PPE For Apparatus Drivers

[Remember585 815]

Looking for opinions here...

Do you feel your apparatus drivers should or should not be wearing their gear when driving? I've driven apparatus in shorts and sneakers, bunker pants, and even in my socks (a long time ago, relax).

And, once on the scene, do you feel your ECC or TCC needs to be in PPE to operate the pump or to operate the aerial?

I'm not looking for any fighting, but opinions. It has been discussed dozens of times around our firehouse, and I want to see what others think.

Personally, I don't think you drivers should wear anything that hinders their safe operating of the apparatus. With modern apparatus having the engine between the driver and officer, it becomes a little tighter in the driver's seat. For a larger gentleman, such as myself, I find wearing my bunker pants with the bailout rope in the pocket to be a bit of a pain in the neck.

What's your thoughts?

[FFEMT150 214]

This should make for a great debate. I too find it difficult to operate a vehicle in bunker pants and a turn out coat, however i find it to be just as easy to operate the pump or stick in turnouts as compared to jeans. Some of our drivers will put their gear on the rig and gear up once they come on location while others dont bring any PPE at all. I'm not able to find the exact text right now but i think NFPA reccomends ALL persons on the rig to be in full turnout gear. I may be wrong on this but i remember seeing it somewhere. Personally john, i say gear up. Stay safe folks!

[Box361 2]

This should make for a great debate. I too find it difficult to operate a vehicle in bunker pants and a turn out coat, however i find it to be just as easy to operate the pump or stick in turnouts as compared to jeans. Some of our drivers will put their gear on the rig and gear up once they come on location while others dont bring any PPE at all. I'm not able to find the exact text right now but i think NFPA reccomends ALL persons on the rig to be in full turnout gear. I may be wrong on this but i remember seeing it somewhere. Personally john, i say gear up. Stay safe folks!

I normally don't comment on many things, but this is one I feel quite strongly about. It is my opinion that turnout gear should not be worn while driving. As previously stated, the tight quarters of some of the apparatus and all of the gear we are required to carry in our turnouts can simply get in the way of properly operating the apparatus. Once at the scene of the emergency, absolutely should the turnout gear be worn.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Chief;

you know my opinion.... I wear my bunkers when driving the rig... But with the new bail out bags, it just ain't pretty... so I have gone the route of keeping the bailout bag in my gear locker, and if I am driving I bring it with me and store it under my seat... if for some reason I am required to do interior work, I will have my bail out bag... bottom line here, that rope may save my life some day, but it can not do that at the firehouse... remember I am one of the few guys that still have our original bail out bag, and still used it.

When I first started driving the rigs, I hated the rubber boots, and felt like I had no control over my feet and the pedals... but with the new boots, it is really like wearing work boots, so I do prefer wearing them... When driving my tanker, I am at the pond site, dumping, then off to the fill site, and back again.... so to not wear then until I am on the scene makes no sense...

I feel it should be what ever make you feel safer... for me that's to wear them...

[Remember585 815]

Chief;

you know my opinion.... I wear my bunkers when driving the rig... But with the new bail out bags, it just ain't pretty... so I have gone the route of keeping the bailout bag in my gear locker, and if I am driving I bring it with me and store it under my seat... if for some reason I am required to do interior work, I will have my bail out bag... bottom line here, that rope may save my life some day, but it can not do that at the firehouse... remember I am one of the few guys that still have our original bail out bag, and still used it.

When I first started driving the rigs, I hated the rubber boots, and felt like I had no control over my feet and the pedals... but with the new boots, it is really like wearing work boots, so I do prefer wearing them... When driving my tanker, I am at the pond site, dumping, then off to the fill site, and back again.... so to not wear then until I am on the scene makes no sense...

I feel it should be what ever make you feel safer... for me that's to wear them...

And, as you have been told, the bag and system are not to be removed! If you respond to a brush fire and get sent to a fire on the 5th floor of Sky View....now what? We'll discuss this in private AGAIN.

