LE in GA begin attack on trailer fire...

[nycemt728 49]

Video

I know this is going to start a whirlwind of debate here, but I'm curious to see what people think. So according to media/department sources one or both of the troopers in the video most likely were mandated by their job to be cross trained as FD. Coming from NYC background where FD does not roll to a fire w/o being ready to roll upon arrival, it strikes me odd that the responders here had to stop to don gear or otherwise prepare. Seems to me like a good stop and a great example of teamwork...everybody pitching in towards a common goal. Comments?

[INIT915 1,119]

Video

I know this is going to start a whirlwind of debate here, but I'm curious to see what people think. So according to media/department sources one or both of the troopers in the video most likely were mandated by their job to be cross trained as FD. Coming from NYC background where FD does not roll to a fire w/o being ready to roll upon arrival, it strikes me odd that the responders here had to stop to don gear or otherwise prepare. Seems to me like a good stop and a great example of teamwork...everybody pitching in towards a common goal. Comments?

http://www.bainbridgecity.com/department/?fDD=8-0

The Bainbridge Public Safety Department is responsible for the protection of the lives and property of the citizens of Bainbridge and employs the public safety concept in fulfilling this responsibility. The public safety concept requires all members of the public safety department to be cross-trained and cross-certified in police services as well as fire services.

As a result of the employment of this concept the City of Bainbridge is able to provide a much higher level of public safety services to the citizens of the City in that the system places more patrol officers on the street thus reducing crime and response time to all emergencies. The City enjoys a Class IV fire rating which results in reduced insurance costs to the citizens of Bainbridge.

Up to date training is a top priority for the public safety department and each public safety officer receives a minimum of 120 hours each year in fire training and 40 hours of training in law enforcement. This is training which is required annually after the officer has been certified in both fire and police.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Ok Engine 58 responding to a brush fire O wait I see a man with a gun " hey officer throw me your gun while you call it in " ! Are you kdding me?

[FFEMT150 214]

as was already said, good stop and great teamwork. now that we have covered that, even if you have been trained in fire fighting porcedures, dont run up to it without proper PPE!!!!!!!! The fire was well advanced into the cab of the truck and you never know what is in there. That being said, i wish PDs by me would help out like that. Getting them to throw down road flares is like pulling teeth! Stay safe folks.

[Just a guy 493]

This video seems to have hit a sore spot with some members ... Just because it's not how it's done up here doesn't mean it's not right .... The cops were there first and apparently did what had to be done !!! Remember it's not about who gets there first or who starts the initial attack or who gets the kudos, it's about saving life and property, remember thats what we all signed on for !!

Remember we are all in the Emergency Services Business together !!!!

Stay safe Folks !

[FFEMT150 214]

"This video seems to have hit a sore spot with some members"

Topics will hit sore spots, thats the beauty of living in the USA. Personally i dont feel that the officers did anything wrong making the inital attack. My only gripe is that they were not wearing any type of PPE. Vehicle fires are a risky business, you never know whats in there. The idea of having LEO's cross trained in fire fighting is a fasinating concept and i will be doing some more research in it. The benefits of cross training can go on forever and as was said in the origional post, everyone is working towards a common goal! Stay safe!

[Bnechis 3,961]

"The City enjoys a Class IV fire rating which results in reduced insurance costs to the citizens of Bainbridge."

So on ISO's open book test for fire protection they scored between 60 and 69%.

Most schools call that a D or a failure.

Reduced rates? well yes compared to no department, but I know a number of volunteer depts that are 3's.

Even 1 VFD with no municipal water system thats a #4.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I don't understand why most people are condoning the actions of these LEO/FF's. This is a large truck with unknown material burning in the cab, that could quickly overcome the trailer and erupt into a catastrophe very quickly. Everyone is sooooo quick to jump down regular FF's throats when their waist straps aren't on correctly at a car fire, but these guys aren't wearing any PPE at all!

There is absolutely no life in jeopardy at this fire, other then their own, which they have placed themselves in. So they take an extra minute to put their PPE on and ensure that they will be safe. Maybe if they do that, traffic will be backed up for hours...WHO CARES. Its better then losing your life.

Edit: "What I am trying to say in that last paragraph is that when you double dip into the emergency services, now you have firemen thinking like cops, and cops thinking like firemen. Firemen now say 'Hey we NEED to keep this highway open, so lets disregard our safety so Jimbo can get to the bar before happy hour ends' instead of, 'Hey lets stop, do the safe thing, put all of our PPE on, and shut down the highway for however long it takes.' People will get over being late for work. Your family wont get over you not coming home."

