JFLYNN

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

Chris, you make some excellent points here. I have nothing to do with water ops in Yonkers but from where I sit we are as guilty as anyone...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now, and we wouldn't even have to pull over every poor slob with a jet ski to justify our existence...I was working the day the cessna went down off the Yonkers shore in November or whenever that was and it really sucked watching those two guys doing the backstroke in the middle of the river through binoculars until NYPD and the Coast Guard showed up and saved the day.
In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

Chris, you make some excellent points here. I have nothing to do with water ops in Yonkers but from where I sit we are as guilty as anyone...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now, and we wouldn't even have to pull over every poor slob with a jet ski to justify our existence...I was working the day the cessna went down off the Yonkers shore in November or whenever that was and it really sucked watching those two guys doing the backstroke in the middle of the river through binoculars until NYPD and the Coast Guard showed up and saved the day.
In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

Chris, you make some excellent points here. I have nothing to do with water ops in Yonkers but from where I sit we are as guilty as anyone...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now, and we wouldn't even have to pull over every poor slob with a jet ski to justify our existence...I was working the day the cessna went down off the Yonkers shore in November or whenever that was and it really sucked watching those two guys doing the backstroke in the middle of the river through binoculars until NYPD and the Coast Guard showed up and saved the day.
In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

This comes across more as an opinion to me than an actual question. And frankly, I would not normally dignify comments and opinions coming from an 18-20 year old (whether career or volunteer) with a response. It is basically impossible in my opinion for you to have adequate expertise in this area for anyone to take your opinions seriously. I do not mean this as an insult- it just is what it is...you have not had enough years as an adult on this planet to have accumulated adequate
e or experience on this subject to engage in debate. If you were a career Firefighter it would already have been explained to you in no uncertain terms to keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut (or in this case keep your fingers off the keyboard) until you have some time on the job. This is for your own good most of all...how can you ever learn if you can't humble yourself to just be quiet and listen for a while?
That being said, since you raised the point and others out there may be wondering and it gives me another opportunity to get the message out (thanks for that, BTW)...the history of the existing career team is clear...I cannot speak for the various Fire Commissioners / Chiefs of Department of the various teams which make up the career task force but there is an established history of the Southern Westchester Career Depts. responding when requested to Northern Westchester. I have no doubt that if there were an incident anywhere in Westchester requiring the response of USAR assets, and if the Southern Westchester Career Task Force was requested, that they would arrive in force and be operational long before anything even approaching an adequate response from this other "team" showed up. The shane is that we would not be called immediately most likely...there would very likely be a delay while the other team is called and responds with a completely inadequate number of trained and capable personnel.
But, you have apparently confused my posts on two different threads young man. I do not believe the Westchester Tech Rescue "team" is a duplication of resources...I believe they are an illusion and are not actually a viable resource at all. Further, many years ago, as I have stated previously, the Southern West Spec. Ops. Task Force had offered to have a squad or squads established in Northern Westchester which would include volunteers, however this effort was killed politically by the volunteers because they wanted their "own" team....
Thanks for throwing me the softball. I'm sure you are a great guy and have wonderful intentions but I would strongly advise you to stick witht the basics for a while...concentrate on hoses and ladders and all that stuff...

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

As I stated in a previous thread, I had sent an email from my official Yonkers email account to the DES individual who is listed on their website as being the person, or one of the persons "in charge" of this "team". I had respectfully asked these same questions to him, explaining that as a Deputy Chief on the Yonkers Fire Department (and a former long time Captain of our Rescue Company as well as former NYS adjunct instructor teaching technical rescue), I felt that I should be aware of the capabilities (or lack thereof) of this team in the event that we might be working together at a large scale emergency. I received no response. I felt no need to pursue it further because in my opinion based on what I have seen and heard, the County Team is not a viable asset and should nort be taken seriously. I did however provide them the opportunity to begin a professional discourse and perhaps prove to me that my impression is incorrect.
The only times I have posted on this website regarding the County Team is to express my opinion after a previous poster has touted the capabilities of this "team". I have never criticized a particular individual on this "team", nor did I get involved in criticizing any particular incidents, such as the one in Hastings. The simple fact is that by any reasonable measure, the Westchester Technical Rescue Team, or whatever they are calling themselves, is not viable as a technical rescue asset and to purport otherwise is a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and may in fact cause loss of life in the future.

