Vehicle Fire With a Twist

[firemoose827 324]

Your department is dispatched to a reported vehicle fire in the local strip mall. The dispatcher can only tell you the call was recieved from a Cell phone, the vehicle is located behind the building in the shipping/receiving area, and the caller hung up before he could gain more info.

Your response is your typical assingment for your department (Be honest and realistic with equipment and manpower! ) and its 1:30PM on a Tuesday in August. Its clear and 91 degrees with a slight breeze.

When you arrive you see this;

http://www.lawrencer.../LRFC_news.html

Unmarked, next to the building, no driver present and the only other person there is the store owner trying to use a garden hose for extinguishment.

What are your priorities? What are the tactical considerations you will use? What factors should you be thinking about when you arrive as a company officer/senior firefighter to see this?

Discuss...

[v85 212]

First, move the person with the garden hose away...

Then, have all members in the area use SCBA's since the contents of the truck are unknown, protect the exposure, and it probably wouldn't hurt to go after the truck itself from a distance (master stream or portable monitor), since you don't know the contents of the truck.

I would also evacuate at least the immediate exposure and probably get HAZMAT at least notified, they probably need to be for the resulting fuel spill anyway, especially since there are often storm drains in the back of stores.

[PEMO3 523]

With the mind set of today, responders need to be cognizant of so called soft-targets with strip malls and placed of public assembly fitting the bill. People think of terrorist targets as midtown Manhattan or mass transit and not downtown Anytown, USA. This allows for the guard to be let down just enough for the unspeakable. The fact that this is an unmarked box truck with no driver to be found should raise a "red flag" to responders to use added caution approaching the vehicle as it may not be as simple a vehicle fire. A quick question of the store owner with the hose if he was expecting a delivery may increase that "red flag" issue if the response is a no. A proactive, cautionary, and defensive approach can mean the difference between going home in the rig or a bag.

[firemoose827 324]

I believe this is the set of pictures...

Thats the one, but just the first picture! I didnt want the whole story and the rest of the pics but this will do, THANKS!

With the mind set of today, responders need to be cognizant of so called soft-targets with strip malls and placed of public assembly fitting the bill. People think of terrorist targets as midtown Manhattan or mass transit and not downtown Anytown, USA. This allows for the guard to be let down just enough for the unspeakable. The fact that this is an unmarked box truck with no driver to be found should raise a "red flag" to responders to use added caution approaching the vehicle as it may not be as simple a vehicle fire. A quick question of the store owner with the hose if he was expecting a delivery may increase that "red flag" issue if the response is a no. A proactive, cautionary, and defensive approach can mean the difference between going home in the rig or a bag.

This is exactly right. Oddly enough I posted this about a month ago, maybe more, so it was before all of the media with bin-ladden and I just wanted to keep everyone on their toes and thinking about each call, and not falling back into the "Routine" call mode.

Keep the posts coming.

Store owner was not expecting a delivery and he is now starting to experience difficulty breathing and chest pressure.

You see something leaking from the rear box and its a funky looking color...

[x129K 1,393]

Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians!

[v85 212]

Not expecting a delivery and leaking funny colored stuff?

Expand the isolation and evacuation zones and call a HAZ-MAT team.

If the HAZMAT team approves it, maybe some extremely defensive ops, ie fogging the box truck and exposure from an unmanned ladder pipe positioned at the edge of the hot zone.

Other than that, the rest depends on your department's capabilities. Are any of your members HAZMAT specialists or technicians, does your units carry level A PPE, do you have air quality monitoring gear, do you have the capabilities and training to set up emergency decon for the store owner?

[SOUSGT 357]

First, move the person with the garden hose away...

Then, have all members in the area use SCBA's since the contents of the truck are unknown, protect the exposure, and it probably wouldn't hurt to go after the truck itself from a distance (master stream or portable monitor), since you don't know the contents of the truck.

I would also evacuate at least the immediate exposure and probably get HAZMAT at least notified, they probably need to be for the resulting fuel spill anyway, especially since there are often storm drains in the back of stores.

The chief sets a fine example. Working a hand line by himself with out a SCBA. Lots of smoke close up, unknown contents. Priceless

The first picture shows a FF without a SCBA but at least he seems to have sence to stay back.

[firemoose827 324]

The chief sets a fine example. Working a hand line by himself with out a SCBA. Lots of smoke close up, unknown contents. Priceless

The first picture shows a FF without a SCBA but at least he seems to have sence to stay back.

LOL, agreed, but just to re-clarify. I only wanted to show the one picture of the truck on fire in close proximity to the building. I did not want to show all the other pictures.( I knew it would start just that kind of talk! LOL)

SO please, everyone, only focus on the one picture and the info I gave about the incident and try not to bash this department in the pictures. Thanks!