Remember:

Myself

My Team

Other Life

Other Property

Incredibly reckless in my own opinion. I just wonder how this department operates at a structure fire based off this video......

Edited July 28, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[Alpinerunner 61]

This is all assuming the cross-training isn't done well... which very well might have been the case here from what has been said. I can't see the video on my browser. Am I correct that this area of Georgia has dedicated Sheriffs who are not cross-trained (but have extinguishers), cross-trained Public Safety officers/FFs, and dedicated firefighters?

I think cross-training could theoretically be a good solution for municipalities who can't afford two dedicated serivices. I mean there are few instances where the majority of the police force are required (chase, hostage situation) and few instances where the majority of a fire department are required (structure fire). So it could be an efficient solution.

I'm sure this opinion won't be popular, and I'm not saying it's better than having dedicated police and fire departments, but, if done right it COULD be a good solution.

[Just a guy 493]

Its great to see how this thread has taken on a life of it's own and continues to strike nerves. One of the above posters said the cops approached without knowning what the truck was hauling... I know we aren't regarded as the smartest people but i'm pretty sure one of the first questions with a truck fire is " What are you hauling ?" And incidentally it was paper that the truck was hauling.

I still can't help but think that most of the resistance to this idea is because it's not done up here and may be more common down south.

One of the more amusing comments was about the firemen shooting up the street and shooting bystanders ---- What are you talking about bro ? That was just a silly comparison to draw. These guys are cross trained and are cops and firemen, not just firemen with guns...

[JohnnyOV 2]

Its great to see how this thread has taken on a life of it's own and continues to strike nerves. One of the above posters said the cops approached without knowning what the truck was hauling... I know we aren't regarded as the smartest people but i'm pretty sure one of the first questions with a truck fire is " What are you hauling ?" And incidentally it was paper that the truck was hauling.

I still can't help but think that most of the resistance to this idea is because it's not done up here and may be more common down south.

One of the more amusing comments was about the firemen shooting up the street and shooting bystanders ---- What are you talking about bro ? That was just a silly comparison to draw. These guys are cross trained and are cops and firemen, not just firemen with guns...

No one is knocking the IQ or intelligence of our LEOS's, all I'm refering to is that now these guys are "Jack of all trades+1, master of none +1"

You don't see the guy who runs and maintains a light house, taming lions for Barnum and Bailey's circus.....

[nycemt728 49]

Ok Engine 58 responding to a brush fire O wait I see a man with a gun " hey officer throw me your gun while you call it in " ! Are you kdding me?

Hey bro, you got a gun totting criminal shooting up the south side. Fire engine shows up and they get out totting 9mm's, and start shooting all over the place. They kill the bad guy, but because their "cross training is so poor, oops sorry, shot a few bystanders. But hey good kill, whoever gets there FIRST! Right on! It's about stopping the perp, remember that's what WE all signed on for!!

Remember......blah blah.

Brother PD, we'd go to bat for you, walk the picket lines for you, put our lives at risk for you; we post here constantly in support of out brother/sister cops. Just keep your hands off the hoses and we'll leave the shooting to you K?

This is exactly the kind of antiquated, close minded attitude that I expected to see from the "veterans". You had other posters presenting evidence or first hand knowledge that the concept can work. Heck, you even had those who criticized a lack of PPE showing interest in the idea but you guys chose to stand on "well it worked back so far, no need to change anything" attitude. It's that kind of attitude that squashes the will to learn and keeps us at each others throats instead of focusing on the main issue...helping the public.

EMSJunkie you said SO WHAT if the road is closed forever, but our job is more than that, our job is to get home safe SURE but also to help the public and guess what, that includes the ones sitting behind our barricades while we take our time cleaning up, smoking cigarettes, taking cell phone pictures of the scene etc. Instead of bashing the idea, how about coming up with a solution such as suggesting that the crosstrained LEOs carry a set of PPE in their trunk for situations like these. Guess that was too hard to figure out for all you guys w/ so many years on...

[mfire 2]

I don't understand why most people are condoning the actions of these LEO/FF's. This is a large truck with unknown material burning in the cab, that could quickly overcome the trailer and erupt into a catastrophe very quickly. Everyone is sooooo quick to jump down regular FF's throats when their waist straps aren't on correctly at a car fire, but these guys aren't wearing any PPE at all!

