Why Are Police Officers Down Here So Different?

[x635 4,066]

Having lived in Austin, Texas for over three years now after living in Hartsdale, NY for 28, and having worked with law enforcement agencies in both areas, I've noticed something.

THIS IS IN NO WAY A KNOCK AT POLICE OFFICERS, JUST MY OPINION AND OBSERVATION

Down here, cops want to be cops. They want to go out and make arrests, do felony stops, nab DWI and aggresive drivers, etc. They go out and find work, or are dispatched to it-work is plentiful. They follow up with previous victims, and take pride in the sector they work, and knowing it well. They'll help the FD when needed, but they don't duplicate any services. In fact, they get along quite well in most jurisdictions. Most have no interest in firefighting or doing anything the FD's doing. In fact, most people pursue either a law enforcement, EMS, or FD career. People just don't take tests until they are offered something.

It seems like Police Officers in NYC Metro area want to be into everything. Several muncipalities not only have ESU, but some have technical rescue teams, etc. Now, given the infastructure in NY, that's no a bad thing. But someone, seemingly an ESU officer, make some observations about a recent rope rescue Yonkers FD was involved in, which led me to thinking.

I believe STRONGLY in the ESU concept, however I think they should be more focused on tactical operations and supporting other law enforcement endeavors then tying themselves up with what the FD's already doing. These are highly trained police officers, with special equipment. Why tye them up on something the FD is already doing, and why is it a competition? Why are there more officers interested in getting rope certification then assualt rifle certification? Why aren't there more officers assigned to Hudson River patrols? ESU does a great job, but they should really be there for law enforcement work. I mean, I could understand having to rapell to get to a suicide victim or for SWAT purposes, but for rescuing stranded workers from a ledge...that's what the firefighters signed up to do.

Which leads me to wonder, why in the northeast, with less police officers, funding being cut, and crime rising, would officers want to deal with things beyond the law enforcement scope? Why would they want to direct funding towards equipment the FD already has and duplicate services? I know a lot is grant-funded, but if you don't need it let it go to someone who does. I think money would be better spent on having more K-9 units.

Why do officers down here have such a focused law enforcement different mentality, and in NY they want to do everything? I don't see firefighters wanting guns and handcuffs. Cops should be proud and excited that they are cops, and should take every bad guy off the streeet they can.

In certain situations, PD should work with FD, like in HazMat situations. And in certain places, like NYPD's Transit Bureau, should have confined space training, since going into tunnels to shoo them of transients and patrol, is part of their job.

Again, this is not a knock at LEO's, this does not apply to all LEO's, just some comparitive thoughts. I think cops in both areas do a great job at whatever they are assigned to do, I just see such a profound difference from down here to up there.

[PEMO3 523]

Maybe because they are all auditioning to be on the next episode of COPS.

[DMM8240 2]

Maybe because they are all auditioning to be on the next episode of COPS.

if this was facebook I'd "like" you comment.

[x635 4,066]

if this was facebook I'd "like" you comment.

You can show a "Like" by "Repping" the member by clicking the green "+" Icon at the bottom left of the post.

[Just a guy 493]

Ive read this post many times and I still fail to see the reason for posting it but it most certainly requires a response.

From what I know of you, you have no background in Law Enforcement so your ideas of how cops should feel about being cops and what they should do on duty may be how it is in a perfect world but in reality thats not how it works. This would be like me who knows nothing of fire fighting making critical observations about the fire service and putting all over the post " No offense guys" and " this is not a knock to firefighters".

As far as I've seen, you're the only member on here from texas so you are the only one who could answer your own question of " why are police officers down here so different ?"

I've been a cop for 12 years and I go balls to the wall every day I go into work as do most cops I know. Would it be nice to follow up with every crime victim we deal with ? Yes but we don't have the time or the manpower to do that stuff. How do you know that cops up here don't know their post as well as cops in Texas ?

Cops are in a unique situation to be cross trained in rescue, where as FD's can't be trained in law enforcement specific things... thats just the way it is.

You ask why is there competition ? There always has and always will be competiton in the emergency services and it's healthy to a degree.

You ask why are there not more hudson river patrols ? There are in the summer but not so much in the winter but what does one thing have to do with the other ?

The bottom line is that expanding the scope of your working capabilities means more job security and possibly more state and federal funding.

The biggest difference between cops up here and cops in texas is that maybe cops in texas enjoy a lot more community support than cops in the north east get.