[Arrowxt 8]

Great topic. I feel that it should be left to the discretion of the operator. The driver of any apparatus can and will be responsible for the lives of up to six firefighters in my district and maybe up to 10 in others. I want him /her to be comfortable in the operator’s seat. NFPA compliant boots with the structure and mass they have can be cumbersome with pedal operations and it is not a secret that the EPA standards have narrowed every manufacturers seating width. Once on scene they should be in a full protective envelope. If they are required to have an SCBA(available) then they should be required to be in PPE if not just for added protection from a broken intake/discharge but also for the reflective striping.

The added 2 minutes of them donning the gear at the scene is not going to bother me if everyone gets there in one piece safely.

[FFBlaser 24]

Have You ever tried driving your Admin Vehicle going code on the highway in full bunkers? or your POV? It's Impossible, Being an officer I find that at the most driving the apparatus you should wear your pants, I don't want any of my guys driving to have any sort of obstruction to the pedals, audible and visual warning controls and other items inside the cab, In my Dept. the Engineer Usually only wears a t-shirt bunker pants, Safety Vest, radio harness and Command Jacket if its cold out.

[FireMedic049 597]

Looking for opinions here...

Do you feel your apparatus drivers should or should not be wearing their gear when driving?

Speaking as a career firefighter, who is assigned as an apparatus operator pretty much every regular shift I work, I think that the decision to wear or not wear TOG when driving the apparatus should be an individual decision. The ability to safely drive the apparatus is paramount and if a person feels that TOG hinders that for them, then they shouldn't wear it while driving.

Personally, I frequently drive without any TOG on, but depending on the nature of the call (or during the overnight) I will drive with TOG pants on.

And, once on the scene, do you feel your ECC or TCC needs to be in PPE to operate the pump or to operate the aerial?

I think that decision should be somewhat situational dependent.

I'm not looking for any fighting, but opinions. It has been discussed dozens of times around our firehouse, and I want to see what others think.

[FFEMT150 214]

I normally don't comment on many things, but this is one I feel quite strongly about. It is my opinion that turnout gear should not be worn while driving. As previously stated, the tight quarters of some of the apparatus and all of the gear we are required to carry in our turnouts can simply get in the way of properly operating the apparatus. Once at the scene of the emergency, absolutely should the turnout gear be worn.

Its always good to see another persons opinion, after all that is what the origional post was asking. I understand you feel strongly about this as i am sure you understand my preference. So far the general consensous seems to be that it is the operators decision, and rightly so. It is his responcability to get the rig from point a to point b and sometimes point c back to a safely. Again im not sure about the NFPAs stand point on the topic but i do have some sources investigating for me.

[SteveOFD 176]

Personally I wear mine when I drive the rig. The comment I would like to insert into this thread is the stipulation in NFPA 1720 (The Volunteer FD Standard) that states "Upon assembling the neccessary resources at the emergency scene, the fire department shall have the capability to safely initiate an initial attack within two minutes 90 percent of the time". If a Driver is not suited up prior to arrival, this could cause a delay in meeting this requirement. I do agree with the posters above that this must be a personal descision based on how safely the Driver can get the apparatus to the scene.

[ajsbear 11]

No mater what, you are a firefighter and should go prepared for anything. You may be driving a rig but then put to work. I always have my gear at least on the truck. I wear my bunker pants while driving, the rest is in the engineers compartment. Coat, helmet, mask etc. If I'm driving the brush truck it is on there someplace, back seat, compartment etc. You must be ready for anything. I have gone to the leather boots which make it much easier to drive then the rubber.

[abaduck 123]

Have You ever tried driving your Admin Vehicle going code on the highway in full bunkers? or your POV? It's Impossible.

I beg to differ. In winter my gear lives in my hallway, and I don before responding. My usual POV is small - a rice burner, and a stick shift to boot. I've never had the slightest problem. I'm not a small guy - 5'11" 190lb - but I can believe a bigger guy might have problems. But 'impossible'? Definitely not.

Mike

[mfc2257 464]

I never wore TOG while driving when I still had rubber boots. 10+ years ago I went to leather boots that feel like hiking boots. Ever since I've worn my TOG pants while driving with my coat on the dog box and helmet usually sits on the dash between the gauges and the window.

It's all personal preference but when I pulled up to the fully envolved 9000 gallon fuel truck in Briarcliff in 2004 in E247 I was glad I had my full gear at my finger tips.

