Alpinerunner

Come on guys be constructive and have some respect for the men and women who lost their lives.
No matter where this accident occured fire companies would have done the best job they were capable of doing.
What is the point of comparing a small department like PM to the FDNY?
How about someone starts a thread educating first responders that read this site that the roof construction of these coach buses are thin sheetmeatal over foam which can easily be cut with a sawsall? Is that information possibly a bit more valuable than most of the nonsense above?

It would appear the real question, instead of hammering one FD here, would be could your own FD handle this incident? Likely, few could have done it alone without seriously compromising efficiency, limbs or lives. It's great that FDNY can and does handle incidents of greater magnitude than the rest of on their own, so well.
So, ask yourself: how would my FD handle tis? Who would we call? Can we all speak on common frequencies? What's the command structure going to look like? Will everyone play nice? We can take all the NIMS mandated course they'll throw at us and go to hundreds of one and two car wrecks, but in the end once it's outside your own resources control and coordination becomes much more difficult, those that do it regularly and train will be far ahead of the rest. And BTW, the public expects the same response FDNY gave anywhere that tour bus goes. Can your FD even come close?

That is correct. A quad has a (1) pump, (2) a water tank, (3) carries hose, and (4) a full compliment of ground ladders. To make a quint, an elevated aerial ladder device is added to the mix.
Quads were very popular from the time of motorization to about the early 1950s since many smaller departments really didn't have the need for an aerial ladder. Before steel aerial ladders were made, practically all aerial ladder trucks were tractor drawn, with a few straight framed aerial ladder trucks in the mix. Aerials prior to the invention of steel aerial devices in the 1930s were made of wood and only had two sections (sometimes but very very rarely three). Quads trace their origins to the old horse drawn city-service ladder trucks equipped with chemical booster equipment. So with motorization, departments that needed a good "ladder truck" and wanted to combine the rig with a pumper, would purchase a quad.
So with that said, just to go a little further for the understanding of the terms, a triple combination pumper back in the days of early motorized fire engines and trucks comprised of three elements, a pump, a set of chemical booster equipment or a booster water tank and carried hose. Prior to motorization, pumpers (steamers and early horse drawn gas pumpers) were separate units from hand drawn and horse drawn hose wagon, carts and booster carts (or the latter two could be combined in a horse drawn unit).

Old Photos of the Retired Elmsford Fire Company Oren / International 750 GPM - 300 gallon Quad.

All I can say to this is timing is everything. Saturday morning and not much else happening in the Bronx. I would sure hope FDNY could get all of those resources to that location. The only thing that your run down doesn't show is the on scene time of ALL of the units. How long does it take to get ALL of the apparatus and manpower on the scene. It was almost at the farthest Northeast point of the Bronx.
You mentioned Pelham Manor FD and what can they do. Back in the early 1980's on a hot Sunday afternoon around 4 PM of the 4th of July weekend, there was a 2 car MCI at almost that exact spot. Actually it was at the turn-a-round about 100 yards east of the bus crash site. There was 9 total patients, of which 4-5 were critical with the remaining patients, none were walking wounded. All patient were boarded. 2 of the critical were in respiratory arrest on the scene. Both from blocked airways. NYSP and NYPD were on scene. New Rochelle Amb 1 was dispatched and was the first unit other than the 1 NYSP unit and the Hwy 1 unit on the scene. Because the accident was in the Bronx, The Hwy 1 unit was advised to have FDNY, and NYC EMS respond to the scene. The HWY 1 unit had already called for emergency services and he advised that NYC had no EMS units available in the Bronx that could respond. A triage unit out of Jacobi was en route. At this point NR Amb 1 requested through NRPD dispatcher that 4-5 additional ambulances were needed. 3 additional ambulances from Westchester were on scene in 10 minutes and while waiting for an update of the ETA of the 4th ambulance, a BLS unit from Misericordia Hospital showed up. All of the Westchester ambulances (4) were ALS. The Bronx unit advised that if they weren't needed they were to become available because there were no other in service units for the entire Bronx.
At this point fire units started to arrive. 2 engines from Pelham Manor. They were asked if FDNY was on the way. They stated that FDNY called them and requested that they respond because no fire units available in the Bronx. Units from Queens were responding.
The triage unit from NYC EMS had the Misericordia unit take the 2 least injured to Jacobi. The triage unit then advised the remaining on scene ambulances that Jacobi can not handle any other patients and to transport the remaining patients to Westchester hospitals. The remaining 7 patients were transported to New Rochelle Hospital.
The total on scene time was less than 25 minutes from arrival of the 1st ambulance till the last patient was transported. At the time that the last patient was removed from the scene, no FDNY fire units were on scene. It is not know if they were still en route from Queens or they were told to go in service.
As I said at the beginning of my comments....."timing is everything"

Now headed south on the Harlem Line. the two BL20GH's are working hard to get up to speed.