[FFBlaser 24]

IMO, I think that Law Enforcement, and Firefighting, are on two different spectrums... However, they come together when needed, here in the southwest, there are no duplicate services, PD and FD get along... We don't have a Technical Rescue aspect of any of the local PD agencies... However, the State Police oversees Statewide Search and Rescue, But that's it. No competition here. Unless it's the firefighters vs. police officers annual hockey game...

[x635 4,066]

From what I know of you, you have no background in Law Enforcement so your ideas of how cops should feel about being cops and what they should do on duty

I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas with a large urban police department, working the busiest sector. My father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. And the taxes I pay for PD are to keep my family safe. I pay taxes for the FD and EMS to provide their services. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol.

As far as I've seen, you're the only member on here from texas so you are the only one who could answer your own question of " why are police officers down here so different ?"

Not just here, but other places I have visited, i.e. Los Angeles, where "ESU" has another name...SWAT.

Would it be nice to follow up with every crime victim we deal with ? Yes but we don't have the time or the manpower to do that stuff

Exactly.

Cops are in a unique situation to be cross trained in rescue, where as FD's can't be trained in law enforcement specific things... thats just the way it is.

But why do they have to be cross trained if there is already an agency providing the service? Unless it enhances manpower for that agency.

You ask why is there competition ? There always has and always will be competiton in the emergency services and it's healthy to a degree.

Why is it healthy? All I've seen it do is breed hate and ego.

The bottom line is that expanding the scope of your working capabilities means more job security and possibly more state and federal funding.

Agree, but shouldn't be that way. Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities, not just duplicate services to get grant money and waste it. All and all, these grants don't come from anywhere. They come out of our taxes.

I can see Law Enforcement doing Search and Rescue and other types of rescue related to policing, but don't duplicate FD services.

The biggest difference between cops up here and cops in texas is that maybe cops in texas enjoy a lot more community support than cops in the north east get.

VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already.

Another example is internal with PD's. County PD has a large number of resources and experts to offer agencies, but yet some departments still feel the need to duplicate their specialized services.

I love cops, I love firefighters, it's just a breath of fresh air down here to see a cop actually loving being a cop and nothing else.It refreshing to hear a cop say "Let's hang around the house of this guy with a warrant....see if he shows up....informant said he's been coming and going lately" instead of "Let's take in that rescue call".

[INIT915 1,119]

VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already.

I think it cuts both ways. Thinking back your link about the Houston Arson Investigators, I'm not sure "full-time" cops would have let that go down the way it did. Any reason FD doesn't just conduct the relevant fire investigation, then turn over the case to the appropriate PD?

[Billy 68]

if this was facebook I'd "like" you comment.

I'd second that

[x635 4,066]

I think it cuts both ways. Thinking back your link about the Houston Arson Investigators, I'm not sure "full-time" cops would have let that go down the way it did. Any reason FD doesn't just conduct the relevant fire investigation, then turn over the case to the appropriate PD?

It doesn't matter about the cops. The Arson Investigators are highly trained and equipped to handle these very specialized types of cases in Houston. They give everything they've found over to the DA, and they (the DA's) are the ones who really pilot the case. If Houston PD has investigated, when it went to trial, the evidence wouldn't have been so strong. It's been proven that arson cases investigated by arson investigators, whether PD, FD, or private- however your municpality laws read.....have a generally higher conviction rate then those investigated by regular detectives or homicide detectives. There's really no reason to turn it over to the PD unless there was an unrelated crime.

However, they do work WITH the ATF and FBI on arson cases

[helicopper 1,050]

From what I know of you, you have no background in Law Enforcement so your ideas of how cops should feel about being cops and what they should do on duty

I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas. my father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol.

As far as I've seen, you're the only member on here from texas so you are the only one who could answer your own question of " why are police officers down here so different ?"

Not just here, but other places I have visited, i.e. Los Angeles, where "ESU" has another name...SWAT.

Would it be nice to follow up with every crime victim we deal with ? Yes but we don't have the time or the manpower to do that stuff

Exactly.

Cops are in a unique situation to be cross trained in rescue, where as FD's can't be trained in law enforcement specific things... thats just the way it is.

But why do they have to be cross trained if there is already an agency providing the service? Unless it enhances manpower for that agency.

You ask why is there competition ? There always has and always will be competiton in the emergency services and it's healthy to a degree.

Why is it healthy? All I've seen it do is breed hate and ego.

The bottom line is that expanding the scope of your working capabilities means more job security and possibly more state and federal funding.

