Bailout System

[PFDRes47cue 653]

It was my understanding that it is now New York State law that every interior firefighter must have a bailout system. Am I wrong?

[Bnechis 3,961]

It was my understanding that it is now New York State law that every interior firefighter must have a bailout system. Am I wrong?

You are wrong. The law says every interior firefighter must have a second means of egress based on the type of structures in his/her response area. If all buildings are low, very tall (higher than bailout capability) or can be laddered or a roof rope team is always inplace, it is not required.

One of the biggest problems is that to many members have not read and understood the law, they just assume you need to spend money on equipment.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Bnechis

[PFDRes47cue 653]

You are wrong. The law says every interior firefighter must have a second means of egress based on the type of structures in his/her response area. If all buildings are low, very tall (higher than bailout capability) or can be laddered or a roof rope team is always inplace, it is not required.

One of the biggest problems is that to many members have not read and understood the law, they just assume you need to spend money on equipment.

I was not assuming just to spend money. When you say laddered, are you referring to ground ladders or an aerial ladder?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

One of the biggest problems is that to many members have not read and understood the law, they just assume you need to spend money on equipment.

I disagree, the biggest problem is that they spend money on equipment but have no idea how to use it or its limitation. Everyone SHOULD have a bailout system of some kind, even if its just a rope, if thats what works for you. But you gotta work with it to know what its/your limitations are. That's why I took my harness off my gear, I don't get enough practice with it, and half the time it just gets in the way. Rope and a hook is good enough for me, as long as it slows my descent I'm comfortable enough.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I disagree, the biggest problem is that they spend money on equipment but have no idea how to use it or its limitation. Everyone SHOULD have a bailout system of some kind, even if its just a rope, if thats what works for you. But you gotta work with it to know what its/your limitations are. That's why I took my harness off my gear, I don't get enough practice with it, and half the time it just gets in the way. Rope and a hook is good enough for me, as long as it slows my descent I'm comfortable enough.

I agree with you 100% that everyone SHOULD have a bailout system. I also feel that majority of departments do not spend enough time training people to use their harnesses and bailout systems.

The reason I started this thread was because I have noticed that up in St. Lawrence county where I go to school and am a M/A member with Potsdam FD, practically no one has a bailout system or a harness of some sort. The tallest building in St. Lawrence county happens to be on the campus at my school (SUNY Potsdam). The building is 6 stories tall. If I had to guess, I would say that 70-80% of houses in St. Lawrence county are 1 or 2 stories. I guess this is why there are so few firefighters with harnesses or bailout systems.

[hudson144 150]

Being a close friend of Jeff Cool (FDNY RES 3) one of the Firefighters injured during that tragic day I feel that all need to be fitted with a system especially if you are a qualified interior member of the FD you serve. This weekend Gene Stolowski (FDNY 27 TRK) another survivor that day, gave a presentation at Stewart FD of the incident. From hearing Jeffs story and now Gene's story they both send a strong message! Along with the message is the fact that Single Room Occupancys (SRO'S) are a hazard that we all may face out there and they should certainly be made aware of. Be safe out there and if you ever get the chance to listen to the "Black Sunday" incident or meet with the guys involved do so!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Being a close friend of Jeff Cool (FDNY RES 3) one of the Firefighters injured during that tragic day I feel that all need to be fitted with a system especially if you are a qualified interior member of the FD you serve. This weekend Gene Stolowski (FDNY 27 TRK) another survivor that day, gave a presentation at Stewart FD of the incident. From hearing Jeffs story and now Gene's story they both send a strong message! Along with the message is the fact that Single Room Occupancys (SRO'S) are a hazard that we all may face out there and they should certainly be made aware of. Be safe out there and if you ever get the chance to listen to the "Black Sunday" incident or meet with the guys involved do so!

I would love to hear them speak. I listen to the "Black Sunday" recordings every once in a while. Good reality check. Tragic day. RIP

[FFBlaser 24]

I personally Spent about fourty dollars on a Bailout system consisting of a good climbing carabiner, a 20 dollar rope bag and 50 feet of rescue rope. I usually am on exterior vent anyways but I keep in my POV with my Bunker gear.

