interior crew has a metal bucket, Nomex Tarp and water can. The Officer has the TIC.

Second Due Engine splits there crew 2 FF to assist the roof team and 2 to strech a line where directed to. As per riding assignments the 2nd due officer reports with the roof team.

This works well for us and have been doing if for years and like it. By splintting the crews up we can get the fire quickly reconed and put out and the chains down to eliminate the threat of extention. It can cause more damage to the chimney to drop the chains quickly and before the fire is out but it gets the fire out of the chimney and down to the firebox. We block off the entrance to the fireplace with whatever we have to keep the fire in there and have never had an issue of it flying out the bottom onto the FF at the bottom. If we arrive and the fire is blowing out the top of the chimney a line is streched to extinguish it. We have never use AFFF or the powder in a bag, Not sure why ,just never have

Our third due (Rescue) goes to staging at the rear of the first due engine and awaits further orders.

Upon arrival of any first due unit ,if they feel that this is more than a chimney fire the alarm is upgraded and our mutual aid preplan takes over

We do not have a ladder, One is dispatched mutual aid for working fire only(don't get me started on that policy)

Excellent!

[fireguy43 35]

We use the method most talking about using Chemfex. We learned a new method when the Chemfex company burned down years ago (Chemfex is now available again though)

Here is the new method

Clear the box

Set up positive pressure fan (we have an electric one for this purpose) - use at a low to medium speed.

Fan directed to fire place area

Use dry chem extinguisher and spray in spurts up the chimney til out.

Precautions with this procedure - The pressure of the fan can cause fire thru defects in the chimney into the structure, therefore you must make a thorough TIC inspection of the chimney to the attic.

Advantages of the procedure, if roof is steep or snow covered, you do not need FF's on the roof.

Wait a minute...... I appreciate the technical discussion as much as the next guy, but almost 2 pages of posts and no one made a comment about the Chemfex plant burning down? With all of the wiseguys that are on this site, no one picked up on that??? LMAO.... talk about sick irony.......

[FiftyOnePride 100]

It's pretty similar to what has been posted, removal of burning material from the "firebox," followed by chains and/or bombs. Tarps are placed for initial removal and any bouncing embers. Checking for extension is usually occurring during this process while the top of the chimney and the bottom are operating. Folks on the roof are packed up as well as anyone else entering the structure, dry line is stretched to the door.

How it is treated? A special kind of structure fire designation is the best way I can put it.

I am curious to see more about the use of PPA/V in extinguishment however.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Wait a minute...... I appreciate the technical discussion as much as the next guy, but almost 2 pages of posts and no one made a comment about the Chemfex plant burning down? With all of the wiseguys that are on this site, no one picked up on that??? LMAO.... talk about sick irony.......

I chuckled a bit at the irony, yes, but did not post!

[x129K 1,393]

I am curious to see more about the use of PPA/V in extinguishment however.

Indeed....quite interested as well.