spin_the_wheel

2 hours ago, bfd1144 said:

Disgusting- were all brothers, regardless of race, color or creed.

BMA

4 hours ago, STAT213 said:

That makes zero sense. But it's motivated by politics, not common sense. 

 

Riddle me this. Why is it that departments think that one engine and one truck is enough manpower for an extra alarm? 

 

You're calling for more help. Why not call for ENOUGH help? 

"One and one" to the scene is pretty much the norm in most places when an extra alarm is struck.  Most of the time one and one is also sent to standby at a departments quarters as well.  The next alarm the units standing by move up to the scene and a new set of "one and one" go to the firehouse.  Not everywhere but most places.

You also have to consider these are career departments.  Taking one and one form some of the smaller ones may leave that department with nothing left of on duty personnel until a recall or a mutual aid to their department is requested. 

Also they will only call other career departments so this limits the amount of assistance they can call many times. 

2 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

But unfortunately here is something else those taxpayers don't understand because NOBODY tells them. "It's NOT the number of fancy fire trucks that put out the fires, it's people that put out those fires". Yes, it's the number of skilled and highly trained firefighters that show up who really are the one's that save their lives and put out their fires quickly before they loose everything.

 

 Let's go back to the FDNY, who once did a study on number of fire trucks vs number of firefighters that showed up. (maybe Bad Box remembers this). They found that in MOST cases Two Engines and Two Ladder trucks could handle most building fires in the initial stages. But it was really the amount of manning that arrived quickly on the scene that had the biggest impact on saving lives and property. Hence came the signal 10-75 as it is known, then providing an extra Engine Co purely for manpower to fight the fire. Later of course came the response of a FAST Co etc.

 

  Also in L.A. City, the FD there found that a Task Force consisting of Two Engines and One Ladder, arriving with it's full staff together would be much more effective than several companies all arriving at different times.

 

Now we look at a place like Long Island and we know fully manned companies arriving together is NOT the case. In addition what I'm sure is a key factor in the fires fought on Long Island that most other areas do not have, is that so many departments are lucky enough to have available many OFF DUTY FDNY members. They are available and probably some of the Best Trained and Most Experienced group of firefighters in the World. Most places don't have that option.

 

Also what those Long Island taxpayers don't know is that the fires would still be put out WITHOUT spending money on all those fancy fire trucks. Cut two thirds out and the results would be the same.

Newsday did an extensive series on the status of the volunteer service on LI years ago.  They put all the facts out there for the public to see.  Correct or incorrect.  What did it do?  It did help keep in check many fire districts who were doing things wrong for years and has kept close accountability on spending habits to this day.  Otherwise it has not had the effect many thought it would on the average taxpayer.  

More important then having FDNY members in LI fire departments is just the pure blue collar civil service worker who may be a shift worker.  My department sees a lot of fire for an all volunteer department and we have very few FDNY members.  But we do have many other shift workers who get the rigs out.  Police officers, emergency service dispatchers, fire marshals, correction officers, career EMT's, nurses, sanitation and dpw workers.  These are the people who keep the average volunteer fire department running in most LI departments.  

8 hours ago, bad box said:

Spending $500,000 to $1 million for a heavy rescue vehicle if all it does is carry an extrication tool and whatever non essential leftovers that don't fit on another rig is a senseless waste of tax dollars. Any full size pumper or aerial device can carry an extrication tool and cribbing. If a department reevaluates the left over stuff that's carried on their expensive rescue truck they may well find that much of it isn't needed and the rest is a duplication of items that are on other rigs or can be carried on the other rigs.

Agreed.  In most cases a dedicated rescue rig is not needed. 

Truth is for the most part the taxpayers don't give a crap.  In Nassau and Suffolk your fire tax is one of the smallest if not the smallest tax compared to the rest of the bill.  There are extreme examples...Gordon Heights in Suffolk is one...but not many.  

7 hours ago, babhits16 said:

One thing that must be considered about these 'heavy rescues' is that they are often nothing more than scene support + basic extrication, and are not considered a special unit.  The hurst tool makes them 'heavy'.  Beyond hydraulic tools, airbags and cribbing there is nothing that makes them 'heavy'- the rest of the truck is filled with scene support gear such as spare SCBA's, generators, extra handtools, speedy dry etc.  There is no special training, just pass FF1 like anyone else.