[x129K 1,393]

Protect the exposure until you can learn more on the vehicle

[dwcfireman 656]

Not expecting a delivery and leaking funny colored stuff?

Expand the isolation and evacuation zones and call a HAZ-MAT team.

If the HAZMAT team approves it, maybe some extremely defensive ops, ie fogging the box truck and exposure from an unmanned ladder pipe positioned at the edge of the hot zone.

Also keep an eye out for anything else that looks out of the norm. Many "home-grown" terrorists in the past have used secondary devices to injure and kill firefighters and other first responders who have come to mitigate the original hazard (i.e. the abortion clinic bombings of the 90's). At this rate, definitely expand the isolation zone, maybe even evacuate the entire strip mall if you deem it necessary.

And I completely agree with keeping the distant. I like the idea of the unmanned ladder pipe. If there's no one in the truck, why put our lives at risk for a vehicle that's already destroyed.

[wraftery 1,275]

With the mind set of today, responders need to be cognizant of so called soft-targets with strip malls and placed of public assembly fitting the bill. People think of terrorist targets as midtown Manhattan or mass transit and not downtown Anytown, USA. This allows for the guard to be let down just enough for the unspeakable. The fact that this is an unmarked box truck with no driver to be found should raise a "red flag" to responders to use added caution approaching the vehicle as it may not be as simple a vehicle fire. A quick question of the store owner with the hose if he was expecting a delivery may increase that "red flag" issue if the response is a no. A proactive, cautionary, and defensive approach can mean the difference between going home in the rig or a bag.

Re: terrorism; I know this is a general scenario, but you might find this interesting. If you saw the web site for the large batch of pics, it was Lawrenceville, NJ...the home of the NJ Governor's Mansion. This should give you a little something else to add to your size up.

[FFBlaser 24]

Well, considering it is unmarked... I can't look in the resource book that is carried on all our rigs... Being the IC... I ask dispatch to tone out the DMAT team, the EOD team, the Rehab Team, County Air, and then ask for a second mutual aid engine... take a few looks from a distance with the TIC... Evacuate the immediate area... and let the specialists check it out while me and my crew ready some sort of knock down plan to use when we have our results and make sure all of my guys and gals are healthy.

[helicopper 1,050]

Well, considering it is unmarked... I can't look in the resource book that is carried on all our rigs... Being the IC... I ask dispatch to tone out the DMAT team, the EOD team, the Rehab Team, County Air, and then ask for a second mutual aid engine... take a few looks from a distance with the TIC... Evacuate the immediate area... and let the specialists check it out while me and my crew ready some sort of knock down plan to use when we have our results and make sure all of my guys and gals are healthy.

Hi Nate,

I have a couple of questions... (this is not second guessing or criticism, you may have different terms or plans for things out west than we do here in Mayberry)

Is the Disaster Medical Assistance Team (DMAT) one of the federally established units or is that a local term for EMS mutual aid?

By County Air do you mean a mask service unit or aviation? What role will aviation play if that's what you meant?

Why only a single engine? Isn't this going to require haz-mat operations? What about haz-mat resources? Aren't those operations going to require layers of resources in the different zones (hot, warm, cold) and a decon corridor?

Thanks for your response,

Chris

[FFBlaser 24]

Hey Helicopper,

Our hazmat resources are called DMAT. For what reason I have no idea. I have very little training in that field and we are told to dispatch them as often as possible when we don't feel as if the scene is considered a text book incident ( well most aren't but you get what i'm trying to get across).

County air is 24/7 staffed air cascade unit.

With most car fires we have a mutual aide plan where the whole region is paged out to aide our department... Typically on a response to a car fire my dept. would have an engine, attack, and our two tankers, Plus whatever resources the mutual aide brings and I can request them to bring what is necessary. The DMAT team is maid up of several pieces of apparatus ( trucks, trailers, the whole deal) and we can ask the city paid dept. to bring in their Hazmat crew as well if the situation requires it.

My apologies for the confusion, we have been running the same drill for the ISO test for the last 24 hours.

Nate

[firemoose827 324]

Also keep an eye out for anything else that looks out of the norm. Many "home-grown" terrorists in the past have used secondary devices to injure and kill firefighters and other first responders who have come to mitigate the original hazard (i.e. the abortion clinic bombings of the 90's). At this rate, definitely expand the isolation zone, maybe even evacuate the entire strip mall if you deem it necessary.

And I completely agree with keeping the distant. I like the idea of the unmanned ladder pipe. If there's no one in the truck, why put our lives at risk for a vehicle that's already destroyed.

Hmm... Blue lights on a POV and you think it's law enforcement, huh? Maybe you better think again.

