Building Codes

[Remember585 815]

Question:

How would a person or an organization propose a local building code change/addition?

For example, Knox Boxes.

Thanks.

[antiquefirelt 994]

It likely depends on the form of government your municipality "enjoys". Where I work we must get a city councilor to sponsor the ordinance (new or change) and then take it through a multi-step process. The process includes a first reading before the council and public in attendance, where it likely becomes media worthy. The second reading meeting allows for public comments and question/answers. If there is no objection and the council is unanimous it can pass in second reading or if further review is necessary a final reading meeting/vote is held. Of course the number of forms of democracy city to city, town to town and state to state vary immensely, so who knows?

Our Know Box Ordinance is part of our fire alarm ordinance that requires any building with a required reporting system to have a Knox Box if an RP isn't within a 10 minute response time. It takes very little convincing for most business owners, given the costs of just one door or replacement glass.

Edited October 7, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[dashield 61]

The NYS Fire code already allows the AHJ to require a Knox box. Are you asking about a more restrictive local ordinance?

Question:

How would a person or an organization propose a local building code change/addition?

For example, Knox Boxes.

Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The NYS Fire code already allows the AHJ to require a Knox box. Are you asking about a more restrictive local ordinance?

The ANJ in Croton most likely is the building inspector/official. He/she can enforce it if he/she wans to or if his boss (Village manager) directly or via the village board orders it.

If you are looking for other changes that are not under the current code the village can pass it as a local code and then attempt to get it approved by the state code council (good luck, thats not easy).

There are many fire safety features in the NYS UFP&BC (code) that local building officials do not activly push, that is the reason most career depts. have been given the authority by the AHJ to enforce components of the code.

[Remember585 815]

Specifically...

I'm trying to push for both a Knox Box law within the Village. I am also looking to change the local code for fire alarms. Currently the code says they must go to the local PD #, but to comply with NFPA regulations (and do what makes sense) I want it to go directly to our dispatcher (60 Control).

Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm trying to push for both a Knox Box law within the Village. I am also looking to change the local code for fire alarms. Currently the code says they must go to the local PD #, but to comply with NFPA regulations (and do what makes sense) I want it to go directly to our dispatcher (60 Control).

As stated you already have the knox box, just need to enforce it.

We found an effective way to get it is to make sure the owner knows you will force the door each time there is an alarm. even the stuborn ones given after the 2nd time.

Suggest the alarm issue and the potential liability for not following standards to the village attorney. They may run the ball for you.

Also, the fire district may need to go through Cortlandt Town to get that part of your district included. If it already is, make sure Croton knows it.

[dashield 61]

John,

Below is the section directly out of the NYS Fire code regarding knox boxes. In the town that I am a C.E.O. for we require the installation of knox boxes on any new commercial structure and we require the installation of a box on any building that the FD has had an issue waiting for a key holder. In the city I work for they have a city ordinance in addition to the state code requiring it on any commercial property.

Just make sure that you have a well spelled out policy covering how the knox box master key is secured, inventory of the master key and who has access to the master key.

KEY BOXES

§F506.1 Where required. Where access to or within a structure or an area is

restricted because of secured openings or where immediate access is

necessary for life-saving or fire-fighting purposes, the code enforcement

official is authorized to require a key box to be installed in an approved

location. The key box shall be of an approved type and shall contain keys to

gain necessary access as required by the code enforcement official.

§F506.1.1 Locks. An approved lock shall be installed on gates or similar

barriers when required by the code enforcement official.

§F506.2 Key box maintenance. The operator of the building shall immediately

notify the code enforcement official and provide the new key when a lock is

changed or rekeyed. The key to such lock shall be secured in the key box.

Edited October 8, 2012 by dashield

[wraftery 1,275]

Another example of wording is the Town of Greenburgh Code Sec100

See Greenburghny.com. It appears under Town Code on the left hand menu.

Greenurgh Code.doc

I found that business owners and managers were against the institution of this ordinance because of their security concerns. Once we explain all the whys and wherefors of the law, especially that we can make entry using the "Big Key", they often see the light.

You might want to use this scenario on your store managers:

It's 2am on a December night. The weather is 20 degrees, windy, and just starting to snow heavily. Your fire alarm system activates and you are the responsible party for the business. We call you as a contact and request your presence so we can make entry without damage. What do you want to happen?

A. You get in your car and drive to your store, hoping that the snow doesn't get worse and you may not be able to get back home.

B. We break the door to get in. (The PD will call in a few minutes telling you that you must secure the premises)

C. The FD calls you and says the alarm activated, we made entry via Knox Key and found it to be an alarm malfunction, we reset your systems (both fire and burglary) and secured the building. There is no need to even get out of bed.

AS one lady said "You mean I don't have to come down here in m Jammies anymore? Where do I sign?"

[SteveOFD 176]

Specifically...

I'm trying to push for both a Knox Box law within the Village. I am also looking to change the local code for fire alarms. Currently the code says they must go to the local PD #, but to comply with NFPA regulations (and do what makes sense) I want it to go directly to our dispatcher (60 Control).

Thanks.

John,

The 2010 Fire Code of New York State references the 2007 edition of NFPA 72 - National Fire Alarm Code. Chapter 8 - Supervising Station Fire Alarm Systems (which are what we refer to as "central station" alarms) section 8.2.1 - Alarm Signal Disposition states "Except as permitted by 11.7.8.2, all fire alarm signals received by a supervising station shall be immediately retransmitted to the public fire service communications center."

The above noted section 11.7.8.2 refers to Household Fire Alarm Systems. This section states "Remote monitoring locations shall be permitted to verify alarm signals prior to reporting them to the fire service, provided that the verification process does not delay the reporting by more than 90 seconds".