There is absolutely no life in jeopardy at this fire, other then their own, which they have placed themselves in. So they take an extra minute to put their PPE on and ensure that they will be safe. Maybe if they do that, traffic will be backed up for hours...WHO CARES. Its better then losing your life.

Edit: "What I am trying to say in that last paragraph is that when you double dip into the emergency services, now you have firemen thinking like cops, and cops thinking like firemen. Firemen now say 'Hey we NEED to keep this highway open, so lets disregard our safety so Jimbo can get to the bar before happy hour ends' instead of, 'Hey lets stop, do the safe thing, put all of our PPE on, and shut down the highway for however long it takes.' People will get over being late for work. Your family wont get over you not coming home."

Remember:

Myself

My Team

Other Life

Other Property

Incredibly reckless in my own opinion. I just wonder how this department operates at a structure fire based off this video......

Who cares about the PPE. They should not be doing that in the first place. If they wanted to do something good, find the driver and find out what he is hauling. Then when the FD arrives, they can relay that info to them. What in this video did they really save. Nothing!!! Fire Department people do Fire stuff and PD do whatever it is you do. But you know the old saying, "Inside every cop is a fireman dying to get out"

[FFEMT150 214]

"Who cares about the PPE. They should not be doing that in the first place. If they wanted to do something good, find the driver and find out what he is hauling. Then when the FD arrives, they can relay that info to them. What in this video did they really save. Nothing!!! Fire Department people do Fire stuff and PD do whatever it is you do."

I think the point you are missing mfire is that in their county that is what they do. What the LEOs saved was hours on a fire scene! We can all sit here and play monday morning quaterback on all of these posts but the fact remains that we are going by what we are told or have read. What these LEOs do down there is no different than a PDs ESU doing EMS calls or cutting people out of a car. Some ESUs even do high angle rescue, should they stop because the FD has that team already? Watch the video again, the engine rolled up with ONE man on it and nowhere in the video did they show a second engine or more FFs pulling up. How long should they have waited? I'm going to try and change the direction of this thread for a bit here...does anyone have any POSITIVE feedback on the subject?

[JohnnyOV 2]

This is exactly the kind of antiquated, close minded attitude that I expected to see from the "veterans". You had other posters presenting evidence or first hand knowledge that the concept can work. Heck, you even had those who criticized a lack of PPE showing interest in the idea but you guys chose to stand on "well it worked back so far, no need to change anything" attitude. It's that kind of attitude that squashes the will to learn and keeps us at each others throats instead of focusing on the main issue...helping the public.

EMSJunkie you said SO WHAT if the road is closed forever, but our job is more than that, our job is to get home safe SURE but also to help the public and guess what, that includes the ones sitting behind our barricades while we take our time cleaning up, smoking cigarettes, taking cell phone pictures of the scene etc. Instead of bashing the idea, how about coming up with a solution such as suggesting that the crosstrained LEOs carry a set of PPE in their trunk for situations like these. Guess that was too hard to figure out for all you guys w/ so many years on...

I never said I would close the road forever, rather was simply talking about closing it while the true emergency was occurring...which from the video you can see happening. As soon as the emergency is over, open an lane up and get traffic flowing, that's the right thing to do.

And I would imagine if a department was cross training their members, with the expectation that they would be preforming both duties while operating as a LEO or FF, they would be smart enough to supply the individual with gear, hence why I left it out and didn't mention it, but the only way we can determine what they do, is to ask them to get the true answer.

I have no problem with the idea of a Public safety department that does all aspects of service, as long as my fellow brothers are doing things / able to do things in a safe and effective manor. When our safety is put in jeopardy over a truck's cab fire with no civilian life on the line, and we're taking grossly negligent and reckless actions, regardless whether it's this department, my department, or your department, we need to stop look at what we're really doing and come up with a corrective solution so that we are not put in harms way. We are all here to look out for one another, and I feel that by talking about this right now, is doing just that. The truck is a total loss before the LEO's even got there, its going out for scrap regardless if the fire was held to the engine compartment or the entire cab. No need to side step over own health over that.

Stay safe

edit: spelling

Edited July 28, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Doesn't matter to me if they are firefighters or law enforcement officers they did a piss poor job of approaching that fire.