There have also been plenty of times that I've rolled up to a job and while the crew is flaking out the handlines and the second due engine is picking up my line at the hydrant, that I'll throw the two ground ladders on the engine and wouldn't have time to do that if I wasn't already dressed. Same when driving the truck... If I've got the roof or upper floors sticked I'm going to throw ground ladders, control exterior utilities, or assist the OVM in the initial moments (returning to the apparatus quickly so that by the time the crew reaches the upper floors I'm available to operate the stick for a rescue).

There is an amazing amount of work that can be done by competent fire crews within two minutes of arriving at a job. You have to be ready to go when you get there though. That means the crew hustles to get dressed, listens intently to pre-arrival radio transmissions, knows who is doing what, and is ready to work when they arrive even if there isn't a white hat standing there when they step off the rig doling out instructions. As an apparatus operator, if you can be (within your comfort zone) as dressed as possible when you arrive, it leaves the opportunity for you to get more work done before you are remanded to the controls of your apparatus.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Lots of good posts. Our department policy is no turnout coat while driving because it may restrict steering. Bunker pants may be worn, and I like to wear them because in our situation, the operator may have to go into the building for alarm investigation, go to work at an MVA, etc due to manpower issues, and it makes it quicker to get full PPE on for those situations.

As for operating the pump or aerial... I would say it's situational. Pump panel probably not... but there is a higher chance of going to work unexpectedly if working the aerial (assist window rescue).

[FireMedic049 597]

Personally I wear mine when I drive the rig. The comment I would like to insert into this thread is the stipulation in NFPA 1720 (The Volunteer FD Standard) that states "Upon assembling the neccessary resources at the emergency scene, the fire department shall have the capability to safely initiate an initial attack within two minutes 90 percent of the time". If a Driver is not suited up prior to arrival, this could cause a delay in meeting this requirement.

A couple of thoughts regarding this:

1) The 2 minute time frame is the "standard", not the "requirement".

2) If your driver needs to be fully dressed in order to initiate that initial attack within the 2 minute time frame, then there's a pretty good chance that you will not be in compliance with the 2in/2out rule or you don't have enough properly trained personnel on the scene. With a crew of 4 (or more), there's no reason why the driver would need to get fully dressed before getting the attack underway since he shouldn't be on the line anyway unless you left the station without a sufficient number of "interior" personnel. Anything less than a crew of 4 means that you don't have 2in/2out unless additional personnel are on scene and if that's the case, you're right back at the driver not being on the attack line.

If the driver needs to be fully dressed in order to pull some levers and hook up the water supply at the outset of the incident, then he probably parked too close to the fire.

[mfc2257 464]

A couple of thoughts regarding this:

1) The 2 minute time frame is the "standard", not the "requirement".

2) If your driver needs to be fully dressed in order to initiate that initial attack within the 2 minute time frame, then there's a pretty good chance that you will not be in compliance with the 2in/2out rule or you don't have enough properly trained personnel on the scene. With a crew of 4 (or more), there's no reason why the driver would need to get fully dressed before getting the attack underway since he shouldn't be on the line anyway unless you left the station without a sufficient number of "interior" personnel. Anything less than a crew of 4 means that you don't have 2in/2out unless additional personnel are on scene and if that's the case, you're right back at the driver not being on the attack line.

If the driver needs to be fully dressed in order to pull some levers and hook up the water supply at the outset of the incident, then he probably parked too close to the fire.

A good MPO who is presumably a relatively senior man should be doing more than just pulling levers and establishing continuous water supply. There are a million and one reasons why they might have to approach the fire building or other hazard area in order to assist during opening moments. They may also be the MPO of a 3rd or 4th due rig and be going to work with their crew. If they have to remove their street boots, don their gear, don an airpak, etc. they're behind their crew. If they're comfortable driving in their bunkers they are one step closer to being able to assist in a hazardous environment... Even if it's walking up to the front door to assist brothers removing a victim from the fire building.

[Guest]

Personally I wear mine when I drive the rig. The comment I would like to insert into this thread is the stipulation in NFPA 1720 (The Volunteer FD Standard) that states "Upon assembling the neccessary resources at the emergency scene, the fire department shall have the capability to safely initiate an initial attack within two minutes 90 percent of the time". If a Driver is not suited up prior to arrival, this could cause a delay in meeting this requirement. I do agree with the posters above that this must be a personal descision based on how safely the Driver can get the apparatus to the scene.

