FFLieu

I agree, but I think the whole QTIP thing is a bit overused. Sure, there are some who take things to a degree higher than what was originally intended, but you'll find that everywhere. But, there are some who hide behind it. It's like cursing someone off and then when they get mad, saying "oh, QTIP." Just because QTIP is something that you see all over internet message boards such as this doesn't necessarily mean that it's a catch-all for statements made in poor taste.

At the risk of getting a few malicious negatives (like the ones I got when someone actually looked me up and then negatively rated a thread that I had started LAST YEAR), not that I care too much anyway, I'd like to come out and say that I think the whole membership rating system is nothing more than a popularity contest that contributes nothing to the board. The whole point to the board is to debate the issues; if you agree and would be inclined to rate a post or thread positive, you don't have to say anything other than "I agree." Conversely, if you disagree, and would be inclined to rate it negatively, then it just seems better to debate the issue.

At the risk of getting a few malicious negatives (like the ones I got when someone actually looked me up and then negatively rated a thread that I had started LAST YEAR), not that I care too much anyway, I'd like to come out and say that I think the whole membership rating system is nothing more than a popularity contest that contributes nothing to the board. The whole point to the board is to debate the issues; if you agree and would be inclined to rate a post or thread positive, you don't have to say anything other than "I agree." Conversely, if you disagree, and would be inclined to rate it negatively, then it just seems better to debate the issue.

At the risk of getting a few malicious negatives (like the ones I got when someone actually looked me up and then negatively rated a thread that I had started LAST YEAR), not that I care too much anyway, I'd like to come out and say that I think the whole membership rating system is nothing more than a popularity contest that contributes nothing to the board. The whole point to the board is to debate the issues; if you agree and would be inclined to rate a post or thread positive, you don't have to say anything other than "I agree." Conversely, if you disagree, and would be inclined to rate it negatively, then it just seems better to debate the issue.

I'm glad I'm on your side...oops, actually I meant to say that we're all on the same side and I'm glad that you're, well...um...I'm, ummm, well you know what I mean....

This is bad policy. It is wrong headed and unfair on so many levels, and it won't make any significant improvement in services delivered.

If I remember correctly, the day after the fire several pet cats that lived in the building were found alive in several apartments back then. Many were amazed at the way the cats hid during the fire.

My background is in truck and Rescue work mostly so I'm not an Engine expert but I will now show you all how I am an equal opportunity critic...YFD does not normally team up multiple engine companies to stretch the first line (or any lines). Typically every engine on the first alarm gets their own hydrant and forward stretches in, leaving the officer and nozzleman to stretch the handline which is normally 1 3/4". The hydrant man hooks up, charges the hydrant and follows the line in. If the hydrant is close enough, the driver may get the hydrant himself, allowing an additional man on the stretch. My personal opinion is that for any stretch longer than 3 lengths it would ususlly be better for two engine companies to team up, utilizing one hydrant and using the remaining members to stretch and operate a single hoseline. We rarely do this. Of course, for departments around here, other than FDNY, it is difficult to make hard and fast SOG's regarding such evolutions because manpower is limited and sometimes it is better to inadequately stretch and operate three hoselines than to adequately stretch and operate one hoseline in the initial stages of the fire. In another words, sometimes a little water in three places( fire floor, floor above, exposure line as an example) with a little delay is better than a lot of water in one place with no delay, if that makes any sense. Unfortunately there is a stigma on our department attached to not having a hydrant or not stretching your own line which IMO shouldn't be. I would like to see more first due Engine companies getting on the radio and telling the second due to supply them and using the "hydrant man" on the stretch of the initial hoseline. Then, after supplying first due engine (or as this is being done) second due engine can make the decision whether or not to stretch their own line or help the first due, dependent on the conditions found. I have spoken to many FDNY members over the years who think we are crazy to not team up engine companies and they have a valid point but it is not quite as simple as it may seem to an FDNY member due to our lack of manpower.
As a Chief, if I have members searching the fire floor and the floor above, and fire in or about to be in the exposure building(s), I may decide to have all 4 engines on the first alarm stretch their own line in order to cover these areas, even though I realize these lines are woefully undermanned and we are stretching 1 3/4 when 2 1/2 would be preferable...on the other hand, if there is fire confined to an apartment on an upper floor on arrival, the right move may be to team up two engines or possibly even three to get that first line in and oftentimes we don't even consider that option because each engine getting their own hydrant and stretching their own line is so ingrained. Old habits die hard....
I wrote this fast so apologize if it is rambling...this has been one of my many pet peeves about my own department for many years and it is not a black and white issue so YFD guys, please remember.....qtip