As I stated in a previous thread, I had sent an email from my official Yonkers email account to the DES individual who is listed on their website as being the person, or one of the persons "in charge" of this "team". I had respectfully asked these same questions to him, explaining that as a Deputy Chief on the Yonkers Fire Department (and a former long time Captain of our Rescue Company as well as former NYS adjunct instructor teaching technical rescue), I felt that I should be aware of the capabilities (or lack thereof) of this team in the event that we might be working together at a large scale emergency. I received no response. I felt no need to pursue it further because in my opinion based on what I have seen and heard, the County Team is not a viable asset and should nort be taken seriously. I did however provide them the opportunity to begin a professional discourse and perhaps prove to me that my impression is incorrect.
The only times I have posted on this website regarding the County Team is to express my opinion after a previous poster has touted the capabilities of this "team". I have never criticized a particular individual on this "team", nor did I get involved in criticizing any particular incidents, such as the one in Hastings. The simple fact is that by any reasonable measure, the Westchester Technical Rescue Team, or whatever they are calling themselves, is not viable as a technical rescue asset and to purport otherwise is a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and may in fact cause loss of life in the future.

As I stated in a previous thread, I had sent an email from my official Yonkers email account to the DES individual who is listed on their website as being the person, or one of the persons "in charge" of this "team". I had respectfully asked these same questions to him, explaining that as a Deputy Chief on the Yonkers Fire Department (and a former long time Captain of our Rescue Company as well as former NYS adjunct instructor teaching technical rescue), I felt that I should be aware of the capabilities (or lack thereof) of this team in the event that we might be working together at a large scale emergency. I received no response. I felt no need to pursue it further because in my opinion based on what I have seen and heard, the County Team is not a viable asset and should nort be taken seriously. I did however provide them the opportunity to begin a professional discourse and perhaps prove to me that my impression is incorrect.
The only times I have posted on this website regarding the County Team is to express my opinion after a previous poster has touted the capabilities of this "team". I have never criticized a particular individual on this "team", nor did I get involved in criticizing any particular incidents, such as the one in Hastings. The simple fact is that by any reasonable measure, the Westchester Technical Rescue Team, or whatever they are calling themselves, is not viable as a technical rescue asset and to purport otherwise is a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and may in fact cause loss of life in the future.

OK, I'll correct you because I do believe you are wrong. The County "team" is not consolidation. It is an illusion. They can not do what they claim to be able to do, yet they spend valuable resources on equipment, take volunteers out of their communities most of which can not provide adequate basic fire protection, and get in the way politically of others in Westchester (as mentioned above by billfitz) who have established credible technical resources.

What does "operational" mean??? Are they able to respond to technical incidents in a certain amount of time with a certain number of trained personnel? What are the training standards for this team? How often do they train? Are there any medical qualifications? How many members are on the team??

Hey Thomas, I think it's great that you are a fan of keeping things clean and respectful and not bashing your brothers and sisters...me too! I haven't really noticed that happening on this forum other than a few posts which did slip through and then were quickly deleted by our very professional moderators.
I'm curious, would you be willing to share with us which specific posts you feel have not been "clean and respectful" and / or have been "bashing our brothers and sisters"...maybe the rest of us are missing something here? Thanks!

Correction to above, maybe?? And I may really be confusing the issue here, so please will some savvy Engine dude clarify? Anyway, I seem to remember that NYC CORP thread (what Yonkers uses) has 11 threads per inch on 2 1/2 and FDNY thread has 8 threads per inch and National Standard has 7 1/2 threads per inch, so maybe it is the National Standard thread that can be jammed on the FDNY hydrant and it will maybe work???

Sorry Barry, I called you Bob again...I think I had one too many wines with dinner tonight...