In fact it looks like both sides were in above their head on this one. What if the engine block was on fire and the officers with their lack of PPE were showered with sparks? Doesn't matter if they are cross-trained or not, last time I checked skin and a duty uniform were not burn proof.

In fact the firefighter is just as much to blame as the cops, re-watch the video, using the booster on a V12 tractor-trailer cab, allowing for opposing handlines operated by improperly outfitted individuals and also failure to use PPE when overhauling the engine compartment are huge no-nos in most places; and the firefighter should have known that a stopped all operations until all proper and necessary safety functions are in place. I also did not see one person with a SCBA on, that cancer thing that we all keep dying of, I wonder where it comes from, maybe the dozens of known carcinogens released during a car fire.

Like I said above, regardless of training or what-not. Both sides of the coin, FD and PD both endangered their health and lives by choosing to take short cuts and not following proper procedure. They are very lucky that no one was injured.

Edited July 28, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Captain, we all grieve for the loss of the brothers fallen in CT, VA and elsewhere but we can not forget that life goes on. We must constantly learn from the events, tragedy and lessons of actions both past and present. We can not stop learning just because it hurts too much, or it is too soon.

I choose not to "chill on this thread" because we too must learn from this video as if it were a NIOSH report. We must take the lessons learned and apply them to actions both present and future.

The individuals in the video this thread is based on risked their safety to extinguish what, a tractor-trailer truck cab with limited life-safety except those individuals who choose to unnecessarily risk their own safety. That sir contains a lesson if you ask me. That lesson is risk a little to save a little, risk a lot to save a lot. Those pictured in this video risked a lot to save something that was going to the dump the second that fire started.

I am sorry if this offended you, but we can not let the lessons of this video escape us.

[crk830 8]

I'm going to try and change the direction of this thread for a bit here...does anyone have any POSITIVE feedback on the subject?

Yes something positive out of this video was that no one died this time using these tactics. In ten or twenty year when cancer sets in we can revisit this and wonder why no SCBA was being used.

[INIT915 1,119]

And if you read my last point, it's because they are burying two brothers in Bridgeport that maybe we should show respect by not bringing up controversy in the middle of a grieving process for many members.

Someday you'll understand.

With all due respect to those "grieving", how are you making the connection between that incident and this thread? And, a little bit disingenuously I might add, as you posted several posts before invoking this.

And on an entirely different note, is it really that arduous to envision a "public safety concept" with cross-trained members. I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I don't really think firefighting or law enforcement are of such an academic or unique nature that with motivated and determined employees, both positions could not be mastered. To assume otherwise really discredits members of both professions, in my personal opinion.

[x635 4,066]

Cops here just block off the scene and make sure the FD can get in, maintain control of traffic, and keep bystanders away. They find out if anyone is in the sleeper berth (team drivers) or if anyone is injured, if possible. The firefighters arrive and suppress the fire. The wrecker comes and takes the vehicle away. FD clears the scene. PD opens the roadway as soon as FD authorizes them to do so. And then on to the next call...

That's how teamwork is done down here.

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

So this department is cross trained, but wasnt GSP handling the hoses? They arent cross trained are they?

[FFEMT150 214]

"just a good old blow-out discussion is all I thought we were having."

That is one thing i can agree on with you 100% cap. While some posts did seem to be "aggressive" or were taken as "Perosnal attacks" they are the opinion of the member posting them. As the origional post said, there will be a whirlwind of debate here. No one person is wrong and everyone will feel they need to defent their beleif.

efdcapt115, please dont feel like we all arent greiving for our lost brothers, everyone has their greiving process. I too am deeply saddened by the loss of our brothers but as bvfdjc316 stated we cannot allow the lessons of this video to escape us. I have been reading your posts and you do make several valid points, ones that should be taken into concideration by us "young guys" (a title i do not mind having because i am for all intents and purposes a young man still).

This is a great debate here and there are many lessons being learned. I feel that there are many lessons you can teach us and there are just as many we can teach you. Please dont feel that i am trying to make an attack or single you out, this post is directed towards everyone, especially us youngins.

P.S. please excuse the spelling and grammer, its been a long day

[INIT915 1,119]

Take a look at the video INIT for your "vision" of how well cross training works. Take a look in the major population zones of this country, and show me a successful "cross-trained" well functioning "job."

You know, I'm a little tired of cops like you, (with what honestly, ten years on the job?) always interjecting with all your "knowledge" about firefighting. And you learned this where? In the PD Academy probably right?

