Armonk - Plane Crash - DISCUSSION

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Loopy31 and Joetnymedic great posts!

I dont see how anyone can argue this response. You guys did what was asked of yourselves and your respective Departments. The average Joe back step firefighter had nothing to do with creating the responses for the airport, you just show up when the radio goes off and do your thing, and for you guys to have to see this Monday morning quarterbacking is sad. The same people will be there to knock you when you send to little out the doors. Good job guys.

[MELILLO719 30]

Loopy31 and Joetnymedic great posts!

I dont see how anyone can argue this response. You guys did what was asked of yourselves and your respective Departments. The average Joe back step firefighter had nothing to do with creating the responses for the airport, you just show up when the radio goes off and do your thing, and for you guys to have to see this Monday morning quarterbacking is sad. The same people will be there to knock you when you send to little out the doors. Good job guys.

Thank you for that couldn't have said it better

[firedude 985]

Shouldn't the dispatch information come across as Alert 3, level 2, instead of Alert Level 2 which it was dispatched as? Since I come from both sides of the house, flight and emergency response, I'm just trying to figure out (and I'm not criticizing anyone) when 60-control dispatches an Alert Level 2, are they giving the information in red or green out?

Great Info by the way but what was the time of the initial dispatch? The aircraft crashed around 1307hrs. Was the dispatch prior to the crash or while it was aflight?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Great Info by the way but what was the time of the initial dispatch? The aircraft crashed around 1307hrs. Was the dispatch prior to the crash or while it was aflight?

I heard the initial dispatch at around 1312. It was "for a plane down."

Edited June 21, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[firedude 985]

I heard the initial dispatch at around 1312. I was "for a plane down."

ok, so it should have been Alert 3, Level 2 for the initial dispatch. Airport 7 or 11 should have signed on to 60 Control via the trunked and updated 60-Control and responding units on the condition.

[x635 4,066]

Loopy31, EXCELLENT POST!

It should be noted that the 2005 incident killed Empress EMS Paramedic Lev Naoumov, who was taking flying lessons. The instructor was also killed.

[helicopper 1,050]

ok, so it should have been Alert 3, Level 2 for the initial dispatch. Airport 7 or 11 should have signed on to 60 Control via the trunked and updated 60-Control and responding units on the condition.

The airport's plan is different than the guidelines from the FAA. They use the alert levels to guide responders on the kind/capacity of the aircraft not the nature of the emergency.

As loopy stated, this was an alert 1 by definition but was dispatched as an alert 2.

Airport 7 and 11 wouldn't have had any information to provide 60-Control via the trunked or any other radio since the plane went down off-airport and the location/conditions were unknown.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

ok, so it should have been Alert 3, Level 2 for the initial dispatch. Airport 7 or 11 should have signed on to 60 Control via the trunked and updated 60-Control and responding units on the condition.

How about PLAN LANGUAGE, like small plane down or Lear jet down or Jet Blue down ? We are smart enough to know about how many soles are on board [or could be] level 1, level 2, alert 7, alert 007, punt ! when your in a rig responding by your self Engine 58,59 chiefs all depts opts 5, radio this,radio that,up yours ! I hate that place let me do my job !OH YEA I forgot about Captain ***** so the county knows we have a terorist on board our rig and they can kill them !,after 40 years of responing to the airport I'm done good night !

[aviator70 16]

Isnt the internet grand. I had no idea how much fuel was in it, until I googled it and found 3 different sites that listed 28 gallons. I gues they were wrong. So a single saddle tank leaking/on fire on a truck needs 8 engines?

Yes I have read it and commented on it many times. It has evolved, but just because the FAA agreed on it does not even make it an acceptable plan. In past versions the FAA said it was ok, with 18 fire trucks and 1 ambulance responding to a confirmed crash of a commercial airliner....only 1 ambulance ("becuase we do not want to strip communities of EMS"). Another version determined that we would not need EMS because they never came to the planning meetings...oh "We forgot to tell them there were meetings".

Flight 232 in Souix City moved 60+ patients off the field in about an hour. Every drill we have had got stopped 90-120 minutes in with no more than a dozen transported because we were taxing our responders.

You are correct. The FAA knows nothing about putting a plan together like this. It is not their business. In reality, the FAA only cares about what happens on the airfield with planning. I am familiar with the plan, but not who and how it was developed. It may be overkill in cases with small aircraft like this. I would not personally be willing to make that call or claim though as I am not familar with its development.