 

In my opinion a true heavy rescue is a special unit, comprised of experienced FF's that are TRAINED and EQUIPPED for vehicle extrication, technical rescue, SCUBA (if applicable), minor hazmat, and most importantly FAST/ RIT. Not scene support.  Remember first rescue company in the nation (FDNY Rescue 1) was created for the sole purpose of firefighter rescue.

 

Another good point was made- most heavy rescue are apart of their own companies.  As unnecessary as they are they will never go away, remember a fire company in NYS can technically be considered a legal form of government.

 

There are a few departments in Nassau County that operate 'heavy rescues' in the traditional sense.  They are well trained and can be used as a regional asset and their record of providing mutual aide to other agencies for special situations proves it (Bethpage, North Bellmore).

Great point.  I hate to compare FDNY to any other organization as they are in a world to their own.  Especially when it is said "FDNY only has 5 rescues for the whole....."  I have always thought that a weak argument.  What are we exactly talking about?  The equipment and function of the rig or the rig itself?

As babhits states volunteer rescue trucks are pretty much scene support units.  An FDNY heavy rescue has nothing in common with the average volunteer departments "heavy rescue" and should not be compared. 

The average volunteer departments rescue rig carries the extrication tool and anything that can't be stored on the other rigs.  FDNY ladder companies do the bulk of the auto extrications unless the accident happens to be in one of the rescue companies first due areas.   So if we are talking about extrication tools are we to compare the number of ladder companies with extrication tools in NY City vs. the number of rescue trucks in Nassau or Suffolk?   Many volunteer departments have one extrication tool on a heavy rescue rig.  Are we saying that there are too many extrication tools in Nassau or Suffolk or Westchester etc....?

If we are to argue for trimming certain departments fleets down looking at a rig that is for the most part a scene support unit might not be the rig to cut.  Maybe an Engine in some departments where one of three is always sitting in the station even during working fires.

8 hours ago, bad box said:

The Nassau County departments that have heavy rescues generally also have one or more aerials (including tower ladders). If you think it's justifiable for Nassau County to have that many heavy rescue rigs then more power to you. The fact is, it's a massive waste of taxpayer dollars.

Back in the day dedicated rescue rigs were needed to carry extrication equipment and other "rescue" tools.  How many remember the first generation Hurst tools and cutters?  A lot of space was needed for all this "stuff."  Each community needed such a rig to carry the equipment. 

Nowadays a properly spec'd out Ladder or Engine can carry all this equipment plus more.  Dedicated rescue rigs are really not needed in many Nassau Communities agreed. 

Once again the root of the problem comes back to history/tradition and leadership afraid of making a change.  Most of the time what you have is a dedicated rescue or patrol company (Westchester/rockland term) with a group of members with a history.  Sometimes a very old history.  That's the rig they use, a rescue truck.  As leadership in a particular department do you just take the rig away, sell it and disband the company?  Tell the membership they have to join other companies?  Nobody wants to be "that guy" to do such a thing.  Not saying its wrong...just putting the facts out there.

What you end up with is another form of "consolidation" that the fire service both volunteer AND career are afraid to entertain most of the time.

In a perfect world there should be ONE dispatch center to handle ALL the fire departments in a county. Big cities within a certain county aside (Yonkers, White Plains) could have their own due to complex procedures and work load. Other then that there should be on center. Nassau County is just as screwed up as Westchester with dozens of PSAPS and dispatch voices doing fire radio.

In fact in Nassau a smaller dept. being dispatched by a larger neighboring department is leaving to form their own dispatch. In their 111 year history they have never had their own dispatch center.

Not even going to the county, which is free. I would imagine the person will also act as a "houseman" with minimal cleaning and record keeping duties as well to justify this expense but here in the year F'in 2015 we are continually going backwards!

It is what it is. Warner Brothers does not want to take the hit of bad PR that it will undoubtedly take if it does not do this. It's one thing for a private individual to fly this flag and display it, but a "public" company so to speak. Not in 2015.