[efermann 28]

The reason I started this thread was because I have noticed that up in St. Lawrence county where I go to school and am a M/A member with Potsdam FD, practically no one has a bailout system or a harness of some sort. The tallest building in St. Lawrence county happens to be on the campus at my school (SUNY Potsdam). The building is 6 stories tall. If I had to guess, I would say that 70-80% of houses in St. Lawrence county are 1 or 2 stories. I guess this is why there are so few firefighters with harnesses or bailout systems.

The important part of this statement has to do with how many tall buildings there are. Part of the law requires an assessment of the buildings in the response area to determine what type of self-rescue system is required.

The law (here as a pdf) -- starting somewhere down on pg 4 -- states that departments need to (i) review the height of buildings including mutual aid buildings, (ii) assess the department's SOPs concerning rescue of firefighters from elevations, (iii) identify firefighter risks that will be addressed either by (a) already in place SOPs or ( b ) by some sort of rope system if the current SOPs will not provide an adequet level of safety.

Once the risk assessment has been completed, then the department needs to provide the systems to the members. Plus training, plus maintainence.

My intrepretation:

- Only single story ranch houses in the district? = not much chance to have firefighters trapped at high elevations = probably don't need a complete rope system...just some modified SOP's

- 4, 5, 6, etc. story buildings in the district? = much greater chance of being trapped at high elevations = a need for some system.

The language of the law is pretty dry, but pretty clear at the same time.

[16fire5 693]

PESH has gone out and done some presentations to help departments understand the requirements. PESH has stated that a body belay is acceptable to them in the proper context i.e. 2 story buildings. As for the mutual aid the wording contains language about regular and ongoing. I'm willing to bet the school dorm being refered to is a class 1 fireproof building and probably fully sprinklered. This is not the building type that is the subject of bailouts. I think it would be a stretch to believe that a rural county needs to outfit with a complex rope system because of a single 6 story fireproof building.

[Remember585 815]

For me, it was a no-brainer to invest in something for all of our firefighters. For about 10 years, I always carried a rope and beaner as a means of bailing out in a jam. We issued the same to the majority of our firefighters about 10 years ago, but we made the mistake of not providing ongoing training with them. Shame on us, but like alot of departments, we "lucked out" and never needed them.

The majority of our response area is single family homes, with some multi-families, three-story mixed occupancies, 3,4,5 story commercial, and one apartment building that is close to 8 stories tall in the rear, while only 4 stories in the front. We regularly respond Mutual Aid to areas with apartment buildings and three-story frames. Often times, you can't get ladders to the top floor of many of these buildings, so by doing our risk assessment, we decided to provide a new self-rescue system to our Interior members.

I know some think it's a waste of money, but it isn't. You can not put a price on safety. Drop a parade or two and buy 10-12 systems which may save your guys' lives. Every FD in this area can surely find the money to purchase a rope system, it's a matter of prioiritizing your purchases. It wasn't easy, but we're on track to purchase a certain number of systems per year and to train our members every year. Once we outfit those that need them, and train them on them, we will then send members to Train-the-Trainer programs in order to provide annual refresher training, at the least.

As one of those that once had to consider bailing out of a 7th story window, it'll be nice to know I have another option now.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

For me, it was a no-brainer to invest in something for all of our firefighters. For about 10 years, I always carried a rope and beaner as a means of bailing out in a jam. We issued the same to the majority of our firefighters about 10 years ago, but we made the mistake of not providing ongoing training with them. Shame on us, but like alot of departments, we "lucked out" and never needed them.

The majority of our response area is single family homes, with some multi-families, three-story mixed occupancies, 3,4,5 story commercial, and one apartment building that is close to 8 stories tall in the rear, while only 4 stories in the front. We regularly respond Mutual Aid to areas with apartment buildings and three-story frames. Often times, you can't get ladders to the top floor of many of these buildings, so by doing our risk assessment, we decided to provide a new self-rescue system to our Interior members.

I know some think it's a waste of money, but it isn't. You can not put a price on safety. Drop a parade or two and buy 10-12 systems which may save your guys' lives. Every FD in this area can surely find the money to purchase a rope system, it's a matter of prioiritizing your purchases. It wasn't easy, but we're on track to purchase a certain number of systems per year and to train our members every year. Once we outfit those that need them, and train them on them, we will then send members to Train-the-Trainer programs in order to provide annual refresher training, at the least.

