wraftery

Well said. You are correct every firefighter and every rig should be able to be FAST, it is clear that due to lack of training, experience, or personnel (including interior certified) many departments and their members can not do this critical and basic function of rescuing another firefighter.

I don't understand why chiefs and coordinators have to worry about what department to call upon to provide a FAST crew. When I was still on the job, all of the firefighters in my career department were trained in FAST procedures and all ladder companies were fully equipped for that mission. In addition, all interior firefighters in my volunteer company were FAST trained and our apparatus were fully equipped for the task. FAST is a vital part of keeping our firefighters safe, it should not be treated as some kind of specialty such as Haz Mat, dive or high angle rescue. FAST training should be a part of basic firefighter training just like engine and ladder company operations are.

I have, in reading this thread, identified what I consider to be a serious problem. It seems that in the Dutchess County area there is an awful lot of misinformation regarding FAST (RIT, MAI, RIC). The basics of the requirements for FAST have to be known from top to bottom (Chief to proby) in every FD. When you pull up to a job, a FAST Plan has to be established, to follow the 2 in 2 out requirement. You are not following the rule if your plan is something like "8 in 1 out and call for a qualified FAST team who will take 20 minutes to get there.
I see too many problems in this thread to be corrected by a few paragraphs by well knowledged people in this thread. It will require some formal training for most of the Depts whose people posted in this thread. The best advice I can give you is this; If you posted in thiis thread or your dept is mentioned in this thread, your Dept may have some serious problems with FAST requirement. Note that I said MAY. I sugggest you get in touch with OFPC,State Chiefs or Dave Walsh of Dutchess CC. Show them this thread. I'm sure they can come up with something to get you squared away.
I saw that efdcapt115 edited his post because of unnecessary harshness. Sorry you did that, Cap. This thread calls for a littlle roughing the kicker and piling on.

I have, in reading this thread, identified what I consider to be a serious problem. It seems that in the Dutchess County area there is an awful lot of misinformation regarding FAST (RIT, MAI, RIC). The basics of the requirements for FAST have to be known from top to bottom (Chief to proby) in every FD. When you pull up to a job, a FAST Plan has to be established, to follow the 2 in 2 out requirement. You are not following the rule if your plan is something like "8 in 1 out and call for a qualified FAST team who will take 20 minutes to get there.
I see too many problems in this thread to be corrected by a few paragraphs by well knowledged people in this thread. It will require some formal training for most of the Depts whose people posted in this thread. The best advice I can give you is this; If you posted in thiis thread or your dept is mentioned in this thread, your Dept may have some serious problems with FAST requirement. Note that I said MAY. I sugggest you get in touch with OFPC,State Chiefs or Dave Walsh of Dutchess CC. Show them this thread. I'm sure they can come up with something to get you squared away.
I saw that efdcapt115 edited his post because of unnecessary harshness. Sorry you did that, Cap. This thread calls for a littlle roughing the kicker and piling on.

You guys are hung up on the "Took a class on how to run a Fire Department" quote.
This quote originally appeared in the Journal noNews quite a while ago, and I believe it had a typographical error that was never retracted by the newspaper.
The misspelled word was "ruin"

You guys are hung up on the "Took a class on how to run a Fire Department" quote.
This quote originally appeared in the Journal noNews quite a while ago, and I believe it had a typographical error that was never retracted by the newspaper.
The misspelled word was "ruin"

