Radio Redundancy And Wasted Airtime

[x635 4,066]

Recently, a new aspect the cluster of a radio system called 46.26 has been irking me....

It seems many, many apparatus operators or officers feel the need to draw out their transmissions for as long as possible by repeating the same facts in the same transmission.

For Example:

"Anytown Engine X In Service, Responding"

That transmission, IMO, is redundant, prolonged and ineffective. First of all, with this county's numbering system, you don't need to say your municipality. We know that by when you identify as Engine X. Second, if you are responding, chances are, you are in service. So that transmission can be accomplished just as effectively by saying "Engine X responding" then the above.

The next issue is, I hear several departments who each time and apparatus signs on, each individual apparatus states "Anytown Engine X In Service, Responding 792 West Central Street" then two minutes later "Anytown Ladder X In Service Responding 792 West Central Street Round Tire Incorporated" What is the need for every single apparatus to state the location they are responding to when there is only one alarm in progress for that department? Meanwhile, other departments cannot get their message across because one department feels the need to hog the air.

46.26 is a very congested frequency as it is. Regardless of who was here first and who holds the license, we all need to realize the problems, and work together to share this frequency until something a better solution is implemented. This includes everybody who talks on the radio, and this especially includes department chiefs and line officers, who need to start working with and enforcing their members use of proper radio ettiquette, including concise radio transmissions. It's all part of a thing we are lacking severly in this county...respect for one another.

[TRUCK6018 50]

When an IC radios to dispatch that "all units are 10-8, 10-2, it is not a cue for each individual unit to do the same.

[Guest]

Point exactly!!! If the IC says everyone is in service that is it, end of story. Also, once you call in service from a scene, I don't think the unit has to say back in quarters in service as well. Use the damn phone if you need to talk...18-2 lol There is definitely too much unnessary radio traffic. Make it short and sweet, to the point!! Don't drag it on, and embarrass your whole Dept.

[WAS967 97]

each time and apparatus signs on, each individual apparatus states "Anytown Engine X In Service, Responding 792 West Central Street"

I personally call the location when I'm responding just as confirmation that I heard correctly and am going to the right place. Tho I probably shouldn't anymore since half the times I call responding to the wrong location, nobody picks up on it and corrects me.

[wcr20 17]

reminds me of an old saying - about a former co-volunteer of mine... "Never use a sentence where a paragraph will suffice..."

[Guest]

A number of FD personel love to hear themselves speak on the radio, or they want thier friends to hear them, I agree there is a lot of wasted talk on 46.26. It won't change anytime soon. ](*,)

[210 91]

Stationed around the world and the U.S. with the Air Force. Same problem everywhere. I n the police dept I work with now we have a handfull of "I love to hear myself talk" officers. We are going to plain text in the near future which has alot of officers upset. I'm undecided still weighing the pros and cons.

[JBE 328]

A number of FD personel love to hear themselves speak on the radio

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Stiles 0]

Unfortunately there are many out there who love to listen to themselves talk on the radio.

Another annoyance....those who overemphasize the NY City accent when on the air, even though the grew up in No. Westchester. Just say what needs to be said in a clear, normal tone then get off.

[MGMedic 0]

Starting a transmission with "be advised". If you're transmitting, you're advising!!!

[Guest]

For Example:

"Anytown Engine X In Service, Responding"

Wait, if you're responding, then you're really out of service.....no? 8-[

Just busting chops, but seriously, radio traffic is crazy. Personal pet peave......sizing up a building and then saying that there's nothing showing. I know its gotta be fun to say all that, but does everyone really need a size up if there is no emergency?!

Okay, finished that quick vent....

[DMA327 12]

The best is when a unit gets on and repeats the nature and location of the call like the dispatcher didn't know or they had so many other calls going on that they had to say which they were going to LOL!

[doug_e 0]

I've always thought of 10-2 as a command call not an advisory call. Meaning the IC can have all apparatus 10-2 but an apparatus should not call 10-2 as in "Engine# is 10-8 10-2". You only need to inform the dispatcher that you are 10-8. At some point you will be returning to quarters we can figure that out.

What about 10-40?

Another one that makes me crazy is one that was mentioned above, "All apparatus can go 10-8, 10-2".

Now I know that Chief's are very important :wink: and that they are extremely intelligent :---) but how do they know that I'm in service? They know they want me to return to quarters but they have no idea as to my in service status. Even if they are looking directly at me and my apparatus. A good IC will leave that up to the apparatus officer and tell the dispatcher that "All apparatus can 10-2 - When ready".

What really gets me are the ambulance calls next to quarters where the ambulance crew feels it's necessary to call 10-17, unkey the mike and immediately rekey and say 10-19. Or worse say "##B1 is 10-17 10-19... In those cases just tell us you're 10-19!

Oh, and the thing that really, really gets me is "Ambulance ##B1 is out of service by radio"... What the $#!@ is that!

[firemn23 8]

I would have thought you repeat the nature and location for yourself incase you heard it wrong. Unlike the dispatchers at 3am we are waking up from sleeping and want to make sure we are going to the right place. Was that hillside pl ave st. Is the street cut in two by a highway and the number is extremely important. I like repeating the address and will continue to do it.