Crossing Route 312 in Brewster headed to Grand Central, where it ended up being spit back into three trains. The 110 with three coaches went to Croton Harmon, the #126 and three coaches came back up to Brewtser, and the #222 and 7 coaches went back into passenger service

I don't find this comment funny. You have opened up a can of worms and I expect you to apologize to every police officer. This type of "Humor" is unacceptable. If you have a God complex because you have a set of turnout gear and face smoke and flames then keep it to yourself.
I have spent 20 years on "the streets" in a city police department. During that time I have been shot at, had to face near riots and been injured several times dealing with violent and drunk people. I have had to search for bombs and people with guns.. Funny, I can't ever recall the room entry I had to make being determined too dangerous and we will just wait for the guy to come out. When was the last time you had to tell people that their friends (or worse their child) had died?


Still think you are a hero champ, I never did I did my job and waited for the next call.

It is not my intention to demean the fire service, blow my own horn, or to say one department is braver or better than the other, we all have our jobs to do and we all take risks every time we answer the call, but I am replying to one particular comment. We should take pride in our functions whatever we do and not demean the other services.

Date: 3/9/11
Time: 12:10 hours
Location: Burgher Ave x Richmond Rd
Frequency: FDNY Staten Island
Units Operating: FDNY, FDNY EMS, NYPD ESU, NYPD Highway
Weather Conditions: fair
Description Of Incident: serious MVA between fire apparatus and civilian vehicles with 1 civilian fatality
Reporters/Writer: ryang
News report: http://www.silive.com/eastshore/index.ssf/2011/03/staten_island_crash_between_fi.html
Additional info:
Dongan Hills, Staten Island, NY, 3/9/11
Location: Burgher Ave and Richmond Rd
12:10 hours
NYPD SOD calling ESU for a reported 10-34 involving FD at Burgher Ave and Richmond Rd, reports an unruly crowd forming at the location.
12:10 hours
Box 1441 - L81 involved in a MVA.
E159, TL85
Safety Battalion, Battalion 22 S/C

12:12 hours
L81: Burgher Ave and Richmond Rd, we have a major accident, notify EMS.
Division 8, Rescue 5 S/C

12:12 hours
Battalion 21 available replacing Battalion 22
12:16 hours
L81: Start out another truck and Rescue 5
E159: There is a confirmed pin, have rescue assigned.
12:19 hours
Battalion 21: We do have an accident, extrication in progress, PD and EMS on scene, 2 vehicles involved, at this time we will have at least 3 patients, I'll get back to you with further, k.
12:32 hours
BC21: Can you put E161 on our Box, they're 10-84, they're going to operate as a CFRD engine, k.

12:36 hours
Car 1C (Commissioner's Liaison) is responding

12:40 hours
Car 8 (DAC Michael Marrone, Staten Island Borough Commander) is responding

12:48 hours
Division 8: We're going down to 1 and 1, Rescue will go 10-8 as they become available.
12:49 hours
Car 12A (Executive Officer of Safety/Inspectional Services) is responding
13:30 hours
E166 S/C to relieve E159
Relocations:
E156/161, L84/85