As one of those that once had to consider bailing out of a 7th story window, it'll be nice to know I have another option now.

Excellent points. My FD just prchased bailout systems for all interior members. We have had the Jemcor belts for a while now. We sent people away to become trainers and now we have quite a few. It is a nice insurance policy for the money. I'll take an safety measure as simple as a bailout system any day over god knows what else the money would have gone towards.

[x129K 1,393]

Just equipping your members with a rope is NOT enough!

There needs to be intense and frequent training on deploying your system of choice, including under simulated duress, zero visibility, etc.

Unforutnately, NOTHING can replace or aid in getting experience in fire buildings, reading smoke/fire conditions, keeping a cool head, and knowing when yo actually deploy a bail out system.

IT SHOULD BE AN EYE OPENER AND SCARE THE s*** OUT OF US THAT VERY EXPERIENCE GUYS FROM TWO OF THE NATIONS BUSIEST AND WELL TRAINED DEPARTMENTS HAS MEBERS KILLED AND SERIOUSLY HURT IN THESE SITUATIONS!

[ex-commish 490]

What is the penalty for non-compliance? What if a member was injured or killed and it was proven that the lack of compliance ( training, equipment, identification of hazards)was the reason? Can those in charge meet with the same fate as the chief upstate?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can those in charge meet with the same fate as the chief upstate?

I would think it could be worst, since the chief in that case did not meet NFPA and state policy. This would be in direct violation of state law.

[mfire 2]

I personally Spent about fourty dollars on a Bailout system consisting of a good climbing carabiner, a 20 dollar rope bag and 50 feet of rescue rope. I usually am on exterior vent anyways but I keep in my POV with my Bunker gear.

I think that it is good that you have taken the initiative to get a bailout system. However, if you are not trained in using the system and know the pros and cons of that system, then it is as bad as not having anything at all. You just can not go out and buy a system which you think may work or even has been proven to work and expect it to save your life without proper training.

[FFBlaser 24]

I think that it is good that you have taken the initiative to get a bailout system. However, if you are not trained in using the system and know the pros and cons of that system, then it is as bad as not having anything at all. You just can not go out and buy a system which you think may work or even has been proven to work and expect it to save your life without proper training.

Oh trust me I have had to use it before. I took a US&R class that taught us how to create and use one effectively without taking off structure gloves.

[Guest Firediver]

Oh trust me I have had to use it before. I took a US&R class that taught us how to create and use one effectively without taking off structure gloves.

Nate, can you elaborate on your bail out maybe we can learn something from it. Also, are you talking about the body belay??? If not please share on this system with a biner and rope. Thanks

[FFBlaser 24]

Nate, can you elaborate on your bail out maybe we can learn something from it. Also, are you talking about the body belay??? If not please share on this system with a biner and rope. Thanks

Basically, It is about 100 feet of climbing rope with an easy lock carabiner and belay device that is tucked into a rope bag, the rope bag has a hole in the bottom end where the carabiner side of rope is threaded through. Basically, you create a body belay using the carabiner end and and belay device. Than you find an anchor point and thread the bag of rope through the anchor point and begin your decent. While belaying you use the belay device in conjunction with the rope bag to slowly descend down the side of your structure, It is a very rural situation out here and I have only had to self rescue once in fully involved structure fire when O2 got low and command ordered the interior attack team out from the second floor. of course the stairs were collapsed and unfit for evacuation. It worked well even though I was hesitant in the beginning. The bailout system is something you should always have. However, you should create it based on your environment. I know guys on brush rigs who tie themselves into trees so they have a way out if it gets tough.

Here are the links for my system,

Rope bag:http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_955_tfs_rope_bag_empty_small/

Carabiner: http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_6322_cmc_proseries_aluminum_key_lock_rescue_carabiners_nfpa_g/

Belay device: (expensive on here but I have a friend who works for CMC so I got the department a deal) http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_6952_cmc_rescue_multi_purpose_device_pulley_rescue_belay_descender/

[Guest Firediver]

Wow glad to hear you are OK Nate, that must have been some crazy stuff. The whole interior team had to bail? Holy ISH!! Was there a 2nd line to protect the stairs? No one laddered the 2nd floor? What was your position at this fire? you said before you were usually the OV were you on the knob this job? Can you to tell more about the incident? What other resources were at the scene? Is your Dept. Paid/Combo? Where in NM? I just like hearing first hand accounts, forgive the Q's.

