Is Westchester ready for a Terrorist Attack?

[ems-buff 81]

From the news12 westchester newsroom :

09/21/05) VALHALLA - County Executive candidate Rob Astorino ® called a meeting with police chiefs and Public Safety Commissioner Thomas Belfiore on Wednesday after someone from his campaign managed to breach security at the Kensico Dam area while videotaping the attempt.

Now my question to you guys is do you think that Westchester county can handle a event like the dam being use as a terrorists attack. I mean if a reporter can just walk in to a High Secruity Area. What's to said that a terrorist can't. Any and all comments or welcome.

[Guest x901]

anything big, and as of today, we are SCREWED!

[Guest]

Agree with 901, we would probably all be doing crowd and traffic control.........

[ajsbear 11]

Crowd and traffic if FEMA runs the emergancy.

[Guest]

I Think we wouldnt have a chance to find out, Paid people would be in before we even drove to the scene.

[ems-buff 81]

Isn’t the dam in Valhalla’s jurisdiction . With that said isn’t Valhalla a volunteer fire department so wouldn’t they be the first responding units in there. So paid wouldn't be there first volunteer would be.

[Guest]

This thread is not intended as a discussion/venting of paid vs. volunteer response protocol !

I'll report the next comment which incites vol.vs. career firefighters.

[cas2383 22]

As with any disaster, until it happens we dont know if well be prepared to handle it. The more these reports come out about who trained with who doing what, making people feel safer, I believe we will never know if we are prepared until it actually happens. No matter how hard we train, come up with plans and hope the worst doesnt come, we dont know if we are prepared or are not. What people should focus on is adaptability to over come problems not "specific what if this happend problems."

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

I wasnt putting Paid against Volunteers I am a Volunteer. I was talking about FEMA and National Gaurds...To much reading between the lines on here.

[ja3kfd 34]

If any of the Dams are hit we would all be in trouble how many of us have seen the flood plain for not only the dams in your districts but the ones above you that would wipe you out??

Katonah and Bedford Hills would be under water as well as fire Houses Hurricane Floyd was nothing.

[GFD70 4]

My understanding is that in the event of a WMD incident the 6 squads would be called to handle the incident itself with the MDU trailers deconing the public as they leave the "hot zone". As far as preparedness goes there has been alot of training thanks to governemnt funding between the 10 departments that make up the six squads (New Rochelle, Mt. Vernon, Yonkers, White Plains, Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale, Scarsdale & Eastchester)

[Guest alsfirefighter]

It is this simple...Chief Billy Goldfeder sums it up when he says this....

"IF you can't handle a structure fire or any other type of everyday incident, then you shouldn't even worry about trying to be prepared for a WMD incident."

Fact is many departments in Westchester cannot and do not handle everyday incidents efficiently or properly. We will never get ahead of the game on prepardness because of the way the county mentality on a department level is and has been for decades. Until the county has more teeth to get departments in the game and do what needs to be done its futile.

I certainly hope the gentleman who breached security is charged with criminal trespass regardless of what his intentions were. It points out a weakness but he still did so under violation of the law.

[Guest VFD39]

The dam belongs to both Valhalla, and North White Plains. There is plan in effect for a "event" involving a breech of said structure.The thought of several hundered billion gallons of water heading to white plains and points south is scary to say the least. As for a chemical attck on the dam, the quanity of said chemical is great and delivery is going to have to be by large aircraft or several tanker trucks. Hopefully noticed before delivery happens or can be completed. DEP has 24 hr survalliance on top of the dam, with guard shacks and roadblocks on both ends-the dam is also in the middle of a major renovation project which is projected to take 2 years or more to finish. Yes I saw the tape shown on NEWS 12, and I will be the first to agree that security is not what it should be. They stopped u from ging over the top,making response times for VVAC into NWP longer and traffic in the middle of Valhalla is horrible to say the least. But that is another story

[4truck48 25]

Sure we can handle it. As long it's on a Saturday morning at 10 AM, when everyones around. Other then that I'm not so sure.

[calhobs 110]

I think if a WMD attack here espically at the dam FDNY would take over and Fire Departments North of the Dam will be involed. Just think of the Dam actually comng down there would be nothing left south of it even parts of the bronx would be under water. But other then the dam FDNY would be a very big part here. Just thenk of the training most of us volenters have how many of use are trained for soemthing like that such as a WMD attack in white plans, and think aobut it the numbers are just not there in the paid departments here in westchester. The man power would not be able to handle it. I feel this county would be up the creek if a major WMD attack happend here.

