bad box

I agree that the spin on the story through the media would be upsetting to a lot of the citizens. Too bad response logs, duty rosters and training attendance logs can't be made public. If the citizens of many communities were made aware of how often their volunteer EMS was unstaffed/understaffed, I'm sure there would be quite an outcry.

I think there are far more unprofessional things on the radio. Like, third tones for a crew... An EMT is needed....
XXXX on scene, working fire, retone for all available personnel...

I don't honestly buy that this rig is overweight for its braking system. I'll nearly guarantee that it has vented discs at all four corners that have more than double the stopping power of older drum style brakes that were the norm until the '90's and that were spec'd for the weight rating of the axle that they are attached to. If the truck were under spec'd from a braking standpoint, it would most likely by under spec'd from a suspension and axle standpoint as well, and there is no mention of that thus far.
This being said, can modern brake systems be cooked? Absolutely. But whether its a fire truck, big rig, or a race car, it's due to how the operator is driving the vehicle the vast majority of the time not the braking system. I'm unfamiliar with the mountainous road that was referenced before, but I'm willing to bet that it's not the first time this rig or any of the other rigs in the department have descended it. Starting at the top of the hill at a safe speed and utilizing the transmission and engine (Jake) brake along with the braking system should result in a controlled and safe descent. Most apparatus operators today simply leave the transmission selector in "drive" and never utilize the lower gear ratios to control the vehicle. The advent of tougher emissions controls and fuel standards has also brought forth the "free wheeling" concept, where when a rig is in high gear and coasting, that the transmission freewheels and thus the engine is not available to provide compression braking, nor is the engine brake functioning. The only way around this is in many cases is to select a lower gear that will not permit the transmission to freewheel.
Regardless, from the outside looking in, there appears to be more political motivation with this decision than concern for the roads and vehicle safety.

Several commissioners were voted out of office and the attorney for the fire district was let go. I've heard that members of a local political party club who also happen to be life long residents from the days before the community was significantly built up and modernized, decided that they didn't want the former commissioners to provide the things that were needed to allow for operation of a properly equipped, well trained, professional volunteer fire company. So they went door to door and ran a campaign of lies. They brought out enough misinformed folks to vote for the candidates that the political club wanted on the board. Now these newly elected folks (who appear to have no fire service knowledge and who have no interest in listening to and abiding by what the fire chief is telling them) are making decisions based solely upon seeking vengeance. Their mission appears to be to undo all of the good that the previous board did. If these commissioners are permitted to continue their misguided mission, at the very least it wouldn't surprise me to see the membership of the department stop volunteering and at the worst people may be placed in danger due to their V.F.D. being improperly equipped. Really a senseless and sad situation. It's terrible when politics are permitted to interfere with the mission of an emergency service.

ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO my parents made the rule with me when i was still in high school and a full active member at the firehouse. no late calls on a school night. the pager was off. i wish i did this when i was in college and a member of the ambulance corps there. my grades would have been better. Education is why you are there you are a better responder with knowing more. just like you can't respond when your in fire fighter 1 class.

If they're still in High School, that should be their priority. EVERYTHING comes second to them completing their education (figuring out those pesky pump calculations is much more difficult without simple Math)-- yea, I'm stretching that reasoning a little bit, but I think we see the point.
I think the department should be commended for this!!! The higher ups seem to be leading this young, impressionable minions along the correct path. This path means that there are bigger things than coming down for "big one" (let's face it, we've all missed the "big one" at one point or another).
I don't think you see it right now, but I hope you will, but it seems like this department is saying "I want your help, I need your help, but I don't need it THAT much, you do what you need to do, and that means finish school, we've got this"
Kudos!

The more important issue that needs to be focused on is if these young adults want go on to a career in emergency services they are going to need a HS diploma with a decent GPA because most promotions now look for college credits. If they are looking in other directions and being a volunteer is just for the "volunteer" section of the college app then they still need to focus on that GPA. A side from that if they are content on practicing the line "do you want fries with that?" then by all mean stay out all night seven nights a week. What needs to be understood is these "unfair" rules are being "imposed" by a group of well seasoned adults that "have been there, done that" and trying to provide guidance that to a young mind can appear to be restriction.

I am posting only one more comment and then I am done with this topic.
If 7 out of the 17 FF's you are referring to as responding are High School students, then your department is in big trouble.
I am not knocking HS age FF's, that's when I got my start.

Please don't compare serving in the military with being a volunteer FF. There is no comparison at all.

That is true, but 18 year olds in the military have to finish high school before they can serve. Also being in the military is a career, volunteer FD is not. While they are making a great sacrifice, it also helps them put their lives in order. Trying to balance finishing high school with a VFD can be very distracting, and I don't see how anyone these days cannot agree education should come first. I can't speak for all volunteer departments, but I'd have to say from what I've seen more departments suffer from their older members saying "well I have work in the morning, can't go." rather than their high schoolers not showing up.

Regardless of who dictated the policy I agree with it...school is first.

Its sad that in the year 2014 some emergency services in the United States still depend on teenagers in high school......

Our department has had such a policy for many years. In addition to the hours junior members are allowed at the firehouse, they are also prohibited from responding to calls outside the district, have to meet academic requirements, and their membership is subject to parental consent until they graduate or are otherwise considered to be emancipated.
Although I am not positive, the hours on school nights may be due to child labor laws.

The solution has been stated here multiple times now, and I feel like you're not getting the answer you're looking for.
There is a much bigger issue going on in your department then having the policy put into place. It stems from the irresponsible nature of your department allowing itself to, from your words, rely fully on 18 year old (EightTEEN) students in high school to supply your town with emergency services.
If your department (FD or EMS) cannot get a well staffed rig with well qualified individuals on the road after the first page, then you should be thinking about career staffing, or other means to supply emergency services to the people who have entrusted you with their lives. Paging out 2-3-4 times is ludicrous, and endangers the entire community; plus it makes you look/sound like a a bunch of yahoos morons who cant get a rig out to your surrounding fire departments. There should be a 1 page, 4 minute rule, period. Can't get out? K, the next closet department is getting dispatched.

If high school students are the difference between life and death in your department, there are problems well beyond the topic at hand. Bottom line is students are students and that should be there priority.
What happens if you sleep through the automatic alarm that turns out to be the serious fire? The job is the job, regardless of dispatch information.

Kids in High school belong in bed well rested for the school day. They don't need the added stress of responding to emergencies, nor do they need the distraction. If your dept. relies on 18 year olds in school, then they're in trouble.....

School rules before FD rules for students who have yet to graduate from high school.
If the FD is that dependent on FF's who are still in high school, then the FD bears responsibility to find itself some qualified people who are beyond high school. The school is not cutting into the FD's resources; the FD placed too many eggs in one basket.

I think that before you take to the keyboard you should get the facts. You make quite a serious allegation of your department being influenced by an outside source, do you know this to be true? Question these types of things in house before going to the all mighty internet.
Now as far as the policy, good job! They are kids in school. Schooling is required for a job, a job is required to feed a family. I don't think my volunteer department had ever bought dinner for my kids.

According to the way your post reads, the local Fire Department implemented the policy, not the school.

When was the last time you told the dispatcher your company wasn't responding becacuse of weather conditions? Almost all of those other jobs can be suspended when weather condition are unfavorable.
Think about when material is falling off a highrise in the middle of the night or a sand hog is trapped in the hole who is the first on the scene to help. All these jobs are important Working together we all can make this a better world.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.