The one thing i do that i am sure 60 hates is saying "AnyTown Engine XX is 10-17 NYS MM 5.5" But we rarely call 60 so i want to make sure they know we exist, even though they just made the call to our PD

[Firemn2742A 14]

The one thing i do that i am sure 60 hates is saying "AnyTown Engine XX is 10-17 NYS MM 5.5" But we rarely call 60 so i want to make sure they know we exist, even though they just made the call to our PD

I agree , this started when the NY Thruway Authority needed documentation and proof of what Equipt and Resoures entered the Thruway so the Depts could be paid back for speedy dry ect...

Sometimes for DES it helps them with the incident report to contact a unit for an update.

[Guest DADAY]

I personally love to hear myself talk. I think x635, nytruckie, plectron, and all the rest do too!!

[Remember585 815]

Too many of you are discussing the archaic ten codes that only plague our services!!!

Use clear-text dammit!

Things I hate. (First, a disclaimer. All of my comments that are listed above and below this statement are my personal opinions, and do not reflect any agencies I am affiliated with, work for or just plain hate. With that said...)

"COTTON 95B1 is responding." There's only ONE 95B1 in Westchester County. Just say "95B1."

"Car 3390 to 60 Control, be advised I am in service and responding." If you're "responding," you are in service. And, by keying up that mike and telling Dispatch your message, they are ADVISED!

"KFP 437 Cotton Police to all members of the Cotton Fire Department, KFP 437 Cotton Police to all members of the Cotton Fire Department....blah, blah, blah." You need only to say the damn call sign ONCE! Stop wasting our time - I hate that $hit!!!

"Engine 9999 to Dispatch, we are 10-40." Guess what?! Nobody really cares if you are back in station. If it is one of those "shared rig" deals, use the phone. I believe ALS can agree on this one. (When he remembers to call).

Announcements in the middle of a storm or other busy air-time. I, for one, think all radio announcements are old-school. With E-mail, snail mail, phones, blackberries, bat-signals, etc. we can get the word out about that "truck wash" some other way then the radio.

Radio transmissions that are not thought out before keying up that mic. ARRRGGHHHHHH!!!!!

Parade activity on the radio - especially 46.26. I won't say who is guilty of this ( :-k ) but I was at a parade this past week(end?) and Chiefs were talking all over 46.26 when I KNOW FOR FACT that they (we?) have our own channels?! COME ON GUYS!!!

Until next time, keep 'em simple, keep 'em short, and for the love of spaghetti, Keep 'em limited to only important communications.

[emt301 4]

"

They know they want me to return to quarters but they have no idea as to my in service status. Even if they are looking directly at me and my apparatus. A good IC will leave that up to the apparatus officer and tell the dispatcher that "All apparatus can 10-2 - When ready". "

With all due respect, I have to disagree with this one. As a dispatcher and firefighter, I've dealt with enough calls to know that in most instances even if a particular unit is actually "still in the process of picking up" at the end of a call, and not technically 10-8....that if a structure fire call or mva with extrication call comes in, the unit will certainly be responding, even if it's just with a couple of minutes additional delay. In other words, the unit will be/is 10-8 if it really needs to be. Having an IC call all units clear is good use of ICS, and saves valuable radio airtime, as opposed to each & every unit calling 10-8.

[tbendick 27]

Time for MDT's..... Get all this extra traffic off the area and on a computer....

[EJS1810 7]

Talk about redundency. I believe this is a redundent thread.

[Guest]

Ooooooo witty remark!!! :roll:

Just jokes!

[x242Steve 1]

Our responding apparatus are encouraged to repeat the address that they are responding too, and I think that this is essential.

Many volunteers are busy doing various things throughout the day and may miss the initial tone-out. I am a contractor, and if the table saw is running when my pager goes off, and then I shut the saw off and hear "Ladder 25 is 10-17", I tend to say to myself "10-17 to where?

Lets be reasonable folks, I want you to do a quick exercise right now. Get a stopwatch, and time yourself saying the following phrases...

1) Tower Ladder X is Responding.

2) Tower Ladder X is responding to 123 Main Street.

I think I have beaten this horse enough for now...

[emt301 4]

I agree...as a dispatcher I've had units transmit back the incorrect address to me upon their becoming 10-17...I was VERY glad that they read it back, so I could correct them and get them going to the right location.

This being the case, I'm always glad when someone verifies the address so I know that we're all on the same page and help is headed to where it is needed.