Nate, first you also stated you were low on O2. Unless this is a NM thing, only news casters call them oxygen tanks.(Just breakin ballz) I know what you really meant .I also took a look at the decent device you used/are using and its for 13mm (1/2") rope. You carry 50ft of 13mm (1/2") rope along with biner and device? You carry this in a bag in your gear pocket? Hey if it works it works just seems a bit cumbersome to me.

If you can give some more details about your bail out experience my ears are wide open. We can all learn from someones first hand account. Thanks

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Wow glad to hear you are OK Nate, that must have been some crazy stuff. The whole interior team had to bail? Holy ISH!! Was there a 2nd line to protect the stairs? No one laddered the 2nd floor? What was your position at this fire? you said before you were usually the OV were you on the knob this job? Can you to tell more about the incident? What other resources were at the scene? Is your Dept. Paid/Combo? Where in NM? I just like hearing first hand accounts, forgive the Q's.

Nate, first you also stated you were low on O2. Unless this is a NM thing, only news casters call them oxygen tanks.(Just breakin ballz) I know what you really meant .I also took a look at the decent device you used/are using and its for 13mm (1/2") rope. You carry 50ft of 13mm (1/2") rope along with biner and device? You carry this in a bag in your gear pocket? Hey if it works it works just seems a bit cumbersome to me.

If you can give some more details about your bail out experience my ears are wide open. We can all learn from someones first hand account. Thanks

Start a new thread...I'm interested as well!

[FFBlaser 24]

Wow glad to hear you are OK Nate, that must have been some crazy stuff. The whole interior team had to bail? Holy ISH!! Was there a 2nd line to protect the stairs? No one laddered the 2nd floor? What was your position at this fire? you said before you were usually the OV were you on the knob this job? Can you to tell more about the incident? What other resources were at the scene? Is your Dept. Paid/Combo? Where in NM? I just like hearing first hand accounts, forgive the Q's.

Nate, first you also stated you were low on O2. Unless this is a NM thing, only news casters call them oxygen tanks.(Just breakin ballz) I know what you really meant .I also took a look at the decent device you used/are using and its for 13mm (1/2") rope. You carry 50ft of 13mm (1/2") rope along with biner and device? You carry this in a bag in your gear pocket? Hey if it works it works just seems a bit cumbersome to me.

If you can give some more details about your bail out experience my ears are wide open. We can all learn from someones first hand account. Thanks

Yeah it was a worker,We had a second line but it was deemed that the structure was unfit for further operations on the interior. I was one of the first piece to arrive. My department is a volunteer department however it is part of a larger county department which staffs five 24/7 staffed ambulances which are stationed with volly departments. The county also has several paid stations that respond with volly departments. I reside in santa fe, which is the capital of new mexico. I work for the State OEM. Most of the time I am on OV but I was one of the only interior certified guys on scene. I was on the search team with two other guys who used the same system as me to extract from. I use a 1/4 inch rope, thats not the exact model of bag i have but the similar concept. It works great and fits in my pants pocket.

I enjoy the questions! sorry for the late response! busy day!

[Guest Firediver]

What is your Dept. name? Did any paid guys show up on scene? If you were one of a few interior trained on scene who was on the pipe? Im trying to put the incident together in my head not trying to monday morning QB it. You never said if anyone had laddered the structure or not.

Hey, on another note my buddy in the service had been to Santa Fe a few times and said there was some good spot Pasquales or something like that. Ever been? Thanks Bro!