Agree, but shouldn't be that way. Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities, not just duplicate services to get grant money and waste it. All and all, these grants don't come from anywhere. They come out of our taxes.

I can see Law Enforcement doing Search and Rescue and other types of rescue related to policing, but don't duplicate FD services.

The biggest difference between cops up here and cops in texas is that maybe cops in texas enjoy a lot more community support than cops in the north east get.

VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already.

Another example is internal with PD's. County PD has a large number of resources and experts to offer agencies, but yet some departments still feel the need to duplicate their specialized services.

I love cops, I love firefighters, it's just a breath of fresh air down here to see a cop actually loving being a cop and nothing else.

There are differences in many things as you move from region to region in the United States; income, accents, history, culture, politics, demographics, etc., etc., etc. The question you raise is not merely applicable to law enforcement. There are vast differences between New York and Texas. I don't think the differences are as great as you believe nor do I think you properly articulated your argument without disparaging cops in NY and the northeast.

I think there is something to be said for the anti-police, anti-government sentiment in the northeast being a contributing factor to your supposition. I think as the country tried to become more politically correct and public service changed from being a calling to a secure job with benefits, we lost some of the service focus that contributed to law enforcement being what it used to be. There are still many hard-chargers in civil service but there are now an equal number of deadbeats just studying for promotional exams with no concept of the job and/or using the stability to advance their education for their next job.

You're flat out wrong about some things. Cops in ESU aren't trying to be firefighters and who says that rescue is a fire function? ESU predates many of the FD rescue resources in Westchester County. Yonkers E-rigs of the 80's were the first paramedics in the city and had the only extrication equipment for many years. The County PD ran an ESU that provided extrication services all over the county before a lot of FD's got their own hurst tools. ESU is not the same as SWAT either. The LAPD runs SWAT but they don't do most of the things that ESU cops do - it is an apples and oranges comparison. In Jersey City, extrications are performed by EMS not fire or PD. White Plains has a police / fire special operations command that works collaboratively.

Duplicating resources? Are you kidding me? You really think that ESU in the couple of cities that have them in Westchester are the duplicative resources and squandering the funding that exists for emergency services. Hmmm, the 59 fire departments, 43 police departments, 60 or so school districts are definitely not duplicative. Who says that EMS is a fire function? PD is an first responder and in many places they are the only BLSFR that responds. We've already covered in other threads that BLSFR is not strictly limited to PD or FD exclusively.

Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities

OK, who decides what the core responsibilities are? What do you do when an agency can't/won't/doesn't fulfill it's core responsibilites?

Competition exists on many levels in public service and it can be healthy. There are plenty of examples of intra-disciplinary rivalries that are unhealthy; you're broad sweeping generalizations about inter-disciplinary relationships and responsibilities are way off base.

Pity there isn't a negative rep button anymore. Comparing patrol cops in Texas with ESU cops in NY or asserting that certain functions don't have cross-over between disciplines is way off base. There should be collaboration and less division and that's not strictly a PD/FD thing.

[JJB531 652]

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.

Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.

It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them? Before a lot of Westchester County Fire Departments purchased extrication equipment, extrications on the Westchester County Parkways were handled by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety. Should County PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service on the parkways already provided by them? The Town of Mount Pleasant Police was the sole provider of extrication services within their jurisdiction for years before the local fire departments purchased extrication equipment. Should the Town of Mount Pleasant PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service already being provided by the local PD?

Personally, I have no problem with FD's handling rescue work, and always look forward to working together at a scene rather then battle eachother. The one benefit I see to having both Firefighters and Police Officers assigned to Emergency Service Units taking part in a rescue, is that it gives you a larger talent pool to pull from in the event of a significant incident. There are some ESU officers who are talented rescue specialists, just as there are Firefighters assigned to Rescue Companies who possess the same talents and level of expertise. Being able to draw from the experiences and talents of both individuals at an incident is beneficial to the overall success of the operation.

Edited March 7, 2011 by JJB531

[INIT915 1,119]

It doesn't matter about the cops. The Arson Investigators are highly trained and equipped to handle these very specialized types of cases in Houston. They give everything they've found over to the DA, and they (the DA's) are the ones who really pilot the case. If Houston PD has investigated, when it went to trial, the evidence wouldn't have been so strong. It's been proven that arson cases investigated by arson investigators, whether PD, FD, or private- however your municpality laws read.....have a generally higher conviction rate then those investigated by regular detectives or homicide detectives. There's really no reason to turn it over to the PD unless there was an unrelated crime.