A well written article:
Less Diversity Is Needed in the Fire Service
Feb 1, 2010 By Kelly B. Jernigan
This commentary is in response to “A Matter of National Security” by Joseph B. Muhammad of the International Association of Black Professional Fire Fighters (IABFF) (Fire Commentary, September 2009). Wait, what? There is such a thing as the IABFF? Isn’t that what the International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF) is for? The advancement of firefighters? Not black firefighters, not white firefighters, not female firefighters, not Hispanic firefighters, but FIREFIGHTERS? Aren’t we all one in this profession?
After reading the article during lunch, I continued my daily duties at the firehouse, which included training. During training on a new piece of equipment, I ended up at the computer looking up technical specification questions that arose with our hands-on ventures. I did not find what I was looking for, but my search endeavors led me to the forums on the Fire Engineering Web site (www.fireengineering.com) regarding discrimination in the fire service. The topic was not as popular as I originally thought. I was expecting an infinite number of search results written by anyone who had an opinion on racism and diversity. However, very few of these articles were of any relevance to the fire service.
In the forums, I discovered the same type of promotional test controversy in Houston, Texas. I searched for the case and found the article “7 Black Houston Firefighters Sue, Say City Exam Biased.” Similar to the New Haven 20 case, Dennis Thompson, the lawyer for the black firefighters in Houston, argued the tests were unfair. “Firefighters trying to attain the rank of captain and above in the Houston Fire Department must take a 100-question multiple-choice test. Numerous studies show that blacks as a group do less well on high-stakes tests,” Thompson said. He also stated, “Fire departments should use cognitive tests only as a pass-fail benchmark and also should focus on performance exercises and other criteria.” (Carolyn Feibel, Houston Chronicle, February 6, 2009)
Captain Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association (HBFA), said, “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests.” He also stated, “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” Statements such as these say to me Jordan believes black firefighters are not as intelligent as those of other races. It sounds like these lawyers and black firefighter associations are trying to prove their point by making their own race look bad. The HBFA was not affiliated with the lawsuit.
If I were black, I would be irate at this lawyer or this group for saying I am not smart enough to take the same test as other races. I know if I were involved in a female coalition and it represented me with this argument, I would definitely ask for my dues back.
I agree there are credible accusations and incidents of discrimination, many of which aren’t officially stated or do not make it past the initial grievance procedure. Some of these situations fall into the same category as the New Haven 20 “reverse discrimination” lawsuit, and the individuals involved don’t have the money or the time to challenge city government. They would rather go on and do their jobs as firefighters and hope things are improved by someone high enough wanting to do what is right for the department.
Enough on the discrimination issue. I had to finish some things around the station, eat supper, and do the daily rituals before calling it a “workday” at the firehouse. Still, I couldn’t get this situation out of my mind. After many long hours pondering the subject of the New Haven 20, Houston, and even my own fire department, I have come to this conclusion: We need less diversity in the fire service.
Yes, I said it, less diversity. Let me explain. In my mind there are two types of people in the fire service—there are firefighters and there are people who work for the fire department.
FIREFIGHTERS
Firefighters are people of all races, religions, walks of life—male and female—who live their lives for the fire service. They are the people who dreamed their whole lives about becoming firefighters or have been introduced to the lifestyle and fell in love with it. Firefighters are the ones who take the extra initiative to produce and conduct training, constantly learn new things about the fire service, and make suggestions on how to make the job safer and more efficient. Firefighters are the ones who worry about brotherhood and watching out for their fellow firefighters at all costs. Firefighters are the ones you want beside you when it hits the fan deep inside a building, when you are searching for the small child or elderly person and the smoke, heat, and fire are banked down so low it feels like your body is going to melt. Firefighters will be there with you until the end.
Firefighters, when deciding to advance up the career ladder, will study promotional materials during every spare moment. They prepare for the tests, and most do well. But if they don’t, they blame no one but themselves, knowing that even though they may not be good test takers, they should have prepared more and studied harder. And by doing this, the next time they will do better.
Even as chiefs or company officers, it shows if your heart is in the fire service. Chiefs and company officers whose first love is the fire service are the ones who know the fire department is unlike any other department in the city. The fire department doesn’t bring in as much revenue as the police department or Collections, but it is a necessity.
Fire officers who fall into this category are not afraid to ask for what their people need. They are not afraid to be the rogue avengers, to take on the city managers and convince them what the department needs to be the best and the safest. They are the ones worried about the times when we have to make split-second decisions and knowing they are the right decisions, not about the things that we can go back and look up while sitting behind a desk.
