bad box

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Posts posted by bad box

  3. Posted

    36 years ago today, at approximately 9:20 AM six heroic F.D.N.Y. Firemen were killed in the line of duty when the roof of the burning Waldbaum's Supermarket they were operating on collapsed. Please take a moment today to remember these heroic Firemen and their families:

    • Lt. James E. Cutillo, Battalion 33

    • Firefighter Charles S. Bouton, Ladder Company 156

    • Firefighter Harold F. Hastings, Battalion 42

    • Firefighter James P. McManus, Ladder Company 153

    • Firefighter William O’Connor, Ladder Company 156

    • Firefighter George S. Rice, Ladder Company 153

    Rest in peace Brothers, you will never be forgotten...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTzBg1YIZmI

    sueg likes this

  5. Posted

    When I was there we had 2 sections that forced the comparison:

    1) Extrication. FDNY was just adding tools to ladder companies so they wanted to review procedures that some of the FDNY LT's had not practiced since probie school 10-15 years prior. So we di side by side cars. They worked on basic door pops, while the instructors told us to do what ever we wanted as they new we all did more extrication than any of the instructors. So we flipped one car on its roof & another on its side and had fun.

    2) Floor above victim search in a tenement. This was EXCELLENT. 3 member teams sent to search for up to 6 members of a family missing on the floor above. 20 teams (15 FDNY teams, 5 "upstate teams), I was teamed with 2 members from Illion, NY. The apt. we searched was fully furnished, including bedding and clothing and empty bottles on the table. The walls were only 1/2 height and the instructors had platforms above so they could see & film our searches. at about the 10 minute mark the radio would advise that the engine on the fire floor lost water and we needed to get out. As we were evacuating we heard a pass alarm from the back of the apt. (we were previously advised that the OV from another truck was back there). We had another 3 minutes to find him and get out before the apt. "flashed".

    What was most interesting as we watched the 20 teams on video we found the "Upstate" teams averaged finding 3 of the victims and the OV, plus the team got out before the apt. flashed. The FDNY teams found all 6 victims and the OV, but all 15 search teams and all victims were killed when the apt flashed.

    Wow, the FDNY group must have been quite a collection of misfits. You were light years ahead of even the instructors in vehicle extrication and all of the FDNY guys failed the search course while you rescued 3 civilians and a downed FF. while getting yourself out safely also. I can only imagine that the entire FDNY crew were demoted or sent back through probie school after you graduated.

  8. Posted

    Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

    The video only shows EMS personnel with the patient for a short time, but EMT's and Paramedics have protocols that they must follow immediately upon reaching the side of a patient (once they have assured the scene is safe). Most or all of the initial steps that should have been taken were not.

  12. Posted

    Several commissioners were voted out of office and the attorney for the fire district was let go. I've heard that members of a local political party club who also happen to be life long residents from the days before the community was significantly built up and modernized, decided that they didn't want the former commissioners to provide the things that were needed to allow for operation of a properly equipped, well trained, professional volunteer fire company. So they went door to door and ran a campaign of lies. They brought out enough misinformed folks to vote for the candidates that the political club wanted on the board. Now these newly elected folks (who appear to have no fire service knowledge and who have no interest in listening to and abiding by what the fire chief is telling them) are making decisions based solely upon seeking vengeance. Their mission appears to be to undo all of the good that the previous board did. If these commissioners are permitted to continue their misguided mission, at the very least it wouldn't surprise me to see the membership of the department stop volunteering and at the worst people may be placed in danger due to their V.F.D. being improperly equipped. Really a senseless and sad situation. It's terrible when politics are permitted to interfere with the mission of an emergency service.

    x635 likes this

  13. Posted

    Statistically firefighting isn't even close. Not to say its not dangerous but lets face it, you're not running in to burning buildings everyday.

    We did when I was on the job ... Frequently it occurred several times or more per shift. And Firefighters are at risk in many other types of circumstances in addition to entering burning buildings. I'm not saying who has the most dangerous occupation, just stating some facts.

  14. Posted

    Reposting something I put on another forum about this topic with a few additions.

    While they certainly acted outside their scope of training and equipment, the NYPD Housing Bureau environment isn't like anything we have here in CT. Unless I'm mistaken, most NYPD Housing beats cover a few buildings, those floors are where they patrol. Its not like they flew halfway across Brooklyn, parked their car in front of the hydrant and ran up, these Officers spend their whole shifts in these high-rises. Was taking the elevator a poor decision? I think the answer to that is obvious. But there's another issue at play here.

    It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the fire service who are quick to excoriate a couple of Police Officers trying to do something to help the people in their beat, but some of those same people have nothing negative to say when Bubba rolls the tanker over doing 90MPH to an Activated Fire Alarm and neither him nor the guy in the right seat were wearing seat-belts. And why not? Because its out of respect for the families and the department affected.

    My point is, members of our service have made our share of missteps, mistakes and/or plain old bad decisions from time to time, but we don't drag people through the mud. We wait until we know the facts and we show respect for those trying to bury their lost before we start picking things apart. Why don't P.O.s Guerra and Rodriguez get the same courtesy? We're on the same team here, folks.

    As someone else stated, the NYPD Commissioner has identified a training gap and has stated publicly that they are going to work to improve it to prevent further injuries or Line of Duty Deaths. Which is more than some Fire Departments can say...

    My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Guerra's family and his Brothers and Sisters in the NYPD. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for Officer Rodriguez as well.

    This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

    Capejake72, TimesUp, FirNaTine and 4 others like this

  15. Posted · Edited by bad box

    How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).

    What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?