However, they do work WITH the ATF and FBI on arson cases

So, I hear what your saying. But I don't really follow your logic.

Your originally premise was PD's should be doing police work and FD's should be doing fire/rescue work? (Feel free to correct me if I am misquoting you.)

So, in theory, criminal arson cases should be handled by the PD. But if the FD arson guys are as good as PD investigators, they should keep the case, right? By that logic, if a city PD ESU is as good as the FD in terms of their rescue work, they they can continue doing the rescue work???

I think it's either one or the other, but you can't have it both ways.

[x635 4,066]

So, basically the comments about who did what first is what matters? Tradition and history dicate our roles, not what our community currently needs? Barbers used to do minor surgery, like remove tonsils? Since they were doing it first, should we send a patient with a tonilectomy to a barber because they were doing it "first"?

Is the standard nationwide nowadays for Fire Departments to handle motor vehicle extrications? When I worked Empress in the late 90's,WCPD ESU was still active and doing extrications....however it was only one officer and no protective gear. Yonkers ESU did a fantastic job at extrication. But what happens if ESU is tied up on a pin job and a hostage situtation comes in?

Rescue can be a combined function, but when you have two "competing" teams in one municpality, plus a third county provided service, then that's a waste.

And correction, University Of Medicine And Dentistry New Jerey EMS, in the City of Newark, provides Extrication, not Jersey City.

I always thought that ESU were SWAT trainined I guess I was wrong.

Given the vast array of infastructure and population density in the northeast, that plays into factor as well for more trained and equipped resources.

What if firefighters were trained to be police officers and carry weapons and make arrests, to help out the PD? Should we train everyone to be a Police Officer-Firefighter-Paramedic so we're all on the same level?

There are A LOT of differences between Law Enforcement in NY and TX.

I have nothing against cops, I just see a big difference in law enforcement, and I thought it would be an intersting discussion. I meant no offense to anyone. You want to give me a negative rep point for my opinion and point of view because it differs from yours?

I give up, I meant for this to be a compartive discussion of law enforcement roles in different parts of the country, but it got all skewed. But this discussion validated what I thought...it is different.

[Just a guy 493]

<BR>I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas with a large urban police department, working the busiest sector. My father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. And the taxes I pay for PD are to keep my family safe. I pay taxes for the FD and EMS to provide their services. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol. <BR><BR>Not just here, but other places I have visited, i.e. Los Angeles, where "ESU" has another name...SWAT.<BR><BR>Exactly.<BR><BR>But why do they have to be cross trained if there is already an agency providing the service? Unless it enhances manpower for that agency.<BR><BR>Why is it healthy? All I've seen it do is breed hate and ego.<BR><BR>Agree, but shouldn't be that way. Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities, not just duplicate services to get grant money and waste it. All and all, these grants don't come from anywhere. They come out of our taxes. <BR><BR>I can see Law Enforcement doing Search and Rescue and other types of rescue related to policing, but don't duplicate FD services.<BR><BR>VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already.<BR><BR>Another example is internal with PD's. County PD has a large number of resources and experts to offer agencies, but yet some departments still feel the need to duplicate their specialized services.<BR><BR>I love cops, I love firefighters, it's just a breath of fresh air down here to see a cop actually loving being a cop and nothing else.It refreshing to hear a cop say "Let's hang around the house of this guy with a warrant....see if he shows up....informant said he's been coming and going lately" instead of "Let's take in that rescue call".<BR>

<BR><BR>You being a dispatcher and having friends that are cops doesn't give you a law enforcement background. My uncle was a Yonkers firefighter who was injured on the job and got a diabiltiy pension but that certainly doesn't give me a fire fighting background.<BR><BR>The "taxes you pay" for police services will always keep you safe because no matter what a cop is doing they will always drop everything to get to a hot job ... if ESU is on a job then a patrolman will be there and help to the best of his ability. <BR><BR>You ask why is competition healthy ? Competition drives people to be the best whereas no competition breeds mediocraty and I don't know about you but i don't want mediocre cops firemen or emt's coming to help me or my family. <BR><BR>You talk about duplication of services ... I wonder if you are a union man because if you were you would realize that the more services you provide, the more spots on the roll call you can justify that means more people that can be hired.<BR><BR>John Q. Public that is in need of rescue doesn't give a s*** who is coming to help him first, he doesn't care if the truck is red or white, if it contains cops or firemen.. as long as then can help the citizen becuause when it comes down to it, thats what matters that the rescue is made.