About 6 years ago or so one of my departments Engine companies took a hit because there nickname since the 1920's was the Rebels. Unfortunately that flag is associated with the name. Their company logo displayed a confederate flag. After community uproar it was removed. You can't defend this image and win, trust me on this.

It's just a matter of time for other "public" companies, agencies or sports teams who display this flag to come under fire.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but I wanted to give my take on why we don't take a fire truck to every alarm (no disrespect spin-the-wheel as I think your posts are very knowledgeable and well thought out). This is my opinion on the matter....

When I was a fire officer I used to cringe when the department's large pieces would leave the firehouse. The tones would drop and a chauffeur (he could be 21 years old...could be 77 years old) who would drive a truck once a week (at best...some guys would only drive once a month, or even once every three months) a mile down the road to a bullshit call would hop out of his Honda Civic after being jolted from a sound sleep during a rain storm and get behind the wheel of a 30,000lb engine with 5 other souls on board.

Now, add a mutual aid situation to the mix. This guy is driving the rig under the same situation as previously stipulated (rain, being jolted from a sound sleep in the middle of the night, and only driving once a week at most...maybe even once a month if he is an occasional chauffeur) and add the stress of responding to a working fire, on unfamiliar roadways outside of district, and in close proximity to dozens of other large pieces of equipment who also have amateur chauffeurs. The potential for disaster or damage is huge here.

When I was Captain, our rescue was parked at a parade and the bucket of a neighboring town's ladder that was backing-in next to the rig went right through the front windows of the cab. It took the rig out of service of 3 months to get fixed. Over that time my life was extremely overcomplicated because our rescue was absent, our engine was overloaded with rescue/extrication equipment wherever it would fit, operations and training were extremely overcomplicated, and the quality of service that could be provided to the taxpayers was negatively impacted. I learned a valuable lesson here...if you can handle an EMS call with a utility, then there is no reason to take an engine.

The solution to the problem is training...but as well all know manpower is sparse and if you make it too hard to get qualified then the guys would get discouraged and just give up trying. So you just have to say, "this guy has put in as much effort as I think he is willing to put into this and he knows enough to not get anyone killed on the way to your everyday alarm. He can draft and put an attack line into operation so we will have to just give him our blessing." The department with which I was previously affiliated didn't even require drivers to take EVOC or Pump Ops to Chauffeur an engine because the members simply would choose not to drive and the trucks wouldn't get out.

Do I agree with this? HELL NO...

The problem is inherent to the volunteer fire service and cannot be adequately corrected as the involved factors are correlated...you can't have all three: knowledgeable, quality chauffeurs; happy, motivated and accomplished-feeling manpower (drivers); and apparatus that make it out the door for every alarm.

If you had to cringe as an officer when the rigs go out the door then I really feel sorry for you. That is a bad, bad situation.

How many calls a year do both departments do?

Also curious....does 60 Control have a dedicated call taker position?

How is the room broken up? North South? Are the departments split about even between dispatchers?

I would imagine New Rochelle has its own dispatcher?

First off, its a car fire...you're not saving it. Make it look good, and hit it with a couple of cans until the engine gets there.

Second, how is this any different then if they were in a utility, a ladder, a rescue, or those billboards called Chief's Cars. There is always going to be a situation where you may come upon an incident in a marked vehicle where the unit in which you are riding is not equipped to handle. Its just part of the job. What if your engine comes across a pin job and has to wait for the rescue? Or your engine comes upon a man hanging from a scaffold and has to wait for a ladder? Having guys always returning from fires in an engine isn't exactly an end-all-be-all to every situation that you may come across.

Your points are valid. But I still think we are firefighters...when the alarm comes in or we go mutual aid we take a fire truck.

I don't know where things got so twisted that this is now looked at as a bad idea. Again we will agree to disagree. Be safe everyone.

Department A send 16 passenger bus to the fire training center for a FF1 class. 6 guys just throw 6 scba's and an assortment of tools into the walkway between the rows of seats. On the way the bus has a terrible accident and the unsecured tools fly all over the interior of the bus hitting the members. What would OSHA and NIOSH say to this act?

Maybe They should have a caged cargo area in the back or a policy that NO equipment be carried unsecured.