After the last storm over the weekend, and with the impending storm coming over the next few days I got to wondering, how does your department train for water rescues in our area? I heard numerous departments go out for rescues over sunday night and monday morning and never call for a water rescue team. If you've trained to NFPA 1006 and 1670 and are proficient in technical rescues, then obviously this does not apply to you.
Water rescues are an extremely high hazard, with a very low probability of occurrence. They are one of the most dangerous aspects of our job, and one that most of the fire service, unless properly trained in, have very little knowledge and experience in. I know off the top of my head that Elmsford and Yorktown have water rescue teams who are established and train for these types of scenarios on a regular basis. These are highly technical scenes, and just like a high angle rescue, entering a structure fire, or other technical scenarios, should only be preformed by trained personnel.
As an example, yesterday a department was dispatched to a water rescue. The medics, who arrived on scene moments before the water rescue team did, wanted to drive their Fly Car out to the victim, who was on the hood of his car which was submerged in water, pick him up, and reverse back to dry land. Yes, this idea actually occured, however the IC put a stop to it and sent the water rescue team in to retrieve the victim.
Ideas like this are bound to get an emergency service worker injured or killed at an incident like this. NIOSH, just released a report about a volunteer who was wearing the wrong PPE at a water rescue and subsequently was swept away in frigged water, drowned, and was found 4 days later down stream. ( http://www.firefight...y/newsid/130974) There are numerous resources around the county which can assist you at your incident and do so without endangering the lives of untrained firefighters. Your best best is to call them out on dispatch, and turn them around if you really do not need them.

FDNY rescue companies were originally formed to rescue firemen, not civilians, in the time when NYC was burning down. No need to get all worked up, both agencies play their part in the "rescue world". I'd rather be able to work alongside a talented group of rescue specialists from any agency (PD/FD/EMS). We should start striving to learn from eachother rather then be at eachothers throats over childish nonsense.

If you are hurt in the line of duty your health care costs are covered. You can also collect workman's comp. At least that's the case in my dept, and I'm pretty sure that's common.

Here are some varied truck company bumpers that I have photographed. Most quints have a trash line on the front bumper.
Dallas, TX:

Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport (Quint):

Austin, TX Quint 27

Dallas TX (Reserve truck being disposed of):

Round Rock FD Quint 4:

Houston, TX Truck 28:

Fort Worth, TX Quint 33:

Ardsley FD's Former Quint 1:

Stamford FD at the time Truck 2:

57-Truck:

Verplank Bronto:

White Plains Ladder 32:

Noroton Heights, CT

LAFD Tiller:

Yonkers FD Truck:

New Rochelle Ladder 12:

http://www.strikethebox.com/tattoo

I was waiting for someone to post something on this. Great post. I have been in the fire service for 24 years, 15 as a career firefighter. I started out as a volunteer at 17. My family life was pretty f***ed and with no direaction I joined the firehouse. Lucky for me back then they taught me all about the brotherhood. I try to teach it in my classes as a SFI in NY. Some of you are right where did it go. A LT on my job said the other day that wearing the uniform is a right you have to earn. I just had a conversation today with a good friend of mine who just got hired. I said to him welcome to the BROTHERHOOD. That means if you ever need anything, break down, get lost, or are in trouble you will have help before you know it. You walk into any firehouse anywhere and you are welcome. Our IAFF sticker is almost like the USMC sticker. I am not knocking volunteers, I think for career firefighters the IAFF sticker is special. I would welcome any volunteer into my firehouse and go out of my way to help them. I remember where I started.
You are right the yonger generation is all about whats good for me.Ball busting is ballbusting and it haves its place. If you are going to be a complete A-Hole to someone all the time you can't excpect them to respect you. Good Post

From a criminal investigation perspective, this is fairly inexcusable. Anyone facing charges of this nature who has ties to a foreign nation wouldn't ordinarily be left so "free" top do so.