[Stench60 29]

Whew, were to begin? Let me preface my comments with the fact that no terrorist or terrorist organisation would waste any time or effort attempting to bring down or damage the Kensico Dam. The amount of explosives it would require would be simply unmanageable and not worth the effort. Anyone who is actually interested in the subject should read about the RAFs' Dambusters and the mission to destroy the Ruhr Valley Dams during WWII.

As to whether Westchester is "ready" to handle a terrotist attack, it all depends on what happens. We are much more likely to see incidents like the London and Madrid bombings then we are to seeing someone flying a plane into Indian Point( another ludcrious suggestion). The work of the fire service at a London type incident would be minimal while the Police/EMS sector would handle the overwhelming majority of the incident. Admittedly, if the target was a fuel tanker etc. we would have a much larger role to play but that is only if "fire or Chemical" were a large part of the equation, and a role we are already prepared to carry out through our regular training and duties.

We endanger ourselves by trying to prepare for every single eventuallity instead of the most likely incidents. Or as a wise old Gunny once told me, you try and prepare for everything and you'll end up being ready for nothing.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Stench we must have had the same gunny, lol.

Some have hinted at what I've said. Be prepared for what you need to deal with on a everyday basis and you will be in part well prepared for anything else. WMD's come down to recognition and if you can do hazmat you can handle a WMD which is a hazmat with atttitude. Always remember the RAIN method for first response to a potential terrorist incident be whatever it may be. Recognize, Avoid, Identify and Notify.

Also, just to clarify one point, FEMA doesn't run anything, they are a emergency management agency to assist with operations. The local department is responsible to "run" a incident. Depending on what type of incident it is depends on who is the overall in charge, which by NY state law comes down to a city manager, mayor, supervisor, etc. overall. FEMA isn't the end all. And if directing traffic or assisting in moving people is what they need to coordinate through those running the show then that is what you do.

[Guest]

Well said als !!

[Guest WCDES636]

Stench,

Actually the Kensico Dam is a highly probable target. If you take out the City of New York water supply, you shut down the city!

1.) No water, no fire suppression

2.) No water, No power. Con Ed uses Steam to move turbines to produce electricity.

3.) No water, No heat. Most buildings in NYC are still heated with steam.

Just my thoughts!

[Guest]

I think that the county in well prepared for an attack.

[x635 4,066]

Personally, I don't feel any community is completly "prepared". What does that word even mean exactly?

I think when we say "OK, we're prepared, we're ready" is when we have problems. We should always be improving equipment, training, and looking at different angles and possibilities. We should always be able to handle ANYTHING that comes our way, but should never be complacent about it.

Another angle, mentioned by another member earlier in this thread, is that we need to learn to work together at everyday bread and butter type situations before we can succesfully work together at an incident of the described magnitude. The radio system alone in this county is a disaster in itself.....46.26 could not handle such a large scale event, and radio/telephone/communications centerS (notice the plural) interoperability....fugghedaboutit!

On another note, who knows what methods this reporter may have used to gain access to the dam. "Hooks", etc.

Edited September 25, 2005 by x635

[Guest]

I think this discussion raises another issue. Even if WC never suffers a terrorist or natural catastrophe, NYC will continue to be very high on the "probability" list. Since any attempt to evacuate NYC would send 1,000s of their residents to WC and Northern counties, I wonder if anyone has thought of a contingency plan to house and feed these potential evacuees......

Following article touches on this and other related issues :

September 25, 2005

Imagine 20 Years of This

By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

There was a time when the cloud as an icon of destruction was shaped like a mushroom.

And a time when the cloud as a portent of fleeing populations gave off the buzz of locusts.

And a time when the cloud that symbolized unexpected death was the ashen plume shooting out of twin towers pancaking down.

Now the cloud we track across our television screens as a harbinger of all those things is touched with the ancient and divine: a vast, swirling eye. An unblinking thing that could have floated off an Egyptian cartouche, a Huichol ornament or the back of a dollar bill.

In a sense, we are back to a more innocent age. The dark eyes whirling ever closer are "natural" disasters, though they pack the force of thousands of Hiroshimas.

And if science is correct, we will be repeatedly reminded what "a force of nature" implies. Meteorologists argue that we have begun a new era of Atlantic storms pumped up by hot gulf waters, a cycle that oscillates in decades. The devastating hurricanes of the 1960's like Betsy and Camille were followed by a lull from 1970 to 1995 as cooler waters stifled the wrath of adolescent tropical storms. Now the streams of warm water that encourage rapid evaporation and spiraling winds are back.

If these are just the first dark puffs of a new kind of summer weather that will prevail for the next 20 years, can we possibly be ready for what is to follow?

Last year, four horsemen galloped over Florida in quick succession: Charley, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne. Already this season, the Gulf of Mexico has seen one major hurricane, Rita, sweep in on the veil of another, Katrina.