[roeems87 0]

On a different note, one other thing frustrates the hell out of me with taking up airtime for no reason whatsoever. There is a certain fire department, which might happen to the be the one I know best (though I'm EMS, may be the same district, but who knows :wink: ), they always get their times and run numbers over the air after every call. From what I understand, they are the only fire department left in Westchester that 60 allows to do this. EMS being on the same frequency, I cannot tell you how often frustrated we get when we can't get a word in edge-wise on the radio because the FD captain is getting his run number (another one tallied by EMS, without it they would have like 10--a little joke) and times and taking up all the time. There was one instance that came to mind when we were running 3 different EMS incidents and a 4th was pending (possible mutual aid or someone was going to do a turnaround), but we couldn't communicate between ambulances and the medic car (and our supervisors) because the FD captain was copying times and run numbers OVER THE AIR ON THE SAME FREQUENCY for FOUR different calls. Not for anything, but USE A LANDLINE when you are taking up that much air time, what's the big deal with using the phone? It's what we have to do. If we ever said, "57-B1 to 60, we're 10-8, ready to copy..." (which we've tried), we get "57-B1, 10-1 please." Just to settle the story I just told, we ended up using the police dept. radio (a VHF frequency other than our own UHF operations shared with FD) to talk to eachother while the FD was getting their times.

Another side note...there is no need to give an EMS disposition as a fire captain. There is nothing more frustrating for us (or for the dispatcher I would imagine) as "2--2 (numbers out for the purpose of ambiguity, though it's not hard to figure out at this point who I am talking about) to 60, fire units are going 10-8, patient is packaged and in the care of EVAC, being transported by EVAC 57-B1 ALS to Lawrence Hospital. I'm ready to copy." You think I make that up... that's a real one from last week. One may think it would be helpful to have one transmission and then the bus doesn't have to say anything, but often times, we are still performing ALS in the bus and not leaving the scene yet, and even more often the fire captain is wrong in what they say to control. They assume sometimes and they never get the straight facts before they get radio-happy. Leave the EMS dispositions to EMS. We don't give instructions during fires, and we sure as hell don't cover your airspace when you are running fire calls.

Rant over. Agree? Disagree? Anyone who monitors our frequencies hear this stuff besides the obvious frustrations of those on scene?

[Guest WCDES636]

Interesting rant:

As far as your FD goes, they are the only ones in Westchester getting thier times over the air. The original reason was they were the only one on the frequency. At that point I summize that there was no tie up of the frequency.

As for you getting your numbers and times: It's been done by people in your VAC. It's not done all the time but I can tell you it has been done.

As for the Fire Captain telling 60 control your enroute to Lawrence....... we only mark the time your unit tells us they are enroute to a hospital.

The only reason that the FD still gets times over the air is that it has always been done that way and to date no other units on the same frequency have complained.

Hope this helps your rant.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Very good thread/topic & responses! I think we can all agree that we get agrivated as hell at certain radio transmissions. x635 & Remember585, great posts, after all you guys know the best lol.

This was stated, but truly pisses me off; Units sign on and repeat EVERYTHING that 60-Control has just stated, such as: "Car 9999 to 60-Control, i'm responding to number 123 Main Street, automatic alarm." Well no s**t captain obvious, i would hope that 60 knows where you're going & what for, after all it is their job and they just stated the same info!!! Only exception IMO; multiple calls in the district. There is one dept. in particular that really irks me. Within the last year it has gotten worse! One chief used to repeat everything when he signed on, now its spread to other officers & even apparatus ](*,) !!! In talking with a member of that dept., i was told that this procedure was put into their SOG's/SOP's! When i asked why, i was told; "so that there is no confusion on the location of the call." Well, we have Minitor Pagers, radios (portable & mobile) & even cell phones with I-Page! If you sign on that you're responding, i'd hope you know where the hell you're going & what for! Theres no excuse to not know with all of the alerting resourses we have now!

One last thing that i hate, before i end my post lol. I can not stand when an IC states: "Car 1234 to 60-Control, all Blah units will be 10-8." Then you hear each piece of apparatus & every Chief saying the same thing, absolutely unneccesary & a waste of air time!

Lets stay smart out there ladies & gents! Think before you speak & use you're heads, for the sake of everyone else!

[EJS1810 7]

Now our redundency is getting redundent ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

[firemn23 8]

I must say I totaly disagree with everyone bashing redundancy. It is the only way for someone to confirm that you heard exactly what they said. I think saying Car 9999 10-17 to 123 main st is fine (he could leave out the automatic alarm) but he is telling the dispatchers that he heard exactly what they said, especially since 60 has alot of calls at the same time the 1 second to say the address is not a big deal. When I was an MPO i did it every time i responded. By the way didnt we have a thread on why dont first arriving units dont do a size up. That takes up more airtime, but is still benefiital.

My biggest complaint about the radios is that people dont use their car or engine number correctly. Engine 995 is not 95 car 2991 is not 91.

[Remember585 815]

There's nothing wrong with verifying your run. I just don't care for the things I mentioned earlier. I agree with Mike, repeating the whole damn thing for each unit that responds is absurd. If you really aren't sure, pick up a phone and call dispatch.

In our FD we used to always landline the CPD to verify the run. But now that we have better pagers and a better tower (most of the time) we know where we're going before we respond the rig.

[rsm5674 0]

While I agree with keeping transmissions concise, however the issue regarding redundancy is important to discuss. In order to ensure that apparatus is responding to the correct location, that specific orders from a Chief or officer have been heard and understood by the recieving unit, it is a necissity to have these messages repeated. If you listen, the county dispatchers repeat back(almost) every message the receive to ensure they got it correct. The messages do not need to be long and involved but are necessary.