FIRE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES
On the other hand, you have the people who work for the fire department. These are people who saw the ad in the paper for the fire department agility test and decided maybe working for city government would be better than working at a fast food restaurant. Fire department employees are also people of all races, religions, and walks of life—male and female. These are the employees who arrive at work at the last minute, abuse sick time, and never read or study to better themselves. They are the ones who do just enough to get by. They can usually quote verbatim the policies and procedures because they often use them to their advantage to see what they can get away with doing or not doing.
Officers who are fire department employees are the ones who are more worried about proper supervisory methods and how to do paperwork. While these tasks are extremely important and must be mastered, learning how to operate efficiently and aggressively on the fire scene, in my opinion, is an art that must be learned first and foremost. We have all seen the type—officers who are great at doing administrative duties and paperwork but on the emergency scene are ineffective to the point of being inept. They are the ones who look good in the administration’s eyes because they never want to rock the boat. They never want to go against the grain to offer any new suggestions, even if those suggestions are for life safety. These officers will never stick their necks out and have to be on the defensive or give justification for having to go against policy for doing what it took to save a life.
WHICH ONE ARE YOU?
When you meet people in the fire service, you can talk to them for about 10 minutes and tell if you are talking to firefighters or people who work for the fire department. You can tell if they are genuinely interested in taking the promotion to better themselves along with hopes of bettering the department or if they are just interested in the status and the pay raise that come with the promotion.
To put it in perspective, look around at some of the females in the fire service. I use this analogy because I can’t be labeled as prejudiced if I talk about my own kind, right? Are they firefighters or just females who work in the fire department? When the alarm comes in, do they have that “Let’s go get it, guys” attitude, or do they kind of hang back, hoping someone will take the lead? Are they the drivers who, when the announcement comes over the radio, “Smoke and heavy flames visible,” you hear the engine brake kick in, or are they the ones the officer has to call into the office after returning from the call and tell them, “Slow down, we can’t do anything if we don’t get there”? Do they expect and demand to have separate quarters all their own, or do they strive to be one of the guys? Do they become sensitive when the word “fireman” is used instead of “firefighter,” or is that how they introduce themselves, only to be corrected by the public?
A firefighter who happens to be a female is the one who doesn’t care about special treatment. She expects and demands to be treated equally—not better, equally.
You can talk to Blacks, Hispanics, and all the other races and tell the same. Black and Hispanic firefighters are no different from any other firefighters. They love the job. They are firefighters first and foremost.
It’s the same situation no matter who you are. It may be different in general industry, but as much as we preach diversity, understanding differences, and equal opportunity, it all boils down to one thing in the fire service: Are you a firefighter or just someone who works for the fire department?
THE PERFECT WORLD
Imagine working for a department with all firefighters. Very few disciplinary procedures would be needed. If there were discipline, it would be for a minor infraction such as broken glass at the station from friendly horseplay. Everyone on the fire scene would know what they are supposed to do without being told, and they would know how to do it.
We would have chiefs who are looked up to by everyone because they would be in that position because they deserve it, not because they know how to dress up a resume. They would not be afraid to take on the budget committees and city councils to get the money their firefighters need to be the best fire department in the state instead of thinking it will make them look good if they can turn in extra money at the end of the year.
We would promote based on validated test scores, time in service, work ethics, past appraisals, and coworker recommendations. Promotions would not be based on diversity quotas or a friend taking a good friend to the top. In return, once people realize how promotions work in the department of firefighters, and if they wanted to be promoted, they would step up and produce all year, not just around promotion time. This is the reason we need to join together and express our desires to hire and promote individuals who are not only good employees but who are great firefighters or who are the type of officers we want to work for or strive to be like. Let’s do away with hiring employees and start hiring people who genuinely want to be firefighters.
So next time you’re thinking of becoming a member of an ethnic or gender-specific organization so you can get help with screaming, “I didn’t get promoted because of my color, gender, ethnicity, or religion,” think about what class you represent. Are you a firefighter, or do you just work for the fire department?
Kelly B. Jernigan is a 19-year veteran of the fire service and a captain on Winston-Salem (NC) Fire Department Truck 2. She is a former deputy chief and training officer with the South Lexington (NC) Volunteer Fire Department. Jernigan is a level II fire service and live burn instructor for the North Carolina Fire and Rescue Commission. She is a certified hazardous materials specialist and a rescue technician rope specialist. She was also the fire and rescue coordinator for Davidson County Community College for 10 years and has an associate degree in computer programming.