[Just a guy 493]

So, basically the comments about who did what first is what matters? Tradition and history dicate our roles, not what our community currently needs? Barbers used to do minor surgery, like remove tonsils? Since they were doing it first, should we send a patient with a tonilectomy to a barber because they were doing it "first"?

Is the standard nationwide nowadays for Fire Departments to handle motor vehicle extrications? When I worked Empress in the late 90's,WCPD ESU was still active and doing extrications....however it was only one officer and no protective gear. Yonkers ESU did a fantastic job at extrication. But what happens if ESU is tied up on a pin job and a hostage situtation comes in?

Rescue can be a combined function, but when you have two "competing" teams in one municpality, plus a third county provided service, then that's a waste.

And correction, University Of Medicine And Dentistry New Jerey EMS, in the City of Newark, provides Extrication, not Jersey City.

I always thought that ESU were SWAT trainined I guess I was wrong.

Given the vast array of infastructure and population density in the northeast, that plays into factor as well for more trained and equipped resources.

What if firefighters were trained to be police officers and carry weapons and make arrests, to help out the PD? Should we train everyone to be a Police Officer-Firefighter-Paramedic so we're all on the same level?

There are A LOT of differences between Law Enforcement in NY and TX.

I have nothing against cops, I just see a big difference in law enforcement, and I thought it would be an intersting discussion. I meant no offense to anyone. You want to give me a negative rep point for my opinion and point of view because it differs from yours?

I give up, I meant for this to be a compartive discussion of law enforcement roles in different parts of the country, but it got all skewed. But this discussion validated what I thought...it is different.

So now you are comparing barbers to surgeons.. thats just silly.

If it was your goal to make this an "interesting discussion " you went about it the wrong way because your first post sounded like it came from someone with an ax to grind.

I think this discussion has proved interesting but I don't think it has gone the way you thought or would have liked it to which is evidenced by your last line of " but this discussion validated what I thought... it is different."

It honestly seems like you have something against law enforcement

[helicopper 1,050]

So, basically the comments about who did what first is what matters? Tradition and history dicate our roles, not what our community currently needs?

Your assertion was that the PD is trying to perform an FD function and we were merely pointing out that PD performed these services first in many communities thereby refuting your point as it could be argued that the FD's started to perform.

What in the emergency services is based strictly upon need? There are many more duplicative resources especially in Westchester County. Nobody suggested that history and tradition dictate our roles; we merely highlighted a contrarian viewpoint. On what standards should we base these needs? I wish we did more needs assessments to determine what was needed vs. what is popular or more cool.

Is the standard nationwide nowadays for Fire Departments to handle motor vehicle extrications? When I worked Empress in the late 90's,WCPD ESU was still active and doing extrications....however it was only one officer and no protective gear. Yonkers ESU did a fantastic job at extrication. But what happens if ESU is tied up on a pin job and a hostage situtation comes in?

Having been one of the officers to which you're referring, I will argue that the WCPD ESU could perform most extrications very well regardless of the unit staffing. The tool is really a one-person job anyway and additional resources/support could always be requested. One of the toughest extrications I ever worked, I worked with an EMS supervisor from a commercial EMS and not the FD.

I'll counter your hostage argument with what happens when FD is on a fire and a pin job comes in or vice versa?

Rescue can be a combined function, but when you have two "competing" teams in one municpality, plus a third county provided service, then that's a waste.

I don't think they're competing and the 289 Nep scaffolding job proves that point. PD and FD worked well together.

And correction, University Of Medicine And Dentistry New Jerey EMS, in the City of Newark, provides Extrication, not Jersey City.

Yup, that's who I meant.

I always thought that ESU were SWAT trainined I guess I was wrong.

SWAT may be one function of ESU but ESU generally performs many other services besides SWAT. The ESU or CIU trucks in Westchester County do much more than just SWAT. LAPD SWAT is just that, SWAT.

Given the infastructure in the northeast, that plays into factor as well.

What if firefighters were trained to be police officers and carry weapons and make arrests, to help out the PD? Should we train everyone to be a Police Officer-Firefighter-Paramedic so we're all on the same level?

We've discussed this at length in other threads and I think the consensus was no, they shouldn't all be cross-trained.

There are A LOT of differences between Law Enforcement in NY and TX.

I have nothing against cops, I just see a big difference in law enforcement, and I thought it would be an intersting discussion. I meant no offense to anyone. You want to give me a negative rep point for my opinion and point of view because it differs from yours?