I really hope if someone is experienced enough to ride a firetruck, let alone drive it, they can get dressed in less than two minutes, that's a lifetime. I don't think there's anything wrong with driving in bunker pants if the driver is comfortable with that. At the pump panel, a coat is probably not necessary unless its cold, but once you start approaching the building to throw ladders, vent, etc. You should probably have a coat on. Since truck drivers are a lot more likely to go to work in a closer proximity to the building than a wagon driver, I would think the driver should have his coat on after getting out so he doesn't have to waste time getting it.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Slayer61

[M' Ave 1,466]

There really isn't any reason to have any gear on while driving. I see a lot of Truck Chauffeurs wearing pants while driving, that's considerably less of a hindrance than a coat and it makes it easy for them to go to work once they arrive on scene. Engine Chauffeurs, unless it's a multiple, they're not going inside. They will be pumping or assisting another Chauffeur. Why do they need gear on? Especially in the summer? If it's hot and you're staying outside, stay cool and comfortable.

[FFBlaser 24]

I beg to differ. In winter my gear lives in my hallway, and I don before responding. My usual POV is small - a rice burner, and a stick shift to boot. I've never had the slightest problem. I'm not a small guy - 5'11" 190lb - but I can believe a bigger guy might have problems. But 'impossible'? Definitely not.

Mike

I'm 6' 4" And I find my Dept. Tahoe hard to drive, Its even Harder to drive my A4 With bunkers on... I would rather don my gear at the station or on scene,

[FireMedic049 597]

A good MPO who is presumably a relatively senior man should be doing more than just pulling levers and establishing continuous water supply. There are a million and one reasons why they might have to approach the fire building or other hazard area in order to assist during opening moments.

You're reading too far into what I posted. I was specifically addressing the poster's reference to 1720 and the 2 minutes to initiate the attack. Unless I'm way off, we're talking about the first arriving unit. During that initial 2 minute period, the MPO's primary responsibility will generally be getting water to the attack team and water supply. Unless that engine company is working grossly understaffed (less than 3 FFs), the driver should not be needed for the attack team to initiate the attack. As such, the driver not wearing TOG when driving should have no bearing on how fast the attack begins since his initial role really doesn't require him to be in TOG.

If they need the driver to be a part of the initial attack team, then the "2 minute" thing may very well be irrelevant since you don't have sufficient manpower to initiate that attack - if you are following 2in/2out - and it may take more than 2 minutes for more manpower to arrive.

Trust me, I know about what a "good MPO" should be doing. In my department, a driver does a lot more than just pull levers and establish a water supply. The engine I work on typically has only 2 FFs, sometimes 3 and a total of 5-7 FFs overall for our on-duty response. No opportunity to just pull some levers.

They may also be the MPO of a 3rd or 4th due rig and be going to work with their crew. If they have to remove their street boots, don their gear, don an airpak, etc. they're behind their crew. If they're comfortable driving in their bunkers they are one step closer to being able to assist in a hazardous environment... Even if it's walking up to the front door to assist brothers removing a victim from the fire building.

I don't disagree with any of this, however as I stated I really wasn't discussing this. Edited July 30, 2010 by FireMedic049

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What is worn while operating an apparatus to me should be left up to individual preference. What should be dictated is what should be the minimum equipment worn on scene. I believe at a minimum apparatus operators should have bunkers, helmet and gloves. Things are under pressure and do go wrong or if on a turntable and something should occur and they need to ascend they have some appropriate protection to do so. Things can become extremely dynamic during the initial stages of an operation and you never know with whether right or wrong that you pull up and personnel are limited if you may have to throw a 24 footer alone and make a grab out of a window. Better to have some things on and ready to go and have some form of protection for those unforeseen variables that can occur.

I generally operate my apparatus with boots on. I can with leather boots and the fact that our apparatus have a brake pad that is similar in type to the car. Not the long lever type right next to the accelerator which are pretty narrow. Rubber boots..no way I probably would. Depending on the apparatus is whether I'm comfortable with a coat on. But again that is my individual preference.