Today’s Special Anniversary
When the New York City newspapers were delivered to the New Rochelle train station on the morning of March 4th, 1861 the front page news was that today was the inauguration of Abraham Lincoln as the 16th President of the United States.
Washington D.C was a long way off and New Rochelle had not supported Lincoln and there was important business in the Village of New Rochelle. The Village Board was to meet today to consider a petition to appropriate $400 to purchase New Rochelle’s first fire truck, $800 to erect or procure its first fire house and appointed 29 men as volunteer firemen to protect the 3,500 residence of the growing Village of New Rochelle. The New Rochelle Fire Department was born.
The Village of New Rochelle Fire Department’s first company became known as the Enterprise Hook and Ladder and Bucket Company #1. Not to be out done by the Village, two week later the Town of New Rochelle formed its first fire department. Much of the early records talk about how the two departments competed in races up and down Main Street to prove who was fastest.
On September 2, 1867 the Huguenot Hook and Ladder Company became the Huguenot Fire Company #1 with the Fire Departments first Engine, or Pump. Prior to this, the fire department’s only ability to extinguish fire was using buckets. That first engine was first used by the NYC Volunteer Fire Department and was obtained at the cost of a whopping $1,500.
In 1882 the department received it s first fire bell and placed it on the new Huguenot Fire House on Lawton Street (now the library parking lot). The Building later burned to the ground but the bell was saved and reused. Today the bell is a memorial to fallen Firefighters and is in front of Station #1 on Harrison Street. In 1885 the department purchased its first steam-powered pumper to augment the hand-powered one.
In 1899 the Town and Village of New Rochelle merged to become the City of New Rochelle. The Fire Department was forced to consolidate as well and became the Fire Department of the City of New Rochelle.
On March 4th 1901 the department hired William Rinck, making him the first paid fireman. Additional paid firefighters were added each year and on May 1st 1903 Chief Ross became the first paid fire chief. He had served as volunteer chief starting on July 16, 1889.
The City continued to grow and the Fire Department grew with it, adding new apparatus, fire stations and paid firefighters. In 1920 Chief Jones reported the department had its busiest year in its history as the firemen had responded to 200 alarms that year. On May 13, 1927 at the recommendation of the Chamber of Commerce, City disbanded the Fire Department volunteers The reason stated was to improve the fire insurance rating, thus reducing insurance premiums. This professional system is still in place today.
Over the decades as the City has grown, the fire department has kept pace, adding new technologies such as horseless pumpers, tower ladders, the Jaws of Life and computers. The fleet and the stations have been and continue to require upgrading. New neighborhoods particularly in the north end required protection, and stations were replaced to provide room for development. The Fire Department has been challenged in many ways, and early firefighters would be shocked to learn that number of calls for help has exceeded 9,000 annually.
During these years New Rochelle Fire Department has responded to many emergencies small and great, the most notable earliest one being in 1875. The Ferguson’s Grocery and Feed store Fire on Main Street, took much of the downtown shopping district. Ferguson rebuilt it (this time of brick) and on November 5th 1890 it burned again. The second fire was worse than the first with mutual aid needed to save the Village. Larchmont, Pelham, Mt. Vernon came along with Port Chester who placed their hand engine on a railroad flat car to get to Lawton and main within 25 minutes. The Rye Fire Department arrived later, having pulled their pumper down the post road.
Firefighting remains one of the most dangerous professions. Many firefighters have been injured, some critically, and six New Rochelle Fire Fighters have made Supreme Sacrifice. May they Rest in Peace. They gave their all for New Rochelle.
Many things have changed in New Rochelle in the 150 years since March 4th 1861. But the one true constant is that when someone needs help the New Rochelle Fire Department will be there in minutes and that is something that the citizens can always count on. Over the upcoming months, the department will celebrate their legacy and century and a half of service with a number of special events and displays.

I disagree that there is an age or mileage at which a vehicle is unsafe or unreliable. If you do proper inspections and preventative maintentance, and check the chassis for rust, a vehicle can be safe and reliable indefinitely. The issue, of course, becomes economics.

Personally I believe placing a standard, be it 5 years, 10 years, 50,000 miles or 100,000 miles is not truly effective or practical. Whenever you paint with such a broad brush you do not have clear, concise and effective legislation. Best example is the law that sympathomedic quotes. While a 10 year old bus may not be the best or first choice for an emergency service as a "new" first line vehicle it might very well suffice as a interfacility transport vehicle for non-emergent/non-critical patients. A 3 to 4 year old bus run 24 /7 in a high volume high mileage environment with over 100K in mileage may not be fit for a coffee run nevertheless being registered as an ambulance. I think standards aside, maintenance, mileage, and conditions of operation need to be made on a case by case basis with standards as a guide not a steadfast rule.

Some ice KO'd a woman in Stamford this winter. A truck company responded and took down what else they could.

Here are a few pictures that I took at the working house fire in Armonk on 3/02/2011. The has multiple tankers and other M/A on location.

Awesome pics everyone. I used up all my rep points.

Interior crew bailing out the front fire excape 2nd floor when they where cut off from the interior starcase, Eng 58 down to half of tank!

Very close to the building's next door, only 18 inchs between them both side's

Photos By Beachbum


M/A Engine from Town Of Mamaroneck

Photos by Beachbum

Valhalla Fire District - mid 1980's , House Fire - 83 Overlook Drive. Photos By MS

Valhalla Engine 83 arrives on scene.