I give up, I meant for this to be a compartive discussion of law enforcement roles in different parts of the country, but it got all skewed. But this discussion validated what I thought...

What differences are you referring to?

Your initial post was construed by many, myself included, to be rather critical of cops in NY. I, and others, have responded to dispute your assertions and have done so factually and respectfully. The discussion has also morphed from a comparison of police in Texas and New York to who should provide rescue services in Westchester County and it is slanted against existing PD units.

I wanted to give you a negative rep point because I don't think the initial post articulated your position well and when someone has to start it with a disclaimer that you're not being critical it is generally because they are.

If you want to discuss regional differences in law enforcement let's do that but let's not do so while simultaneously insinuating that cops in NY are somehow less than their peers in Texas.

Finally, your last remark seems to be hlghly inflammatory. What exactly do you mean with that remark?

[INIT915 1,119]

Finally, your last remark seems to be hlghly inflammatory. What exactly do you mean with that remark?

+1

[JJB531 652]

Sorry if you don't like that history has shown that a lot of PD's in the Northeast were providing rescue services long before the Fire Service. Your attempt to compare a highly trained ESU Police Officer performing a Technical Rescue to a barber, who has no training or equipment to perform surgery, is quite comical.

NYPD ESU Officers undergo 28 weeks of training. This includes: 3 weeks of Roco Rope Rescue, 4 days Confined Space Rescue, 1 week of FEMA Building Collapse Technician, 4 weeks of Hazardous Materials (1 week of EPA HazMat Tech, 1 Week of NYPD HazMat In-service, 1 Week at the live agent school in Anniston, and 1 week of radiological training in Mercury, NV), 1 week of Trench Rescue, Firefighter I, 3 weeks of Dive Rescue including surface water and ice rescue, 5 days of Auto Extrication, 4 days of train extrication, 2 days of Vetta Airbags, 1 week of tools (chainsaws, Stanley Tool, breaking/cutting tools, small hand tools, etc.), 2 days of cutting torches (oxyacetylene & Caldo). This doesn't include any yearly in-service training, as well as additional schooling ESU officers attend, either on their own time or through the job. This knowledge base, along with having all the right equipment and resources available to them, makes them quite capable of handling rescue work. I can't remember the last time I saw a barber school where tonsilectomy's were a part of the curriculum?

Not all ESU is SWAT trained... the majority are, but if you look at Nassau County Police Department, their ESU only handles rescue-related work. Nassau County Bureau of Special Operations (BSO), which is actually their street crime unit, handles the traditional SWAT/tactical related types of jobs. Other ESU units only handle SWAT/Law Enforcement related work and do not get involved in rescue work (i.e. New Rochelle PD's CIU)

If you meant for this to be a discussion about comparative differences between Law Enforcement agencies in different parts of the country, specifically targeting Police ESU units and their role in rescue services, along with trying to argue that FD should be solely responsible, was probably not the best way to start off what you perceived would be an informative discussion.

Edited March 8, 2011 by JJB531

[helicopper 1,050]

It doesn't matter about the cops. The Arson Investigators are highly trained and equipped to handle these very specialized types of cases in Houston. They give everything they've found over to the DA, and they (the DA's) are the ones who really pilot the case. If Houston PD has investigated, when it went to trial, the evidence wouldn't have been so strong. It's been proven that arson cases investigated by arson investigators, whether PD, FD, or private- however your municpality laws read.....have a generally higher conviction rate then those investigated by regular detectives or homicide detectives. There's really no reason to turn it over to the PD unless there was an unrelated crime.

However, they do work WITH the ATF and FBI on arson cases

So they don't work with the cops at all? Perhaps that's why the suspect was able to flee the country. They may be exceptional crime scene investigators and handle evidence admirably but the human side of this case was botched. If the PD had been involved perhaps they would might have been able to prevent her flight to avoid prosecution.

Arson is a crime and in this Houston case there were unrelated crimes.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

As far as fire investigation goes, at least in Connecticut, the combination Fire/Police investigation is usually the best way to go. State Police Fire Marshals and/or ATF are always good to use as well, but you can't call them to every fire to handle your investigation.

But most Crime Scene Investigators and Detectives in CT don't get a lot of experience with fire investigations and the laws surrounding them. IE: Administrative search warrants, Michigan v. Tyler, etc. And likewise, Fire Marshals don't have the authority or expertise in writing criminal search warrants or some of the more advanced investigative resources.

I don't know how things work in Westchester for fire investigations, but in CT if the Marshals have a good working relationship with the guys in the Detective Bureau, it goes a long way.