[JTF429 37]

Interesting post. As the driver asigned to my rig I follow our policy. It is up to the driver. We wear shorts in the summer so if you go on a run you have to wear your night hitch. I usually wear my hitch and will put on my coat if i need to. I will keep them close by.

[Anthony Tester 13]

Expect the unexpected, have it on. I never had a problem driving any apparatus with a coat on (although I preferred not to in the warmer months) and always had bunker pants on. Whether your a fully staffed career, a partially staffed career, or a volunteer, it does not matter. You never know what you might encounter when you first roll up. Are you willing to sit there and have to explain to a jury why you were not prepared when you arrived on the scene? Well you see your honor, I had to take off my sneakers, and my pants (because my bunkers do not fit when they are on), then my boot fell out of my bunkers, and yes this did delay things, but only for a few minutes...

Yeah its extreme but you know what? I would rather pull up prepared for anything than not prepared at all.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Another question to ask is, what are your department's policies/procedures on this topic? If you are a driver/operator, should you be focusing on that function?

If your SOP/SOGs state you should be in gear, should you be before entering the vehicle, or once on scene? What are punitive actions if you are not? What if your SOP/SOGs state you will NOT be in gear and you are?

There are millions of "Well, what if...." that could be thrown out there....

[SteveOFD 176]

A couple of thoughts regarding this:1) The 2 minute time frame is the "standard", not the "requirement".

You got me on that one, I should have known better, only human, I do slip up once in a while.

I really hope if someone is experienced enough to ride a firetruck, let alone drive it, they can get dressed in less than two minutes, that's a lifetime. I don't think there's anything wrong with driving in bunker pants if the driver is comfortable with that.

I prefer to wear the pants (while driving) because if we do pull up to a "job", getting "dressed in less than two minutes" will probably not take place for at least five to ten minutes after arrival due to all the neccessary jobs that the Driver will be doing to support the initial attack on the incident.

[ffdltg76 0]

A wise man once told me dress for success! Wear it BC you never know what is gonna be asked of you when you show up to an emergency scene even as a mpo.

[FireMedic049 597]

A wise man once told me dress for success! Wear it BC you never know what is gonna be asked of you when you show up to an emergency scene even as a mpo.

Call it a Devil's Advocate thing, but ultimately which is more important

1) Having the driver "dressed for success" upon arrival because "you never know...."

or

2) Having the driver dressed in a fashion that doesn't restrict their ability to safely operate the apparatus and get everybody to the scene?

[ex-commish 490]

I have had the opportunity to drive with gear and no gear at all and I prefer no gear hands down. To me the gear is very restrictive and hinders driving and could create a hazard but I agree it should be personal preference and not a hard fast SOP.

[JM15 386]

Being a volunteer department it depends what I am wearing when I get to the firehouse. If i am wearing shorts and sneakers then I will put my bunkers and boots on. I prefer the heavier boots to give me better control of the pedals. I wouldn't drive apparatus in rubber boots only leather. This topic isn't addressed in our SOG's. I think that it should be up to the drivers personal preference since he is responsible for safe operation.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Great topic.

Very interesting spectrum of opinions in here. I'm trying to view each of them through the prism of the members' respective departments, staffing approximations, what a first due engine or truck riding light might encounter upon arrival.

SOG's have to come first. But consider if your department allows you to respond sans some gear, now it comes to the staffing level that's going to dictate what you might have to do. 2in/2out is out until you get some help on scene in the immediate life hazard scenario part of the OSHA Standard.

The leather boots made it much easier to drive; as much as climb stairs. Rubber boots were a driving hazard. Getting a pair of leather boots was like learning how to drive all over again.

I'd suggest driver training in boots/pants/coat (a/c cranking these days) with shorts and a cotton tee, to get as familiar and comfortable as possible with how the pedals and the rig feels. Work out the appendage equipment issues with lots of DT while geared up; then dress for alarms according to your SOG first, staffing level second. Less members becomes more gear on.

I was too tall to ever drive with a helmet on though. The new gloves now look like they'd be great to drive with, but not the blue ff ones, no way, say it ain't so!

As the multiple of staffing increases, all the way up to the big city and M'Ave's company (or your fully staffed rig rolling out the door), the chances of immediate IDLH action by the chauffer are reduced, and the opportunity to wear less than your crew becomes an easier choice, again as SOG's dictate.