As a consequence, parts of New Orleans and stretches of the Mississippi coast are nearly uninhabited, and likely to stay that way for months. In Texas, Houston, Galveston and Port Arthur have emptied, at least temporarily. The populations of coastal cities have been scattered in a great arc, some trapped on highways a few miles inland, some in shelters as far away as Massachusetts and California.

The absurdity is that a dangerous squall can now be tracked almost from its birth off the coast of Africa, but its victims still cannot get out of its way. Despite our amazing ability to foretell the meteorological future, greed and sloth may have overpowered most sane efforts to plan for it.

Highways have clotted as families flee, and some of those without cars end up with nowhere to go but their rooftops. Evacuation plans for hospitals and nursing homes have been washed away by worst-case scenarios that no one envisioned - buildings marooned by deep water and beset by gunfire.

Encouraged by federal flood insurance, islands whose very existence is ephemeral have been lined with vacation homes. Low-lying urban neighborhoods with their asphalt toes resting in swamps have been built below levees too fragile to hold. Hurricane-resistant houses have been designed, but their squat forms have proven unpopular with customers craving ocean vistas.

Marshes that once absorbed storms have been allowed to die off and sink, leaving stretches of open water that can be flung shoreward by storm surges. Pipelines designed to flex have snapped - Katrina's damage may include 10 major spills.

Even the economy, unable to flee, has become a victim. The nation's refineries have been concentrated in the threatened hurricane belt. Gas-guzzlers and rising prices are beating into the heads of drivers the nature of the laws of supply and demand. Insurance companies have been rocked, struggling airlines have gasped at their jet fuel bills. The damage so far already could reach $200 billion.

Here is a look at six crucial questions we face:

THE COAST

As coastal communities confront a newly intense storm cycle, they turn to remedies they have used for years to combat beach loss they have already been experiencing because of rising sea levels. Unfortunately, each has serious drawbacks.

They can armor their beaches with seawalls, breakwaters or other hard structures. Usually, though, drawing a rock or concrete line on a dynamic sandy coast results in loss of the very resource the work is meant to protect, the beach.

Communities can replace sand lost to erosion or storm waves. But it can be hard to find good sources of replacement sand; the projects are unsightly, mining and applying the sand brings other environmental problems, and the projects often do not last long, which means the process can be extremely expensive.

As a result, some communities have reconciled themselves to the idea that houses and other buildings will occasionally be lost to the surf. Others are limiting development by establishing setback lines, usually based on natural features like dune lines or the high water mark. But it can be difficult for local officials to stick to these rules, in the face of property owners who plead to protect their homes or who threaten to sue if development limits thwart their plans to live on the coast. —CORNELIA DEAN

ECONOMY

The effect that any single hurricane has on the broad United States economy is minor. Even Katrina, which sent gas prices soaring, has done little to alter the national economy's course. Outside the Gulf Coast, business and households have continued spending money at roughly the same rate as they were before.

But if major storms hit the Atlantic and gulf coasts with some frequency, the economic equation changes. Suddenly, an infrastructure that was built with one reality in mind is facing a different one. Uncertainty will increase; efficiency will suffer. "We're going to have to make some difficult choices," said Ross C. DeVol, director of regional economics at the Milken Institute. "You can't build everything to withstand a category-five hurricane."

Katrina alone caused estimated damages of $200 billion, and some conservative House Republicans have suggested reducing government spending by $500 billion over 10 years to pay for that one storm's overall costs. A series of large storms would increase the budget deficit and start a new debate over whether to raise taxes, cut programs, or both.

Whatever the outcome of that debate, the result would almost certainly steal resources that might be invested in infrastructure improvements around the country, or in exploring new technologies. That could cut productivity growth and slow the rise of living standards. —DAVID LEONHARDT

OIL

Consider: America's energy industry - both its oil supplies and refineries - is concentrated along the Gulf of Mexico. And it takes about 10 years to construct a refinery.

That means gas prices will almost always spike each time a hurricane heads for the gulf coast.

Already the gulf accounts for a third of America's oil and gas supplies, and that share is expected to grow. Few states have been willing to approve more oil drilling. Coastal states like Florida and California fear the oil industry would scare away tourism. And environmental opposition has so far stymied efforts to drill in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and the Rocky Mountains.

The concentration in refining capacity is even more marked. There are 50 refineries in coastal states, and the refining capacity of Texas, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi is almost equal to that of the rest of the country. No new refineries have been built for nearly 30 years. Only one is being built, in Arizona, and it won't come on line for a decade. To meet demand, refiners have instead expanded their existing plants, particularly along the gulf coast.