Thank you scarsdale fd fast for your proactive laddering of the fire building

Thanks Chris. Exellent points. Just for clarification our additional alarms are normally 2 Engines and 1 Truck so that would be only 12 people total (all companies are staffed by 1 Officer and 3 Firefighters). The remaining Battalion Chief with his Aide (there are two on duty at all times) and the on call Deputy (no aide) come with the second alarm so the second alarm would actually have 15 members and all additional alarms would have 12 members.
We call mutual aide once we go below 3 Engines and 2 Ladders in the City and we do try to get them back to their municipality as soon as possible by freeing up in service companies as well as recalling off duty members to man spare apparatus which are normally equipped and ready to go. We also call in an off duty Battalion Chief with Aide to man a spare Battalion car and cover the city once we go to a third alarm. One thing we are lacking which we have been fighting for years for is 24 / 7 Fire Department supervision of the civilain Fire Dispatchers which would really help in situations like last night. There was a lot of scrambling behind the scenes to keep the city adequately covered, as well as get our off duty members in and out the door on the spares, send the mutual aid back, rotate fresh crews to the fire scene, transport injured or exhausted members etc. while at the same time maintaining accountability of everyone and everything....thanks to the mutual aid departments who came in as well as cooperation from union leaders, off duty members, etc. this was all handled pretty well last night.
Although you point out the benefits of certain aspects of our manning and organization, I would state that we are actually at a bare minimum right now and I couldn't imagine what would happen if we were forced to operate with less companies, less manning on the companies, or less staffing on the administrative side.

If there are so many issues with this unit is worth it to rebuild / rechassis?
In investigating the costs I found you save approximatly the resale value so bying new and taking the trade in is almost the same, but you end up 100% new and the old one stays in town until the new unit arrives. Otherwise your only ladder is out of town for months.
Can you explain why you think it is perfect for Hartsdale?

After speaking to a civilian who witnessed this response from the start and in reading the Incident alert it seems like manpower was an issue at this fire. Initial dispatch was at 2200 and someone (the IC?) stated over the air that there was "limited manpower" at 2224??? I would think that 10pm on a Friday night would be one of the most likely times that volunteers would turn out. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of qualified personnel who can respond in a timely manner in this area? I'm particularly concerned because my Mom lives in this area.

efdcapt115, Look what law is still on the books!
The mayor of each city of this state and the mayor of each incorporated village may issue, under the seal of his office, to each policeman and fireman appointed by the duly-constituted authorities of such city or village, a certificate of the appointment and qualification of such policeman or fireman as such, and specifying the duration of his term of office; and it shall thereupon be the duty of every street surface and elevated railroad company carrying on business within such city or village, to transport every such policeman or fireman free of charge while he is traveling in the course of the performance of the duties of his office. Every telegraph or telephone company engaged in business within such city or village, shall afford to such policeman or fireman the use of its telegraph lines or telephones for the purpose of making and receiving reports and communications in the course of the performance of his official duties.
Don't "flip your tin" just yet. There are a couple of bumps in the road...read close:
1. It says the Mayor "may" not "must". Good luck to you when you ask the Mayor.
2. It's only good "in the course of the performance of the duties of" our office.
The second one is definitely argueable in that I think it's every fireman's duty to go to at least once in his career to a St. Pat's Parade someplace. (And also to at least one LODD funeral)
Keep the tradition alive

Badges, we don't need no stinking Badges

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.
Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.
SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

If you like I may be willing to consider being a judge. I have a very sweet disposition.