You guys are hung up on the "Took a class on how to run a Fire Department" quote.
This quote originally appeared in the Journal noNews quite a while ago, and I believe it had a typographical error that was never retracted by the newspaper.
The misspelled word was "ruin"

TV, RADIO, INTERNET, REVERSE 911. SEMAPHORE, SMOKE SIGNALS, OR FREE ONE-DAY PASS TO DISNEYWORLD. It doesn't matter how you ask. Only a small percentage of people will shovel out their hydrant. About the same percentage will shovel their snow onto the hydrant because it's a convenient place to put it.

Good Thread Capt Benz
Here's a post I put out on a seemingly good thread that died rapidly. I thought it fit this thread as a fireground tip. Hpoefully, you are in a FD thata allows anyone to make this kind of call, and not have to wait for a Chief.
"Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.

When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident"

You are correct. The "Fire engines are red" argument is one I lost.
And Barry, Looking closer at Batt2's vehicle it IS a coffeepot! Where have you gone, Joe DDiMaggio?

The responders in those areas that are accessable only by water should be preplanning resources for a MCI in those places. Now is the time to work these things out. You will probably need private resources form a distance...maybe something like NY Water Taxi, with a 1 hr response time. Also, you can't just Say we'll use NY water Taxi. The resource has to be agreeable beforehand before you can consider it a resource.
More important: Talk to Spanky. The railroad right-of-way is his jurisdiction, not yours. There is also a distinct possibility that Spanky already thought of this problem spot in his jurisdiction and already has a preplan. That's his job.
Remember brainstorming is OK, however "Too many cooks screw up the soup."

There was a MCI drill at the N White Plains yard about 5 years ago. It was set up by my favorite Metro North Chief.

There was a MCI drill at the N White Plains yard about 5 years ago. It was set up by my favorite Metro North Chief.

Mike, you are right on. Look at this thread and who answered. They are all guys with time on the job, experience, and a lot of training. I just hope that the new generation is reading this thread and gaining some knowledge from it. Hopefully, they are not stuck on things like the Stamford situation, fire engine photos, etc.
We have seen 100's of comments on one photo of a guy on a roof with a saw. They picked out dozens of tiny little items in that one photo, but throw up a picture of a train wreck, and all you get is silence.
Like you said, "Something is just not right here."

Low pressure airbags should work for stabilization, just like righting a tractor trailer. Because you have a railroad car version of pick up sticks, I would not try to right cars, just apply a gentle touch for stabilization, do your work search,rescue,extricate etc. and move on to the next.
SPANKY will take care of all the disentanglement afterward. I would like to give 1 vote to Spanky just because he was recognized bt the Capt. Maybe a forum administrator could make this happen. What do say efdcapt115, wanna give a vote to Spanky too?

Here's the scenario:
Odor of gasoline in a 2 story garden apartment with garages underneath on Side C. Source traced to a garage which was the Super's maintensnce garage. The fuel line of a snowblower broke and leaked fuel on the floor. What we saw was a fuel-soaked pile of kitty litter or oilsorb under the snowblower.
Here's the conversation:
Me; Ya know, it's OK to soak up the fuel, but you gotta bag up the kitty litter and get it out of the building.
Super: That's not kitty litter
Me: OK oil sorb,whatever
Supt: No, it's that stuff you put on the grass
Me:Fertilizer?
Supt: Yeah
Me: WTF
OK you EOD guys, what was that, ANFO's Redneck Cousin?

While doing routine inspections, our guys found a military rocket in aa basement storeroom of 6 story OMD..
Small rocket...probably would have only made it to the 4th floor.

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

This one is just too good to pass up. We were vertualy across the street from an A&P at one time the Chief decided that we should send one man to the store for lunch. ok not a bad idea(maybe) so he made an order that the "light duty" man would go. hmmm can you see the problems coming cant you, It seemed that the "light duty" firefighter was having a "problem" with the department with his status, haveing said that the Chief ordered him to go to the store. did I mention that he was ordred to WALK to the store?? he was on light duty because of a back injury, so he called the police and asked about crossing the street in the middle of the block---we all know what the response was. So the firefighter in question walked all the way up to the cornor crossed the street did the shopping walked allthe way back but because the lunch was "kinda" heavy he took a shopping cart out of the store area. walked all the way back up to the cornor then all the way to the station. got the lunch back to the station around 1:30 in the afternoon. it gets better he left the shopping cart on the ramp and then called the police to report it!!! The look on the chief face was pricless when the officer came to take statements.
cant fool fighters for long
I should write a book but no one would believe it--except maybe you guys
and dont for get we get to park on departmental property for free!!

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

Take a look! Mass. law requires meal periods just like NY FF's who eat at the House do not get these bresks as required...How many times have you guys left your lunch on the table to take a run? Look at the Mass labor law eplaiined:
"Breaks during the work day keep us all sane and safe. Allowing breaks during the workday isn't just a matter of practice or what might be viewed as nice. In fact, Massachusetts law does regulate meal breaks and whether employers are required to pay employees for those breaks. To help answer this question, I consulted David Conforto, founder and managing partner of Conforto Law Group, a Boston boutique firm that represents workers in employment law matters.
"Massachusetts employees who work more than six hours a day must be provided with a minimum of 30 minutes unpaid time for a meal. Employers who violate this provision are subject to fines ranging from $300 to $600 per violation"
If you go on a run during your "meal period," the city sent you on that run and interrupted your meal period. The city then would be in violation and subject to a $300 to $600 fine for each person in your company.
On the other hand, giving meal periods to all FF's working on any given day would be a costly administrative nightmare.
My advice on shopping FF's? Let them sshop. It really doesn't cost a lot, and if you call, they'll still be at your front door in three minutes.