As for all the suggestions to continue fighting the fire with water while an unknown susbstance is leaking from the truck, what if the substance is water reactive? Especially with the store owner starting to exhibit symptoms, I'd be concerned that we might be making it worse.

There is two things I was looking for initially. I wanted to see if everyone looked for the secondary device and if anyone stated they would attempt to find the drivers shipping papers to determine what is carried and if it is going to react to water. Excellent points.

There was a secondary device planted in the door going into the rear loading dock set to go off when firefighters forced the door to check for extension into the building. Terrorists study their targets and they would know firefighters perform overhaul and check for extension so they rigged this.

They also set up secondary devices in areas they know the EMS and Fire units would be staging in like large parking lots nearby, or parking garages, etc. Goog things to be thinking about.

Keep them coming.

Fire is out and the substance is still leaking from the rear cargo door of van.

Police bomb squad on scene handling device in loading dock door, haz-mat on scene but not set up yet and requesting more information. Where would you be able to get information on an un-identified substance? Anyone know where to look or who to call?

If there are any haz-mat guys/gals out there please chime in and give some input.

Thanks for the responses so far.

[helicopper 1,050]

Hey Helicopper,

Our hazmat resources are called DMAT. For what reason I have no idea. I have very little training in that field and we are told to dispatch them as often as possible when we don't feel as if the scene is considered a text book incident ( well most aren't but you get what i'm trying to get across).

County air is 24/7 staffed air cascade unit.

With most car fires we have a mutual aide plan where the whole region is paged out to aide our department... Typically on a response to a car fire my dept. would have an engine, attack, and our two tankers, Plus whatever resources the mutual aide brings and I can request them to bring what is necessary. The DMAT team is maid up of several pieces of apparatus ( trucks, trailers, the whole deal) and we can ask the city paid dept. to bring in their Hazmat crew as well if the situation requires it.

My apologies for the confusion, we have been running the same drill for the ISO test for the last 24 hours.

Nate

No apologies necessary. Thanks for clarifying. Lots of different acronyms for sure...

[Task Force 7 65]

You can call CHEMTREC. (Chemical Transportation Emergency Center)

[v85 212]

You can call CHEMTREC. (Chemical Transportation Emergency Center)

Just curious, what are their capabilities? Can they help you identify an unknown substance, or do you need a placard number when you call?

[BFD1054 1,552]

Everyone relax....the box truck has Jersey plates, probably just a load of spray tanner and hair gel

Thank god for the POV with the blue light, great placement!

[firemoose827 324]

Just curious, what are their capabilities? Can they help you identify an unknown substance, or do you need a placard number when you call?

Some Haz-Mat teams with big budgets can afford to purchase a detector that can run tests on samples taken from the spill and lable what it is, on scene, from a database. BUT, its very expensive! I have only seen it on a training video, and know of no department in my area that even has one. But they may be able to send someone out to take samples for you, but that takes time.

Everyone relax....the box truck has Jersey plates, probably just a load of spray tanner and hair gel

Thank god for the POV with the blue light, great placement!

[fireguy30 13]

ok from the pic if its just the cab and not extending into the box send 2 guys to put the fire out and 4 guys 2 with a line to open up the back door to see whats inside are rule is every door gets open at car fires even if its just the eng. we open them all even trunk never know what could be in there then if need be call hazmat but if you are from where i am you know when u call for hazmnat all you get is one guy and then he decides if the team is needed wich i think is bulls#@t if you ask me if you have a team and call for it get it not have one guy all the time call up and say hold the team ill go and look just my 2 cents

[SOUSGT 357]

Everyone relax....the box truck has Jersey plates, probably just a load of spray tanner and hair gel

Thank god for the POV with the blue light, great placement!

Oh sure hair gel and spray tanner, better special call the Mop and Glow unit from FDNY.. Have you read whats in that stuff!

[wraftery 1,275]

This scenaario really escalated into something BIG!

Everyone who recognized signs that something might be awry are correct in escalating this to a major Hazmat or terror incident.

On the other hand the vast, vast, VAST majority of truck fires are just that...truck fires. Ive seen a "Unable to Locate a Driver" situation because the driver simply didn't have a valid license so he wasn't going to volunteer any info. Also, if I were the driver of that truck my priorities might be to call my boss and talk to the fireman later. After all, the FD guys are probably too busy to talk right now.

Have you ever been behind a NJ strip mall? Each strip mall probably has a dozen packages back there that would be "suspicious" if you use a little imagination.

If it really looks like a terrorist act, call whoever you want (Hazmat, Bomb Squad, etc) but before your fingers do the walking. get yourself and your people 1000 yds down the road and behind something substantial. As you run away, use your rig's speaker to suggest the civilians in the area take the same actions. The bad guys want to kill you.