Now to address some of your points:
1. Its not up to those people you mentioned because most of those people in charge dont want to admit there is a problem.
That would require change and we cant have that. The travesty. The average citizen is also clueless when it comes to this. They are not given the correct info, because if they were, change would've happened already.
2. For the record, I do have loved ones that live in Northern West, Rockland, and CT, so I feel it is my right to be concerned about the the coverage they are recieving. Wether its Fire or EMS.
3. I invite you to listen to the our departments tones and point out flaws. We have some very open-minded chiefs that read this site and would take your objective criticism under consideration. (except JFLYNN -cause he would take it personnal )
4. It has already been pointed out that by this thread that some depts have placed parades and other events above good service.
5. Once everone is trained to same level and there is 1 standard for all, there will only be 1 side. The career vs Vollie arguement will be dead because response times are the same, skills are the same, and most importantly, the public will be better served by US.

Hey KCRD, you write well and you make excellent points...I'm not going to PM you cause I'm having fun trying to guess who you are.
I think it's time we just start ignoring the posts of this particular individual. Let him keep going, he is actually doing a great job of displaying what some of the problems and attitudes are in this particular situation.
Don't worry, people can read and most people on this site are intelligent and reasonable. They (career, volunteer and other) will see the situation and the personalities for what and who they are.
However, let's not stop talking about this very serious issue. I just suggest we just not dignify some of these really off the wall posts and personal posts by engaging in debate.
It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person.

If I came up in your face and consistently asked for the above, I'm willing to bet that you'd tell me exactly where I could go. And who are you to say that anyone other than yourself or members of your own department are providing an inferior service? Are you at every other fire that occurs, critiquing them in the instant moment, or do you rely solely on what you read in an effort to call another department's response and service shoddy? See? This is the exact core of the problem that I raised. Unless you're at every single instance of a fire, which is impossible, then you cannot beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt say that anyone other than yourself provided any kind of service, good or bad.

1.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. He says it, using the word inferior. I raised that issue back at him.
2.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. Again, he uses the word inferior. I substituted the word shoddy in this instance.
3.) Who appointed you, JFlynn, or your respective "boys" the judges and juries with respect to how a department other than your own is doing? Don't you think that's the business of each other departments' Chiefs, Board of Fire Commissioners, Members, and most importantly, residents themselves? Unless you or a loved one lives in a district that you know provides inferior service (again, KCRD's word), why is there the constant gripe about what the volunteers do, their staffing issues, their response times, and all the other bullcrap? I've met paid guys who are worth their salt and I've met volunteers who are worth their salt. Conversely, I've met some paid guys who are pretty useless and I've met some volunteers who are pretty useless. That said, no one can paint the opposing side with a broad brush. And that includes coming on here and demanding to know answers to questions that have been killed ten times over in the past. How would you like it if I listened to 60 one day when you were getting slammed and I came on here to raise questions about YOUR department? I'm pretty sure it would piss you off. And I'm pretty sure it would piss you off if I came on here every third day to talk smack - in general - about your "brothers." We all put the wet stuff on the red stuff, we're all "brothers;" who gives a flying crap what side of the line we're on, and who gives a flying crap about a parade? Don't you think department leadership is responsible enough to maybe perhaps CANCEL their participation in the particular parade if it came to light that their immediate jurisdiction was left short? Nobody ever mentioned that, now did they?

Why did they have to shut down the opposite 2 lanes for a simple upright of a truck? Seems unprofessional to me and a little bit of an outdated technique. Glenns should get a bigger truck. Like the red one on the site here. Nice excavator