Save it, nobody really cares. "Cross-training" "cross-jobbing" is tried and used in mostly southern rural, right-to-work-states, where they want a dollar fifty's worth of work from every dollar they pay their employees. You have no idea how many of those guys think it's a failed model, and can't say a word about it for fear of being fired.

So, "What we have here, is a failure to communicate."

Now, you blast away all you want, it's your right as well as mine. You call me "disingenuous", and I'm calling you an AMATEUR. "Grieving" in quotes? How can you be so ignorantly obtuse?

PS: There's lots of places in Georgia, or down in the swamps west of Charleston, South Carolina, where they'll welcome you with open arms into their combo-jobs; pay you 20 grand, no benefits, and hey.......go for it you like ot so much. It's a free country. Just don't complain when you get there.....or they'll fire yo butt boy; cause you in the south now. Come on down, you'll LOVE IT. Now who's next?

Edit: for going a bit too far.

You really have yourself all worked up needlessly. Nowhere did I say that the members in this video were well-cross trained. Reread my post for a minute.... I'll wait...

My point was, is it possible to have a successful system? I think it is, you can disagree, but your very poor attitude, and childish remarks really takes away from any meaningful discussion. I'd expect more from you, generally your posts are more substantive and have more to offer.

Edit: Corrected misspelled word.

Edited July 29, 2010 by INIT915

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Public Safety split isn't difficult

By Richard J. Cote

I was glad to read that the Town Council in Surfside Beach voted to eliminate the position of director of public safety. Surfside Beach acted quickly and decisively in separating the police and fire departments once the decision was made to do so. A simple resolution of the council accomplished this goal.

In comparison, the North Myrtle Beach City Council pays lip service to the idea of separating the police and fire departments. They have done little or nothing to implement this plan. As far as I know, they are still hiring public safety officers, not police officers. They still plan on hiring a new director of public safety. The city would be better served to hire a police chief and eliminate the director position. The money saved would go a long way to help defray the cost of separating the departments.

Some councilmen have said they don't have the authority to order the separation of the two departments. When the public safety concept was implemented in 1983, all it took was a resolution of the council and a direction to the city manager to implement the program. I remember going to a meeting where we went as a separate department and left that meeting as a public safety department. Once implemented, the details were worked out. It did not take months or years but a matter of minutes

If the North Myrtle Beach City Council were serious about separating the police and fire departments, it could do it tomorrow. I believe that they are procrastinating, hoping the topic will go away. I sincerely hope the residents of the city do not let that happen.

*Surfside Beach Town Council voted Tuesday night to eliminate the position of public safety director as of July 1.

Current public safety director Andy Christenson will be eliminated from the city's payroll at that point, Mayor Allen Deaton said today. Surfside Beach is in the process of splitting its fire and police services, making the position effectually unnecessary and a prime target for a the budget-strapped city.

The vote was 5 to 2, with Councilmen Bob Childs and Rod Smith voting no to eliminating the position, town officials said.

**North Myrtle Beach ponders police/fire splitNearly a year after a wildfire destroyed 75 homes in Barefoot Resort, efforts are under way to split this city's Public Safety Department into separate police and fire divisions, city officials said this week.

City Councilman Greg Duckworth said the process will be slow, to minimize the effect on employees, but the city is working toward a split that has had growing support from residents and council members since the April 23 fire, the worst in the city's history.

Duckworth - whose Windy Hill district includes Barefoot Resort - said it could take years for the split to be completed because the city does not want to affect the salaries and benefits of employees who signed up to be public safety officers. Those officers typically make more money than police and firefighters because they must do both jobs.

***North Myrtle Beach releases employee survey results

North Myrtle Beach releases employee survey resultsNORTH MYRTLE BEACH | City officials on Monday released the results of a survey that show public safety employees do not trust their bosses, fear for their jobs and work in an environment of fear and intimidation.

The employees also believe that a new public safety director should be hired from outside the department, according to the survey.

The survey was conducted by the University of South Carolina’s Institute for Public Service and Policy Research. The city asked for the survey to better understand what management changes need to be made in the wake of a scandal within the department that eventually led to the dismissal last week of William Bailey, the former director.

http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/06/17/1537163/public-safety-split-isnt-difficult.html#ixzz0v4VnWVsu

A year and change after the worst fire in THE HISTORY OF NORTH MYRTLE BEACH, that destroyed 19,000 acres of wildland, and seventy-five homes in Barefoot Resort; Surfside Beach ELIMINATED it's "public safety director" and SPLIT the PD & FD. It started the concept in 1983.