[abaduck 123]

No reason the site owner can't stir a little sh!t from time to time

I'll say this much; in my (fairly limited) experience thus far in the fire service, I've observed one thing; cops generally get to a working fire before we do - and they go in and do everything that needs to be done, and sometimes more than they really should be doing - and all kudos for them for doing it. Would anyone in their right minds consider this 'competition'? If we're not all here to serve our communities in the best way we know how, we're in the wrong jobs.

I'm pretty sure I've read of municipalities which have taken consolidation of services to the logical extreme, and have everyone cross-trained as cops, firefighters, and EMTs. Maybe that's taking it a bit too far, but if you don't have a *real good* insight into the respective jobs (and I for one don't) it's not such a great idea to pontificate about it...

Mike

[CBX4627 114]

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.

Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.

It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them?

I'm not trying to start any problems here...............but if we're gonna start talking FACTS and DATES, then let's get a couple of things clear................FDNY had ALWAYS been doing rescue work, but never had a DEDICATED unit to respond to these types of jobs prior to the formation of the first Rescue company..............FDNY Rescue Company #1 was organized on January 18, 1915, and was placed in service OFFICIALLY on March 6th, 1915.............over 15 years prior to the formation of ANY of NYPD's ESU units.......

And there's no jealousy or hatred here, as I started my career on the NYPD (4-8 Pct).........

[Task Force 7 65]

A study was done on the different styles of police work back in 1968. Here is the quote from the study.

Given the broad mandates of police work, and yet having limited resources, police administrators must develop policies to prioritize and focus their activities. Some of the more controversial policies restrict, or even forbid, high-speed vehicular pursuits.

Three styles of policing develop from a jurisdiction’s socioeconomic characteristics, government organization, and choice of police administrators. According to a study by James Q. Wilson (”Varieties of Police Behavior”, 1968, 1978, Harvard University Press), there were three distinct types of policing developed in his study of eight communities. Each style emphasized different police functions, and were linked to specific characteristics of the community the department served. (Wilson’s field of study was in the United States, and it is not clear if similar studies have been done for other countries with different governmental organization and laws.)

Watchman. Emphasizes maintaining order, usually found in communities with a declining industrial base, and a blue-collar, mixed ethnic/racial population. This form of policing is implicitly less pro-active than other styles, and certain offenses may be “overlooked” on a variety of social, legal, and cultural grounds, as long as the public order is maintained. Smith and Cole comment the broad discretion exercised in this style of policing can result in charges of discrimination, when it appears police treatment of different groups results in the perception that some groups get better treatment than others;

Legalistic. Emphasizes law enforcement and professionalism. This is usually found in reform-minded cities, with mixed socioeconomic composition. Officers are expected to generate a large number of arrests and citations, and act as if there were a single community standard for conduct, rather than different standards for different groups. However, the fact that certain groups are more likely to have law enforcement contact means this strict enforcement of laws may seem overly harsh on certain groups;

Service. Emphasizes the service functions of police work, usually found in suburban, middle-class communities where residents demand individual treatment. Police in homogeneous communities can view their work as protecting their citizens against “outsiders”, with frequent but often-informal interventions against community members. The uniform make-up of the community means crimes are usually more obvious, and therefore less frequent, leaving police free to deal with service functions, and traffic control.

Wilson’s study applies to police behavior for the entire department, over time. At any given time, police officers may be acting in a watchman, service, or legalistic function by nature of what they’re doing at the time, or temperament, or mood. Individual officers may also be inclined to one style or another, regardless of supervisor or citizen demands.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

What is the one thing cops and fireman have in common? They both want to be firemen...

[25truck26 29]

I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas with a large urban police department, working the busiest sector. My father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. And the taxes I pay for PD are to keep my family safe. I pay taxes for the FD and EMS to provide their services. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol.

Down here, cops want to be cops. They want to go out and make arrests, do felony stops, nab DWI and aggresive drivers, etc. They go out and find work, or are dispatched to it-work is plentiful. They follow up with previous victims, and take pride in the sector they work, and knowing it well.

Well reading your posts just pissed me off. I have a lot of pride in being a cop and I enjoy what i do. Maybe the area I work in sucks but I have fun. To say I as a NY cop or any of us cops for that matter don't take pride in our sector or post or we are not out their making arrest or working...You are way off base and seriously doubt you have any evidence to support your claim. I know plenty of us who take pride in our sectors and cops will tell you we don't like another sector picking up our jobs unless they absolutely have to. That's our sector and we will handle. Heavy job comes in (assault, robbery etc..) balls to the wall responding. Sometimes we get into back log because some guys are covering multiple sectors at a time and there are 3 cars out there for 7,8 or more sectors and we are holding jobs BECAUSE WE ARE THAT BUSY!! We don't take pride? Yeah ok.