So this past weekend was Memorial Day Weekend, and not only does that signify the un-official start of the summer, it's also the un-official start of parade season. I was in two parades yesterday with my EMS squad, one in Freehold, NJ and the other in neighboring Englishtown, NJ. The Freehold parade was nice since it's more or less the Monmouth County parade, and departments from all around the county marched through the center of town (for those not too familiar, Freehold is kind of like Smalltown, USA,) and up past the court house. The Englishtown parade is a little more quaint, as it's a shorter distance and stops at two memorials that lie on the parade route. Personally, I think that parade is nicer since it honors our past and present veterans, and really takes the true meaning of Memorial Day to heart.
However, I saw something yesterday that honestly turned my stomach. I was marching behind a fire department from a neighboring town which is in the next county over. They sent a Chief's car as well as an engine. There were four individuals inside the engine and another four ON THE TOP HOSEBED who were casually drinking Miller Lites as the chauffeur had to cut the truck on an angle several times throughout the parade to avoid hitting such things as tree branches that would have ordinarily cleared the top of the truck but for the fact that there were four idiots riding on top. To make it worse, while there was a small ceremony occurring up front at the first monument, a parade-goer who must have been an acquaintance of someone on the truck, came over with two six-packs, passed one through the window and then gave the other to one of the individuals on top. Now I know that this issue has been raised several times before, and there have been threads about it in the past, but this, to me, is a serious issue. Not only is it an attention grabber to see people riding in a place where you wouldn't ordinarily see them, but it's stupid - not to mention illegal - to consume alcohol in that particular instance. Compounding that, it's disrespectful to the veterans and all the other parade-goers, and I was absolutely appalled, especially since one of the people on the truck tried to justify it by saying that it was "only one can, which is a heck of a lot better than the keg that they wanted to bring."
We all need to have some common sense when we're at a public event like that. We may be members of the community who volunteer or who serve as part of a career or both, but we all must remember that we're driving around in a huge billboard that's owned by the taxpayers, not us. Whatever goes on at the firehouse is our business because that's our place; but whenever we're in public, we represent the public and their intrinsic trust of us as the people who they call in an emergency. And I know I might be ranting a little bit, but I figured that it would be better for me to come on here and vent a bit than to say something to the Chief and put my foot in my mouth.

Insurance data is valuable, but far from a full picture. Homeowner's insurance data does not reflect response to auto accidents, wild fires, searches, wires down, ice storms. In fact, structure fires is a small percentage of what we do.
I am aware of no studies on the subject, but 4 fire fighters will have a hard time handling a running brush fire 1/2 mile from the road or a search for a lost person..... and heaven help the person who actually needs someone to fight fire if they are the second call in district.
No one has made the case that towns are poorly protected if some manpower and apparatus is out of district. As a rule, a team of 4 or 5 individuals who are well trained can handle initial responses. I think the balance of departments can manage that and a parade.
Is there evidence to the contrary? Dare I say it, silence is deafening....

Thank you for not taking this personally and engaging in honest debate.
First, I would like to ask you not to make this thread out as some sort of battle or comparison between career (what you refer to as "paid") and volunteer firefighters / fire departments. It was not intended as such. To elaborate a bit on my problem with you referring to career firefighters as "paid", I would remind you that it is volunteers who often insist on being referred to as professional and I have always understood the point. You most certainly can be professional regardless of whether or not you are a career member. By the same token, you can be unprofessional even if you are doing something as your career. However, career firefighters are not the only firefighters who are paid as we have discussed in the past...many volunteer firefighters accept pay in the way of pensions, tax breaks and many other financial and other benefits.
Again, I appreciate you providing specific information in regard to how the parade issue affestc your department and the public you are sworn to protect and I will take you at your word. However, from what I can tell, this is still a very serious issue with many, if not most, volunteer departments who choose to participate in parades, as attested to by many volunteer firefighters right here on this website.
Also, in just now rereading your post as welll as KCRD's, I am reminded of the importance of there being an adequate response of trained firefighters in the initial stages of a fire. Counting the number of responders who actually showed up at some point during a fire is not really an accurate indicator of the effectiveness of the response. You mentioned several incidents wherein you gave numbers of Firefighters who responded...do you have numbers for the actual number of fully qualified interior firefighters who showed up in, say, the first eight minutes after the original 911 call was made?
I really do appreciate your post. It was a breath of fresh air. However, sometimes things arre really not as they seem. I really do believe that you truly believe that "what we lack in paid (career) performance is more often than not made up for in brute size", I'm just not convinced.

Most places have a signup and it's not like the whole department goes to the parade and leaves their respective district unprotected. What's your beef with Volunteers, anyway?