    In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

    The words of a responding Police Officer at approximately 6:57 on the audio says it all, "Why are you sending PD in there if it's a fire?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM For everyone who is posting as if the injured and deceased police officers' actions are being questioned, please take a breath and understand that it's realized and respected that these officers were brave in their efforts to do what they thought was appropriate. Their sacrifice (as well as that of their families) is immense. What's troubling to me as a firefighter is that the NYPD has never trained their personnel in the proper actions to take or not take at a fire scene. The department is 100% guilty of placing its personnel in grave danger every-time they dispatch them to a 911 call reporting a building fire. PO's are motivated public servants who are going to take action when they respond to any incident. If there is no formal training and no official department guidelines for actions at a fire incident, these motivated, well meaning personnel are likely to end up in a place they shouldn't be, taking actions that may cause harm to themselves, civilians as well as responding firefighters. Hopefully Commissioner Bratton now understands that a police officer shouldn't be dispatched to confront a burning building anymore than a firefighter should be dispatched to confront a perp with a gun. Sadly, it is now time to mourn a deceased hero...

    PEMO3 and Bnechis like this

  16. Posted

    Sadly, it was just reported that 1 of the Officers has passed away. A terrible price to pay, leaving a wife and four young children without a Father. I truly hope the NYPD implements SOP's that protect responding Officer's in the future to prevent this from happening again. While their efforts were certainly valiant, the outcome was tragic. Proper training for Police Officers to effectively evaluate the location, severity and potential victims effected and relayed to responding FD units can be of tremendous value and drastically enhance the success of the operation for all involved. My prayers for the Officer's family and for the second Officer's full recovery.

    May Police Officer Guerra rest in peace. Condolences to his family and fellow officers. Let us hope that this is the last time that a member of the NYPD is placed in this type of situation. From the NY Times: "After the fire Sunday, the Police Department began reviewing how officers respond to such conditions. Mr. Bratton said on Tuesday that no precise guidelines existed for approaching fires on high floors of buildings, and said the “policy deficiency” would be quickly corrected."

  17. Posted

    Having responded to jobs in the projects before, it is no where near out of the realm of possibility (and I would speculate rather likely) that this job was communicated to the housing officers as an EDP, DI or other any other disturbance that they routinely handle.

    Unless you have specific and well informed knowledge about *THIS* specific incident I wouldn't dive straight to a soap box...

    The officers were dispatched via radio to a 911 call reporting a "10-59 of a residence" (10-59 = fire) on the 13th of a residential high rise building. Upon their arrival, the police officers reported smoke coming from the windows of the building. This is the audio of the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM

  18. Posted

    I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".

    You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?

    They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.

    You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?

    The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.

    Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

    Dispatching law enforcement personnel to building fires for the purpose of entering an IDLH atmosphere and conducting a search is playing Russian roulette with the LEO's lives. Just as common sense tells us not to dispatch firefighters to crimes in progress for the purpose of taking police action due to the obvious extreme danger to firefighters as they are not trained or equipped for such action, law enforcement personnel should not be placed in harm's way inside a burning building. I feel for the injured officers and their families. The officers acted bravely but should never have been placed in a situation such as this by their department to begin with. I am amazed that any law enforcement officer would agree with placing his brothers and sisters in situations that they are neither trained or equipped to handle. An appropriate way of honoring the two injured PO's would be for the police commissioner to immediately institute an SOP for response to and actions to be taken at fire scenes by police officers. The main theme should be police officer safety. God bless the two injured PO's and let this be the last time such a tragedy is permitted to occur.

    lad12derff likes this

  19. Posted

    F.D.N.Y. Rescue Companies responded to and operated at two dive jobs overnight in very close proximity to each other in Queens. Both jobs involved occupied automobiles that left the roadway and landed upside down in the water.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/car-filled-people-drives-creek-queens-article-1.1746537

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/suv-plunges-east-river-blocks-fatal-creek-accident-article-1.1746639

    x635 likes this

  23. Posted · Edited by bad box

    One might think that... But one doesn't know the location of the civilians in the building and how far into the rapidly deteriorating conditions the officers pushed themselves to ensure everyone else was out. One might also be glad that their injuries were relatively minor compared to what they could have been given the situation.

    I'd say helluva job boys...

    As far as I know, the YFD has an excellent average response time, so unless there was a delayed alarm to the F.D. for some reason, it's highly unlikely that any non F.D. personnel were subjected to rapidly deteriorating conditions while pushing themselves beyond the abilities of mortal men as they should only have been on the scene for a few minutes prior to F.D. arrival.... BTW, I too am pleased that the PO's weren't seriously injured.

  24. Posted

    "Everyone left the three buildings safely, McCormack said. But, (the 2 police officers) were both injured. Both had to be taken to a local hospital for treatment for smoke inhallation also. None of the occupants of the building or the pets was injured, Sherwin said." One would think that if the PO's suffered smoke inhalation, the people who they reportedly removed from the burning house certainly would have been subjected to the smoke for a much longer period of time than the PO's yet none of the civilians required treatment.

  25. Posted

    I hope the community understands the real issue, they and 4 neighboring communities can not get an ambulance out to save a 4 y/o.

    It really is time to regionalize and insure coverage.

    I strongly advocate that communities start putting the same price (or higher) on human life that they put on education, road repair, trash pick up, elected community leadership, librarys, law enforcement, etc.. I'd much rather see a county wide career fire, rescue, EMS system (supplimented by volunteers if available) rather than individual volunteer departments with the ever present (potentially life threatening) issue of inability to respond promptly (or at alll) depending upon time of day, day of week, type of call, etc..

    BFD1054, Bottom of Da Hill and Remember585 like this