[Guest Firediver]

CMC Rescue MPD™

UL Classified to NFPA 1983 - General Use

Pulley - Auxiliary - Descent Control

Variable-friction descent control device for rescue systems and rappels

High efficiency pulley with an integral rope-locking mechanism (ratchet) for a haul system

Rescue belay device

Meets BCCTR Rescue Belay Competency Criteria

Becket allows rigging cleaner and more efficient pulley systems

For use with 1/2 in. (13mm*) rope

Allows the main line and belay line rigging to be mirror images

Functions as lowering brake and as ratcheting pulley for raising

Rapid conversion to a retrieval line makes it ideal for confined space operations

Developed during four years of research & testing, the MPD is the next major advance in technical hardware for professional rope rescuers - a multi-purpose device that performs all functions for main lines, belay/safety lines, tag lines and hoisting lines. The MPD can be used to tension high lines and guiding lines. Training and on-scene rigging can be greatly simplified by having a single device. Rescue system changeover from a lowering system to a raising system becomes faster and safer by eliminating the need to switch out and replace hardware.

*Designed for use with 12.5mm-13mm rope. Rope used for certification rounded up to 13mm per NFPA 1983.

Are you sure you use 1/4" rope? It says its for use with 12.5-13mm. I think it would mention something about PED, no? Also retail is $550 what kind of deal did ya get?

[FFBlaser 24]

CMC Rescue MPD™

UL Classified to NFPA 1983 - General Use

Pulley - Auxiliary - Descent Control

Variable-friction descent control device for rescue systems and rappels

High efficiency pulley with an integral rope-locking mechanism (ratchet) for a haul system

Rescue belay device

Meets BCCTR Rescue Belay Competency Criteria

Becket allows rigging cleaner and more efficient pulley systems

For use with 1/2 in. (13mm*) rope

Allows the main line and belay line rigging to be mirror images

Functions as lowering brake and as ratcheting pulley for raising

Rapid conversion to a retrieval line makes it ideal for confined space operations

Developed during four years of research & testing, the MPD is the next major advance in technical hardware for professional rope rescuers - a multi-purpose device that performs all functions for main lines, belay/safety lines, tag lines and hoisting lines. The MPD can be used to tension high lines and guiding lines. Training and on-scene rigging can be greatly simplified by having a single device. Rescue system changeover from a lowering system to a raising system becomes faster and safer by eliminating the need to switch out and replace hardware.

*Designed for use with 12.5mm-13mm rope. Rope used for certification rounded up to 13mm per NFPA 1983.

Are you sure you use 1/4" rope? It says its for use with 12.5-13mm. I think it would mention something about PED, no? Also retail is $550 what kind of deal did ya get?

thats not the exact model i use. same device essentially just for 1/4 inch rope.

[Guest Firediver]

So you use the Escape Artist then? Thats the one for your 1/4" rope

Edited May 7, 2010 by Firediver

[FFBlaser 24]

So you use the Escape Artist then? Thats the one for your 1/4" rope

i believe thats what its called, Its a few years old.

also I don't know what the price was. i think 50% percent was the deal for me and 25% for department.

Edited May 7, 2010 by FFBlaser

[FFBlaser 24]

What is your Dept. name? Did any paid guys show up on scene? If you were one of a few interior trained on scene who was on the pipe? Im trying to put the incident together in my head not trying to monday morning QB it. You never said if anyone had laddered the structure or not.

Hey, on another note my buddy in the service had been to Santa Fe a few times and said there was some good spot Pasquales or something like that. Ever been? Thanks Bro!

Ah yes pascuals, pretty good restaraunt. Anyway, I'll give you my size-up. Arroyo Hondo

Two story dwelling under construction, bottom floor flames showing, first arriving engine stated flames showing with possible extension, all construction workers accounted for. two other guys got on the nozzle and started interior attack with assistance from a tanker, me and two other guys established a search team and entered the front door with basic irons and made way upstairs making a secondary search. after about 10 minutes the flames extended up the stairs and the BC on scene determined that an alternative means of evac. was needed and we used our belay bags.

[Guest Firediver]

Thats Hondo VFD yes? Who did the primary search if your crew just got upstairs to do the secondary?

[mfire 2]

thats not the exact model i use. same device essentially just for 1/4 inch rope.

Not really. Major differences between EA and MPD. Where did you take your US&R bail out class? MPD has only been around for about 1 yr. on the market and our company actually had the first prototype. I highly doubt that you actually carry this device. Also, who was teaching your class? Was in a department US&R class or was it an outside company which came in to teach? Thanks for any information.