North Myrtle supposed to, or should be doing the same, but their situation is plagued with scandal since the 75 homes were in NMB, and the Public Safety Director Mr. Bailey (came from the PD side) became embroiled in scandal following the catastrophic fire, because he had NO CLUE how to handle a major fire. He has since retired slickly, before his imminent firing.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Remember:

Myself

My Team

Other Life

Other Property

Not on the posted subject but... If you truly believe the above list of priorities than can we assume that you never run lights and sirens to calls? If your life is first all the time, how do you explain increasing the risks to your own life and that of your crew by running Code 3?

I certainly don't advocate suicidal risk taking, but this me first attitude taken to the degree that it's listed out? You'd better hope the public doesn't see this and wonder why they pay firefighters more than DPW guys.

[helicopper 1,050]

Everybody needs to lighten up. This thread was started to discuss the notion of cross-training and its application in the video example.

There are TWO issues that should be discussed here - the efficiacy of cross training personnel and the tactics in the video.

Stop the antagonistic and inflammatory remarks unless you want to cause the thread to be closed.

[64FFMJK 21]

I'll make you a prediction; you won't see it in NY in your career time.

Obviously you are not paying attention to the current state of New York State, if Patterson thought he could save enough cash to buy a cup of coffee its open for consideration. I have 22 years left and at the current rate I will be cross trained in other state jobs in the next 5 years from what my UNION is telling me.

[TXCHIEF 9]

Having been involved in a department which was comprised of Public Safety officers, as well as volunteer members there

were pro's and con's to the operation. All career personnel were trained and certified as required under the state for both LE & Firefighter and in several cases officers also were certified as EMT or Paramedic as we also in the at that time as first responder, in conjunction with contracted EMS provider. The PSO's were compensated above their base pay for being cross trained, as well as for enhanced state certifications in both LE or Fire and in their EMT/EMT-P certifications. SOP's were vital in our operations, i.e. PPE for all incidents (patrol officers carried all their PPE in trunk). In addition what we implemented to ensure consistency and to foster better operations was a testing program for volunteer personnel and officers equal to that of the career staff (physical agility, officer testing and candidate review board comprised of career and volunteer staff). The PSO concept was put in place in this community, due to limited budget and tax base at the time and remained in place for 18 years. The biggest concerns that were raised by the PSO's was their ability to maintain proficiency in multiple disciplines. Although all ongoing annual training requirements were met in both LE & Fire. Many of the officers had a preference of which area they liked and when the city's tax base and revenue grew to a point that the city council working with the Public Safety Director and rank and file, made a decision to split the dept back to separate PD & FD. All pay scales were maintained, PSO's were happy and they got to choose which dept they remained in. Additional benefit with the split was that budget wise with both capital and expense in that they could now identify needs for their particular disciplines and not be fighting internally under one budget.

The PSO concept I believe has its place within communities with limited tax revenue, but requires a person or persons at the top who are familiar and trained in both LE & FD in order to make it work, as wll as implementing strong SOP's and ensuring they are complied with.

Just my 2 cents

[efdcapt115 1,511]

This is exactly the kind of antiquated, close minded attitude that I expected to see from the "veterans". You had other posters presenting evidence or first hand knowledge that the concept can work. Heck, you even had those who criticized a lack of PPE showing interest in the idea but you guys chose to stand on "well it worked back so far, no need to change anything" attitude. It's that kind of attitude that squashes the will to learn and keeps us at each others throats instead of focusing on the main issue...helping the public.

So brother now you have first hand knowledge presented by others that shows how other communities in other states that have had a system like this in place for decades, are disassembling said systems and going back to seperation of services for various resons; one being a much bigger fail than your truck fire example. What's your opinion now?

[nycemt728 49]

Nothing very concrete...the example you presented said nothing concrete as to why the system failed....if anything it simply said the PSD was incompetent at running a fire, doesn't matter the title or system that can happen anywhere...doesn't mean the system is necessarily wrong. TxChief's response was good, and if you read, did not necessarily condemn the system just pointed out the problems that it comes with. No system is perfect...so nothing too opinion altering. As for the response, from what I read the system did not fail at all, but simply was phased out when money came available. What system doesn't spend more when times are better? I'm open to the possibilities, but I need cold hard numbers and evidence, not editorialized opinions or polls.