Now haw many departments have sent out this message: "Working fire - Additional manpower is needed" And a dozen additional private vehicles show up parked along the road leading to the scene. When they all go home, what if their is another call, what if they pass a car fire, what if?????

How do you defend when the fire in your district gets 1 engine and the other 2, 3 or 4 don't roll, because you no longer have the staffing? But the get replaced because we have to keep up the fleet.

Sending guys to school and sending them to an emergency response is two different things. If the mutual aid response is no lights and sirens with the bus or van or whatever that's ok.

A caged cargo area or planned out design to secure tools fine. My first post in this thread stated that a properly planned rig for transport is great. How about we take the hurst tools off the rescue rigs put them on the engines or ladders and turn all the rescue rigs into "Transports" don't even have to buy new rigs.

Going home in your personal vehicle and coming upon an emergency well....not much you can do I agree.

BUT coming home in a marked fire vehicle from an emergency where the 6 guys all get off with gear and some tools and cant do anything because they left the engine or ladder back home is another thing. Just looks bad. We will agree to disagree.

I agree the big problem is the rigs left behind unmanned. I never argued that. My first post in this thread stated that. That is one of the things consolidation would help in. Each department would now be responsible for 1 or 2 rigs (and a bus for transport) instead of a fleet of 6 rigs where 4 sit during working fires.

I don't have any stake in this argument at all whatsoever and have no opinion one way or the other. However, it does sound similar to something that already exists in our area. When you call Mount Kisco F.A.S.T. they have an ambulance/bus type vehicle that is outfitted with their F.A.S.T. equipment and air packs. To take the "bus" comparison a step further, I believe the rig leaves from IFCO with however many F.A.S.T. qualified members that they have, then stops by Hooks to pick up their F.A.S.T. qualified members, then stops by Mutuals to pick up their F.A.S.T. qualified members, then proceeds to the scene. Sounds like a bus to me...

Key here is "outfitted with their FAST equipment and air packs" A rig designed for transport of manpower and tools is fine. But some here are making it sound like you can just grab your department school bus and "throw" everything in.

I think Ossining has a special unit designed for their FAST/RIT responses as well. That's fine.

No I am not suggesting we all go out and buy these. My point was there are times when it makes sense to use vehicles other than engines for transport. that's all.

I'll play devils advocate. Department A responds mutual aid with their 16 passenger bus. 6 guys just throw 6 scba's and an assortment of tools into the walkway between the rows of seats. On the way the bus has a terrible accident and the unsecured tools fly all over the interior of the bus hitting the members. What would OSHA and NIOSH say to this act?

OR

On the way back to their district they come across a car fire...or a structure fire. Cant do anything can they. OK ok chances of that are slim.

How about an alarm for a house fire comes in or other alarm in their district on the way back. Are they going to go lights and sirens back to the firehouse to play key stone cops and jump out of the bus with all the "stuff" and get on "hopefully" the second due rig to go to the scene?

How would this scenario look to OSHA and NIOSH if something goes bad.

How would this look on the 6 o'clock news.....hmmmm let me get this straight....they took a bus to the fire and left the fire truck in the station?

Hard to defend this. Just take a front line rig. Again JMO.

I never bought the whole number of Rescue trucks argument. Back in the day, in most cases, separate companies were created, and dedicated Rescue rigs built for the lack of space on the rigs of the day. Every community and fire department wanted the latest rescue tools and extrication equipment and why not they should have them. A dedicated rig WAS needed back then. It was not about the amount of rescue trucks to serve a specific area. It was about the number of rescue trucks to serve and bring the needed equipment to the scene for that particular community and department. Mutual aid and manpower were not as big of an issue way back when. Every community deserved the newest equipment and why not.

Here's where the argument comes in and makes sense. Fast forward to todays fire service the need for a dedicated Rescue truck is really not needed today. UNLESS you have specialized equipment (confined, high angle, haz mat ) But the problem comes back to the "way we have always done things"...and tradition in some respect. For many departments the thought of eliminating a "company" or getting rid of rig is blasphemy. This is the problem.

Todays rigs have much more room to store extrication equipment, cutting torches, traditional rescue "stuff." Well planned Rescue Engines or Ladder trucks can serve both purposes and eliminate a separate Rescue truck.