I've been watching this topic but I don't have the energy to post on it really...the whole thing brings back too many bad memories for me. I will say that I agree with most of the posts made here, surprisingly...I will reserve the right to jump in later if I feel the need to rebut any misinformation but happily, I haven't seen any really nonsensical posts on this topic yet.
I do want to reply to your post though. Bob...Engine work is definitely not my forte, however, I believe there is a difference between "NYC CORP" thread and "NYC" thread....Yonkers has, I believe "NYC CORP" thread, which I believe, is close to, but not exactly, "NYC" (FDNY) thread...if you jam it on, it usually will make up but no guarantees...we do have adaptors and we've had them forever but I have no idea about other Westchester departments. Is this the FDNY threads which you refer to 40% of Westchester having because I believe there is actually a slight difference? Of course, the other thread we have not mentioned is National Standard which most of Westchester has so would need adaptors for NYC, Yonkers, and many other Westchester departments that are not on National Standard.
Also, FDNY hydrants open and close "backwards" from ours...ours open counterclockwise, FDNY opens clockwise
The high security hydrant wrench you speak of...is that the magna lock?? Or a speaker from a boom box???
Correct me if I am wrong on any of the above...until I became a Chief, I could really care less about this hose and water stuff and I didn't pay much attention for many years, but suddenly it became a lot more important...

I didn't see anyone lining up to bash the original poster, much less 10. If I'm wrong please correct me with some specific factual information.
The original poster claimed that there are people who are allowed to "stir the pot in multiple threads", "bash", and to be "unprofessional and counterproductive", yet he has given no specifics. Where is the evidence of this???
Yet, no one has bashed him. Several members have made great, eloquent, FACT BASED responses which were
respectful and did not in any way make a personal attack. His post was rebutted. He was not attacked personally. Why can't some of you see this? I know most of you do see this of course which is why I, and others, will continue to speak out on here or elsewhere as we see fit in order to, in my case, attempt to improve fire and EMS in this area of the country. (I'll leave law enforcement to the professionals in that area)
It really is hard sometimes to believe that the members on this forum are all (or mostly all) in emergency services what with all thin skin.
I really do believe the acronym QTIP is so applicable here...I often use it to remind myself to do the same...why not try it guys?

I didn't see anyone lining up to bash the original poster, much less 10. If I'm wrong please correct me with some specific factual information.
The original poster claimed that there are people who are allowed to "stir the pot in multiple threads", "bash", and to be "unprofessional and counterproductive", yet he has given no specifics. Where is the evidence of this???
Yet, no one has bashed him. Several members have made great, eloquent, FACT BASED responses which were
respectful and did not in any way make a personal attack. His post was rebutted. He was not attacked personally. Why can't some of you see this? I know most of you do see this of course which is why I, and others, will continue to speak out on here or elsewhere as we see fit in order to, in my case, attempt to improve fire and EMS in this area of the country. (I'll leave law enforcement to the professionals in that area)
It really is hard sometimes to believe that the members on this forum are all (or mostly all) in emergency services what with all thin skin.
I really do believe the acronym QTIP is so applicable here...I often use it to remind myself to do the same...why not try it guys?

I've been watching this topic but I don't have the energy to post on it really...the whole thing brings back too many bad memories for me. I will say that I agree with most of the posts made here, surprisingly...I will reserve the right to jump in later if I feel the need to rebut any misinformation but happily, I haven't seen any really nonsensical posts on this topic yet.
I do want to reply to your post though. Bob...Engine work is definitely not my forte, however, I believe there is a difference between "NYC CORP" thread and "NYC" thread....Yonkers has, I believe "NYC CORP" thread, which I believe, is close to, but not exactly, "NYC" (FDNY) thread...if you jam it on, it usually will make up but no guarantees...we do have adaptors and we've had them forever but I have no idea about other Westchester departments. Is this the FDNY threads which you refer to 40% of Westchester having because I believe there is actually a slight difference? Of course, the other thread we have not mentioned is National Standard which most of Westchester has so would need adaptors for NYC, Yonkers, and many other Westchester departments that are not on National Standard.
Also, FDNY hydrants open and close "backwards" from ours...ours open counterclockwise, FDNY opens clockwise
The high security hydrant wrench you speak of...is that the magna lock?? Or a speaker from a boom box???
Correct me if I am wrong on any of the above...until I became a Chief, I could really care less about this hose and water stuff and I didn't pay much attention for many years, but suddenly it became a lot more important...