Curbing consumption and importing more oil would help. But for Lawrence J. Goldstein, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, the recent hurricanes make the industry's case for expanding beyond the gulf. "Our facilities have been forced into a natural disaster corridor," he said. —JAD MOUAWAD

FEMA

Bill Brown, a chief of one of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's search and rescue teams, had just come home to Indianapolis following Hurricanes Katrina and Ophelia, when the call came: Hurricane Rita was bearing down on Texas. "Not again," he recalls thinking.

There has never been a summer like this for him or FEMA. And this could be just the beginning of decades of hurricane frenzy. That cannot be comforting to FEMA, whose much criticized response to Katrina has been attributed not only to poor leadership and insufficient planning, but also the agency's limited capacity to field a relief effort across the 90,000-square-mile region damaged by the storm.

FEMA's critics say it must develop the expertise to deliver assistance to state and local governments in an emergency, before they have been able to assess their own needs. The agency will have to focus on working closely with National Guard troops trained and equipped to deal with the chaotic aftermath of hurricanes. Critically, the agency needs people at the top experienced in disaster management, not political appointees.

Finally, FEMA will need a lot more money, said Butch Kinerney, an agency spokesman, if it is to have the muscle and personnel to respond effectively to one major hurricane after another. "There is no question these storms are taxing the system," he said. —ERIC LIPTON

EVACUATION

Images of thousands of poor people stranded at the Superdome in New Orleans, and of miles of traffic jams on the highways out of Houston, have highlighted the challenge of evacuating densely populated areas on short notice.

Existing models underestimate the difficulty of evacuations, said Jerome M. Hauer, New York City's director of emergency management from 1996 to 2000. "I would suggest to any mayor or governor now," he said, "that we need to leave more time in particular for evacuating hospitals and nursing homes. At the other end, we have to look at how to deal with the massive sheltering demands."

One problem is that no one has planned for huge evacuations, said Mary C. Comerio, an architecture professor at the University of California, Berkeley. "There really are not plans in place to empty a region of half a million people, much less several million people," she said.

Then there is the problem of persuading people to leave, said Dennis S. Mileti, a sociologist at the University of Colorado at Boulder. The poor and minorities often distrust government officials, he said, but may listen to local representatives of the American Red Cross. And evacuation warnings need to be everywhere - on local and national media outlets. "You need to repeat the information many, many, many, many times," he said. —SEWELL CHAN

HOUSING

It is possible to build a hurricane-proof house. But perhaps the best of the lot - a dome-shaped creation made with tons of poured concrete and anchored with steel pilings - looks like something from a bad sci-fi movie.

They are a hard sell, said David B. South, an engineer who designed the Dome Home 30 years ago and now teaches people to build them from his Monolithic Dome Institute in Italy, Tex.

But experts say homes don't have to look odd to survive a hurricane. "Any house can be fortified," said Wendy Rose, of the Institute for Business and Home Safety, an organization sponsored by the insurance industry, based in Tampa, Fla.

Engineers say the $23 billion in losses from four hurricanes in Florida last year would have been greater had the state not adopted some of the strictest building codes in the country, ones far more stringent than those in the other Gulf Coast states. But most of Florida's homes were built under lower standards and have yet to be updated.

Insurers offer discounts to those who modify their homes. "We ask people to take one step at a time," said Harvey G. Ryland, chief executive of the home safety institute. "Frequently, one of the single most important things you can do is buy a reinforced garage door. A blown-in garage door allows in a large volume of wind that can take a roof off." —JOSEPH B. TREASTER

Source: NYTimes

[Guest alsfirefighter]

well prepared? what a joke, partly prepared is a joke.

The county is not ready to say the least for actual operations and specifically the political fallout that will follow between city and county level. Let's get something clear also, I'm not digging anyone, there are those who are trying etremely hard to get things where it needs to be, but when we can't coordinate things like: 911, dispatching, EMS, mutual aid, training, you name it...how can we be "well prepared?"

[JohnnyOV 2]

two words N O. we arent now, nor we ever will be because no one can see eye to eye and agree to make plan that is uniform. Also theres a billion different ways we could be "attacked" naturally or man-made. Its just not possible to be fully prepared.

[Guest]

could you imagine the titlewave and distruction from the valhalla dam getting hit? that area floods at a good rain storm, departments' north of there probably won't be able to get through. new orleans would look like nothing! the force behind that dam breaking would be tremendous. it would be a tremendous hit to new york once again. trees uprooted, roads washed out, house and stores washed away, cars, trains and buses floating all over the place. devastation. this is a problem that we are watching happen. it's sad that terrorist get their rocks of at distruction. hopefully we can work towards a sollution.

[turk182 37]

Sure we can handle it. As long it's on a Saturday morning at 10 AM, when everyones around. Other then that I'm not so sure.

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Sunday around 11:30 would be better for me