I still feel every department owes it to the community it serves to have basic rescue equipment available and not have to wait for a neighboring agency to come to the scene. Does it need a dedicated rescue truck? No I do not think that is needed. The number of actual rescue rigs should be eliminated...the number of extrication tools should not. JMO

Or training with pre plans. You can train on tanker shuttles, and I'm sure they do, but if your going to try and correct someone please don't make a fool of yourself. How about all you guys who state that manpower was needed come up with a plan on how to get the manpower there without wasting equipment needed at home. We can't outfit a small bus with 8 SCBA's to transport members of a mutual aid dept to the scene? I guess it's not as fun to respond in on a job on a bus as it is an engine!

Point taken but not a bus...a squad type unit...you Westchester guys like to call them patrols...no?

With todays requirements you would need some sort of secure storage for the scba's if they are not built into a seat back and secure storage for a good assortment of tools. Never come empty handed!

You know the consolidation of volunteer departments without the addition of any paid personnel could be a significant improvement over the completely arcane system we have now. Everyone immediately assumes that consolidation implies paid but it doesn't! How about merging 4-5 districts that serve the same town? Or the countless villages that rely heavily on each other and are smaller than a postage stamp.

Imagine a River Towns or Sound Shore or North County Fire District with several former departments under one hierarchy. Economies of scale in purchasing, reduction of apparatus numbers (and the ability to have "spares", something virtually non-existent outside the big cities), higher personnel counts, standard training, administration and operations, to name a few.

A member department with strengths in one area can help one weak in that area and so on. Officers can be vetted from a larger pool of candidates improving the quality, competition, and ultimately performance. Chiefs will oversee a bigger department giving them more experience. Budgets can be consolidated perhaps reducing the overall cost to the taxpayer.

There's a lot to be said for consolidating and it doesn't mean adding ONE paid guy.

Spot on.

Consolidation.............................

I dont think comsolidation would matter in this case. The number of appratus needed, especially with regard to tankers would be the same. Manpower as well.

BIG difference would probably be the amount of apparatus just sitting in the firehouses not manned.

Instead of 11 deparments responding to the scene it would be 1. Same "stuff" though. In most consolidation plans I hear people talk about for the North part of the county the stations would remain, but the departments would be responsble for 1 or 2 rigs instead of a "fleet."

In this case each department for the most part respomded with 1 or 2 rigs. The same scenario if it were 1 consolidated Northern agency.

Looks like a good job by the IC in what (hopefully) will be a once in a lifetime incident.

I hope Critical incident stress debriefing was offered to the first responders and I would hope Metro North would offer something to the passengers as well. By what I have read some very horrific images were witnessed by first responders and civilians.

Chiefs and commissioners...when you swore in the 18, 19 year old gung ho members they put their trust in you. Physically and mentally. So did their parents who probably signed "consent" forms. You don't want them resigning over this, leaving your organization and being forever "broken" over what they witnessed.

Good job guys.

I very rarely come onto sites like this any longer due to being able to get info on fires and other related subject matter from different sources. I-phone "groupme" and twitter to name a few.

Only a mere few years ago when a major fire would break out I would check forums like this for info. Now the "groupme" groups supply all the info in real time with photos most of the time.

Technology changes. It's amazing how much change has occurred in the years since this site started. Many 18 and 19 year olds would now consider this sort of site slow moving and somewhat lame. It's not just this site all forums are like this. Once or twice a month I usually do "the circuit" of a dozen sites I belong to and for the most part there is nothing really new. Threads that might have had pages and pages of replies now have 3 or 4.

Time and technology marches on and does not wait for those that are out of step.

Elmont Nassau County LINY Total-1490, 1107 firecalls, 383 ambulance requests, 16 working fires, 41 mutual aid fire requests (FAST included) 50 alarms at Belmont Race Track, 81 calls on the Southern State Parkway.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Elmont-Fire-Department/550454695023432

Remember, every day is Saturday for the rest of your life. Congratulations.

AND...every night is Friday. Best Of Luck!!! Keep the Macks running!

Where can I get those firefighter "slides" they talk about.

More bandaids...

Or...velcro.