You may want to push for this change now, the 2010 edition of NFPA 72 - (renamed) National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, section 26.2.1 states "Except as permitted by 29.7.8.2, all fire alarm signals received by a supervising station shall be immediately retransmitted to the communications center". So, when NYS adopts the 2010 edition of NFPA 72, the reference to "public fire service communications center" goes away.

[antiquefirelt 994]

C. The FD calls you and says the alarm activated, we made entry via Knox Key and found it to be an alarm malfunction, we reset your systems (both fire and burglary) and secured the building. There is no need to even get out of bed.

AS one lady said "You mean I don't have to come down here in m Jammies anymore? Where do I sign?"

We don't allow C. as we require an RP secure the building every time. In the last 10 years I think maybe a handful (only two I personally know of) of times we've not had an RP respond. In those case they most verbalize they acknowledge all risk and liability on a recorded line with dispatch. This stems from past incidents where things were reported damaged or missing by tenants or the owner, though none of which went anywhere. It seems like there's a lot of little things that might go wrong: which lights are left on, which are off, was that door locked or not, are their multiple tenants whom have no knowledge of our entry, etc. Best in our minds that the owner or their assigned RP take responsibility for the building, the Knox Box allows them to take a bit more time.

[wraftery 1,275]

We don't allow C. as we require an RP secure the building every time. In the last 10 years I think maybe a handful (only two I personally know of) of times we've not had an RP respond. In those case they most verbalize they acknowledge all risk and liability on a recorded line with dispatch. This stems from past incidents where things were reported damaged or missing by tenants or the owner, though none of which went anywhere. It seems like there's a lot of little things that might go wrong: which lights are left on, which are off, was that door locked or not, are their multiple tenants whom have no knowledge of our entry, etc. Best in our minds that the owner or their assigned RP take responsibility for the building, the Knox Box allows them to take a bit more time.

I guess it's whatever floats your boat. I don't recall any complaints after we closed up. We just lock up the reverse of the way we unlocked. For most stores only the front door gets unlocked, so it's a no brainer to re-lock. And, in all my time, I don't recall ever turning lights on for an auto alarm investigation.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And, in all my time, I don't recall ever turning lights on for an auto alarm investigation.

Chief was it actually refered to as "turning the lights on" back when you needed to light them?

Sorry I had too

[wraftery 1,275]

Chief was it actually refered to as "turning the lights on" back when you needed to light them?

Sorry I had too

Yes, Grasshopper, we would TURN the knob on the side of the kerosene lamps thus raising the wick and giving us more light.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I guess it's whatever floats your boat. I don't recall any complaints after we closed up. We just lock up the reverse of the way we unlocked. For most stores only the front door gets unlocked, so it's a no brainer to re-lock. And, in all my time, I don't recall ever turning lights on for an auto alarm investigation.

I suspect there are some difference between the first due areas? While we have plenty of single occupancies that are fairly "simple" we also run on numerous large warehouses and moderately sized industrial buildings where there is no on site security staff. I suspect those types of facilities in your area had more staffed security? It sounds like NYS laws require more responsibility on the building/facility ownership that up here? Not to mention that a good portion of the time we find an issue that must be addresses, such as bad water pressure switch or dead air compressor that floods the system, or detectors that must be replace or cleaned for a decent reset. But if it works and your governing body is OK with it, it would seem to make life easier.

[wraftery 1,275]

I suspect there are some difference between the first due areas? While we have plenty of single occupancies that are fairly "simple" we also run on numerous large warehouses and moderately sized industrial buildings where there is no on site security staff. I suspect those types of facilities in your area had more staffed security? It sounds like NYS laws require more responsibility on the building/facility ownership that up here? Not to mention that a good portion of the time we find an issue that must be addresses, such as bad water pressure switch or dead air compressor that floods the system, or detectors that must be replace or cleaned for a decent reset. But if it works and your governing body is OK with it, it would seem to make life easier.

Sorry for the apparent misunderstanding. I was saying that if you get an auto alarm in say, a taxpayer, with no apparent cause for alarm, it is a simple "alarm system malfunction" and the presence of an RP is not required. A bad compressor on a dry system is a different story. Now I would call for an RP. It's a command decision. That's why they pay us the big bucks.

On a side note, many of the small national chain stores have store managers that don't last too long. They change managers more often then I change my socks. When you call for an RP, you find that the RP doesn't work there anymore.

In this case,(or even for private residences or places without lock boxes) We use a "while you were out form" that we leave in plain sight. It just says something like:

Time...Date...We responded for a reported_______.

We made/did not make entry. Entry was made via Knox key/forced entry at________with damage/no damage

Situation found________________Action taken_________________

Building Secured/not secured, turned over to PD

For more info or a copy of the incident report call 555-1212

[antiquefirelt 994]

Sorry for the apparent misunderstanding. I was saying that if you get an auto alarm in say, a taxpayer, with no apparent cause for alarm, it is a simple "alarm system malfunction" and the presence of an RP is not required.

No misunderstanding, we're just pretty tough on this based on the department's past few bad experiences. Every alarm gets an RP regardless of occupancy is the policy. I know I like "turning the building over to an RP" but it could be that this is the only system I've known. I also know that on the other side of this coin, not requiring the RP when there's no issue would help sell many more businesses on Knox Boxes and make many RP's and owners much happier, but alas, at times it appears we're extremely liability adverse. Edited October 9, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[RWC130 594]

I would think since Croton PD no longer is the dispatch agency for Croton FD a notification should be made to all alarm companies that fire alarm calls (ADT, etc) should be placed to XXX-XXXX local Croton number which goes directly to 60-Control.

If not, I can only assume this will delay a fire alarm notification.