The recent post about NIMS compliance which referred to the tragic LOD's in Manlius, NY, has spurred me to post this topic concerning one of the most cardinal rules of Firefighting which is often ignored with tragic consequences:
If You Can't See Where You Are About To Place Your Foot.......
CRAWL!!
Inside a fire building, on the roof, even in the street, crawl when you can't see your feet, regardless of the heat conditions. If you are crawling, you will move more quickly and safely because you won't have to worry about stepping into a hole or shaft, or tripping over unseen obstacles. Many Firefighters are seriously injured and killed every year because of trips or falls that would not have happened if they were crawling instead of walking.
P.S. What you are looking for (fire victims) are more easily found (bumped into) when crawling, and what is trying to kill you (heat, smoke, flashover) is more easily avoided when crawling.
P.S.S. Don't forget to continually monitor conditions at the ceiling for signs of flashover.
* Of course, the above information will not receive nearly as much attention as posts on the latest parade or new shiny apparatus, but hopefully it will make a positive difference for some of you. Qtip...

Some excellent points have been made in this thread.
A few I would add:
1. When you can't see where you are placing your foot, CRAWL! (Possible exception to this would be the nozzle man and backup man who, while advancing the line, may do the duckwalk technique previoulsy discussed)
2. The idea of a 360 recon is nice, but is often impractical...aim to get a look at at least 3 sides of the building before entering...the time you take to get an immediate look at the 4th side of the building when it is not readily accessible could allow the fire to grow exponentially and could mean the difference between life and death for anyone still inside.
3. CRAWL!!
4. Incident Commander should assign members early on to get a look at the back of the building and communicate findings to everyone on the fireground (again, this may not be practical to assign to first due Engine or Ladder Companies).
5. CRAWL!!!
6. Develop a mindset of constantly sizing up the building from a six-sided perspective. This doesn't mean you need to actually see all six-sides (all four "sides" plus what is above you and what is below you), but rather that you are "situationally aware" of there being six sides the building and that all members on the fireground are continually assessing and communicating to one another fire and smoke location, structural integrity, etc.
The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.
7. CRAWL!!!!

Some excellent points have been made in this thread.
A few I would add:
1. When you can't see where you are placing your foot, CRAWL! (Possible exception to this would be the nozzle man and backup man who, while advancing the line, may do the duckwalk technique previoulsy discussed)
2. The idea of a 360 recon is nice, but is often impractical...aim to get a look at at least 3 sides of the building before entering...the time you take to get an immediate look at the 4th side of the building when it is not readily accessible could allow the fire to grow exponentially and could mean the difference between life and death for anyone still inside.
3. CRAWL!!
4. Incident Commander should assign members early on to get a look at the back of the building and communicate findings to everyone on the fireground (again, this may not be practical to assign to first due Engine or Ladder Companies).
5. CRAWL!!!
6. Develop a mindset of constantly sizing up the building from a six-sided perspective. This doesn't mean you need to actually see all six-sides (all four "sides" plus what is above you and what is below you), but rather that you are "situationally aware" of there being six sides the building and that all members on the fireground are continually assessing and communicating to one another fire and smoke location, structural integrity, etc.
The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.
7. CRAWL!!!!

To those members of the local media who read this forum...don't you think it would be important to investigate and report whether or not the response to this fire was inadequate and / or delayed? Also, who took these pictures? It wasn't a member of one of the departments who responded to the fire, was it?

After speaking to a civilian who witnessed this response from the start and in reading the Incident alert it seems like manpower was an issue at this fire. Initial dispatch was at 2200 and someone (the IC?) stated over the air that there was "limited manpower" at 2224??? I would think that 10pm on a Friday night would be one of the most likely times that volunteers would turn out. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of qualified personnel who can respond in a timely manner in this area? I'm particularly concerned because my Mom lives in this area.