You worked as a dispatcher? I have a lot of respect for dispatchers but you are not out on the street with us. Your dad was a cop in a busy area? Good for him then he knows the job...NOT YOU! Your worked in a police supply store so you met and talked with cops. I was friends with lot of cops before I got on the job and thought I understood it. WRONG! You don't know what its like or how it feels just because you are friends with or hangout with a cop. Until you are out there on the street doing what needs to be done you don't have a clue. Never will.

If I am wrong or off base someone tell me

[x635 4,066]

If I came across the wrong way, I apologize. I really didn't mean to offend anyone or be inflamatory. Don't read into my statements more then they are meant to be. Whatever I said, caused a discussion in where I learned a lot. It was interesting reading everyone's viewpoints. It really is two seperate worlds. What works down here might not work in NY, and vice versa.

This is something on my mind since I had a discussion with some friends down here about the ESU or Rescue concept working in Texas. There was really no interest, since fire and EMS already provide that service. Many of them stated they'd rather have more officers on the street, or progress in different roles in the department. They did say that NY has a tremendous infastructure and a lot more incidents, so they understood the need for "all hands on deck". I thought I'd present the topic here, but went about it the wrong way.

Please don't label me a "cop hater", because that's not who I am. Regardless of my experience, I'm entitled to have a viewpoint and opinion. I have NOTHING against law enforcement or an "axe to grind", anyone who really knows me knows that I am very supportive of law enforcement, both through this site and personally. I was a Police Dispatcher for the busiest sector of the city I worked for. I do free photography for local police unions at special events and for their personal and professional uses, and I volunteer as a lead advisor of a Police Explorer post to get tommorow's generation interested and ready for a succesful law enforcement career. I also try to support LEO causes through this website as much as I can.

I'm glad we have the knowledgeable members of law enforcement active on this forum as we do, and hope I didn't do anything to comprimise future postings from members in this thread.

Looking at my first post, it was really stupid the way I worded it. However, the Houston investigation, I do stand 100% behind what I said.

As an apology for creating this mess, I've made a donation of $25 (all I can afford right now) to the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund.

[ptwatson 82]

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.

Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.

It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them? Before a lot of Westchester County Fire Departments purchased extrication equipment, extrications on the Westchester County Parkways were handled by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety. Should County PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service on the parkways already provided by them? The Town of Mount Pleasant Police was the sole provider of extrication services within their jurisdiction for years before the local fire departments purchased extrication equipment. Should the Town of Mount Pleasant PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service already being provided by the local PD?

Personally, I have no problem with FD's handling rescue work, and always look forward to working together at a scene rather then battle eachother. The one benefit I see to having both Firefighters and Police Officers assigned to Emergency Service Units taking part in a rescue, is that it gives you a larger talent pool to pull from in the event of a significant incident. There are some ESU officers who are talented rescue specialists, just as there are Firefighters assigned to Rescue Companies who possess the same talents and level of expertise. Being able to draw from the experiences and talents of both individuals at an incident is beneficial to the overall success of the operation.

"So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York."

Rescue 1 1915 Rescue 2 1925 Rescue 3 1931 Rescue 4 1931 Rescue 5 1948. So I don't think the good men of the NYPD ESU were the sole provider's of rescue services. FDNY was right along side of them!

Edited March 8, 2011 by ptwatson

[ffp20 14]

Eli's humorous statement bears some truth, at least "up here".

My intent with thie is not to lead this to a career/volunteer ff bash forum, but, i have to ask: does anyone have any idea of what percentage of ESU members are on volunteer FD's on the island or in upstate counties??

[JJB531 652]

"So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York."

Rescue 1 1915 Rescue 2 1925 Rescue 3 1931 Rescue 4 1931 Rescue 5 1948. So I don't think the good men of the NYPD ESU were the sole provider's of rescue services. FDNY was right along side of them!

FDNY rescue companies were originally formed to rescue firemen, not civilians, in the time when NYC was burning down. No need to get all worked up, both agencies play their part in the "rescue world". I'd rather be able to work alongside a talented group of rescue specialists from any agency (PD/FD/EMS). We should start striving to learn from eachother rather then be at eachothers throats over childish nonsense.