[aviator70 16]

Coming from a small background in Flight Ops when I went to school... Why is Westchester County the only airport that I know of, to list the Alert as the number of souls aboard the craft? Normally the Alert is defined in the FAR's (which is the governing body of flight rules, like OSHA is for safety) as:

Alert 1 - Plane is in the air reporting an emergency - crash is possible i.e. systems still functional, yet experiencing an minor emergency - stand by in quarters (or at the entrance to the field)

Alert 2 - Plane is in the air reporting an emergency - crash is probable i.e. loss of system powers, major system failure - respond and stand-by at the runway

Alert 3 - Crash has, or will definitely occur either at or in close proximity to the airport

Levels are to identify the response based off of souls. If my memory serves me correctly:

Level 1 is 1-2 souls

Level 2 is 3-10

Level 3 is 11-20 (or 25 i cannot remember)

Level 4 is ? - 50

Level 5 is 51+

Shouldn't the dispatch information come across as Alert 3, level 2, instead of Alert Level 2 which it was dispatched as? Since I come from both sides of the house, flight and emergency response, I'm just trying to figure out (and I'm not criticizing anyone) when 60-control dispatches an Alert Level 2, are they giving the information in red or green out?

Because Westchester does everything backward and changes only after everybody else changes. County PD just went Plain English, FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Westchester always has to be different.

[aviator70 16]

The airport does have an approved plan in place but this accident wasn't on the airport property so it really didn't apply. It sounds like the plan was implemented early on but the jurisdictions involved had final authority over the scene, not the county airport.

The airport response and FAA regulations that they're based on have absolutely nothing to do with this tragic accident.

Agreed.

[dadbo46 50]

Because Westchester does everything backward and changes only after everybody else changes. County PD just went Plain English, FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Westchester always has to be different.

No more signal 4's or 9's ? Bummer !!

[firedude 985]

How about PLAN LANGUAGE, like small plane down or Lear jet down or Jet Blue down ? We are smart enough to know about how many soles are on board [or could be] level 1, level 2, alert 7, alert 007, punt ! when your in a rig responding by your self Engine 58,59 chiefs all depts opts 5, radio this,radio that,up yours ! I hate that place let me do my job !OH YEA I forgot about Captain ***** so the county knows we have a terorist on board our rig and they can kill them !,after 40 years of responing to the airport I'm done good night !

I understand where you are coming from but than what is the point of signal codes and 10 codes? Most People are familiar with Boeing, Airbus and gulfstream, some are familiar with aircraft like the Boeing 747 and 737. However have you ever heard of Canadair, CRJ or a piagio? There are aircraft manafactures and aircraft models that people oustide the industry haven't heard of. There are evan private planes that come in to HPN that are bigger then B6's A320s. Most aviation related incidents do not include Part 119 operations (Commercial Service) or Part 135 ops(Charter and Private Aircraft). More often it is smaller general aviation aircraft. If you hear that a cessna has crashed, do you immediately think that it is a small aircraft? There is an aircraft that cessna makes that can hold up to 18 occupants and hold close to 2,000 gallons of Jet A fuel. If you heard a gulfstream was involved in a crash, do you know which type of gulfstream? Gulfstream has manafactured 14 different types of aircraft. The shortest gulfstream is 63ft long and longest is 99ft long. Gulfstreams can hold anywhere between 2-24 people. For most flights, there really is no need to guess or estiamte the numbers of soles on board or how much fuel is on board. If the aircraft is on any type of flightplan, this type of info is submited and kept with ATC when you submit that flightplan. Every single air traffic controler has access to that info.

Yes, there is a better way to organize this info for first responders but for now, the alert and level system will have to work.

Again, I understand what you say but I think the more information you have prior to ariving on scene, the more prepared you are.

Edited June 21, 2011 by firedude

[mfc2257 464]

How about PLAN LANGUAGE, like small plane down or Lear jet down or Jet Blue down ? We are smart enough to know about how many soles are on board [or could be] level 1, level 2, alert 7, alert 007, punt ! when your in a rig responding by your self Engine 58,59 chiefs all depts opts 5, radio this,radio that,up yours ! I hate that place let me do my job !OH YEA I forgot about Captain ***** so the county knows we have a terorist on board our rig and they can kill them !,after 40 years of responing to the airport I'm done good night !

Honestly, I've never seen a better post that describes firefighting as a whole in Weatchester let alone a plane crash.

[firedude 985]

I am just wondering, if this event happened on airport property (inside the AOA) who has command? Is there a cheif or suppervisor with HPN ARFF that takes command with an incident. Yes, the airport is in 3 different fire districts, but I think the fire districts stop at the perimeter fence. I think the airport is it's own district. Am i right?According to the Westchester GIS Fire district map, the airport is it's own fire district. However, it also shows that the airport is divided into 3 EMS districts.

Edited June 21, 2011 by firedude

[helicopper 1,050]

Off-topic and inappropriate exchanges in this thread have been removed and the thread is reopened for discussion related to the incident.

Please use the PM system for personal exchanges and/or start a new thread for other topics.

Thank you.

The EMTBravo Staff

[JBJ1202 27]

I'd like to thank Loopy31 for posting an accurate account of what happened on Saturday. Sometimes people are so desperate for information that they take the first thing they see and run with it. Incredible how a person listening to transmissions on a scanner is cited before members who were at the scene. Not saying that people listening and posting were being malicious, just saying its easy to miss something or misinterpret transmissions.

JBJ