SmokeyJoe

As always, the good captain is right on target. Good point, B!

Rest in peace brother. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

Let's see what happens when one of these politicians house burns down. Odds are they'll be singing a different tune

I'm still wondering why these clowns haven't gotten a few new ones ripped by the state for heaven knows what shenanigans they have pulled. I did have an interesting experience recently while driving into work. I'm coming off of 17 and onto the Thruway at Woodbury or Harriman, or whatever that toll booth is. I see a bus behind me, L&S. I don't think anything of it, and happily herp a derp my way down the Thruway. I see the bus in my rear view, still responding to whatever. I still don't think anything of it. They finally pass me at the TZ and that's when I see the Hatzolah markings. I catch up to them somewhere in Yonkers, and follow them all the way into the city. Mind you, this is what, 40, 50 miles?? I see them getting off the Deegan at Van Cortlandt Park South. The first thought that went through my mind was, "What, they don't have a bus available in Riverdale.??? Such a thing.

Shocking, no one is willing to stand up, its sickening the rest of the public abides by the laws and gets screwed and they get it dismissed!

The tickets have since been dismissed. Not much of a story there

Sure, right after you explain to me what the hell that post has to do with anything we've been talking about.
I have to say, Nick's website provides an incredibly detailed explanation of his side of the story. Taking what he says at face value, because I haven't seen any explanation from IVFD, it sounds like he makes a great point. If all you want to do is respond to calls, why do you have to join both of these organizations and not just the Firematic side?

Have we set a record yet? This has gotta be the longest thread ever.
Let's just just merge the districts into SFRD and be done with it. Enuf!

Have we set a record yet? This has gotta be the longest thread ever.
Let's just just merge the districts into SFRD and be done with it. Enuf!

Very good points. It sounds like there is a real problem that has not yet been fixed. Where was the chief in all of this?

The Patch has posted an update to its original article:
http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/comments-on-earlier-story-spark-further-debate-about-irvington-fd
This issue is not unique to Irvington, nor to Westchester. It is time to fix what is broken: these companies and departments can no longer operate without proper leadership or accountability. Something is wrong when a guy like Nick is harassed and driven out of town rather than promoted. This law requiring a member to join both company and department needs to be updated.
Too bad they don't spend as much time energy or money on training!

Maybe some one can clear this up for me? Who's in charge when you have two parallel organizations that cover the same membership? I'm pretty certain that on my job, not only would the person responsible for harassing another be disciplined but any or all of those officers whom granted tacit approval by their failure to enforce policy, laws and rules would also be disciplined. This is another example of a significant difference between career and non-career FD's. While I'm sure some non-career dept's provide supervisory training, my guess is that far less actually do and a percentage of those that do give the bare minimum, while some career FD's may follow the same, many (most I'm familiar with) require far more supervisory training and testing. This makes it clear who's required to do what and eliminates the "we didn't know" excuses.
Point of order: while I've had countless hours or supervisory practices, sensitivity training, diversity training, legal issues for supervisors, etc, etc, ad nauseum, when it comes right down to it, I already knew what was right and what was wrong as I'm sure most of us do, those that don't should not be given authority over anyone.

I guess that is probably part of what will be reviewed. When North Hudson Rergiona Fire & Rexcue was created in NJ, they absorbed at least on FD w/vollies (Town of Guttenburg, I think?). I would look to see how they handled the process.

According to my sources it is Pelham & PM

What is sad is that it is guys like Nick that are the best hope for VFDs like Irvington but they keep driving the good guys away. Whata shame.

What is sad is that it is guys like Nick that are the best hope for VFDs like Irvington but they keep driving the good guys away. Whata shame.

Amen brother

Very Well!Said. Now consider I wrote this in the IFD thread (some one said the state sets the standard): "FASNY has always complained that the training requiremens are too much, so OFPC reduced the number of hours in the FF1 class. OFPC for 20 years said it took at least 15 hours to teach the NYS and Federally mandated Hazmat Operations course. When the current FF1 class came out the kept the 15 hours of material and only allow for 3 hours to cover it. Since NYS Law says all firefighters (not vol, not career, not interior, not exterior, but ALL Firefighters) must be certified by their employer (and the courts have ruled that VFD's are employer for this) prior to responding to ANY Calls. So if you only follow NYS and your members have not had at least another 12 hours (inhouse) they are in violation of the law."
When I was told to cover 15 hours of material in 3 hours, I said this was just wrong and someone was going to get hurt, killed or a stupid error with hazmat could wipe out a dept or a community (look up the Summerville MA incident, where they kept putting more and more water on the product, until the whole area needed to be evacuated). I was then told I could teach the 15 hours as a stand alone course, but we could not include it in the FF1.
With the current number of hours in FF1 are they covering building construction? Its one of the big killers of firefighters. More detail can be found in the Hackensack LODD thread.
If NYS will not even teach to the level that is required by NYS Law, how can we expect qualified firefighters?

I don't think that Chief Flynn hates volunteers necessarily.
I believe that he expects firefighters and fire departments to be responsible and accountable for their actions. I think he doesn't think that we should accept BS excuses why volunteer agencies shouldn't be held to high standard of professionalism. I think he believes that fire departments should have a certain degree of transparency to the citizens they protect. I think he believes that firefighters should be properly trained and equipped to do the job and should be willing to do ALL of the parts of their job, not just the glamorous parts.
And I think I agree.

I kind of look at this like fingerprinting teachers or random drug testing: if you have nothing to hide, then broad-brush allegations likely don't affect you. As a member of a VFD starting out, I can honestly say we wouldn't have cared about comments that seem to paint most VFD's in poor light as we'd have been certain that we could prove that we were above that, please ask to see the books, we'd love for anyone to take any interest at all.
Those who protest maybe feel slightly embarrassed to be part of an organization that while providing a valuable service cannot be totally open due to the "perks"?
I generally could care less about broad brush anti-career statements for similar reasons, ask us we'll show you anything, please prove us wrong, show us how to be more efficient while providing better service and maintaining a margin of safety for our personnel. These days we (career folk) may be slightly less impervious to negative comments given the nearly all out assault on public employees. If we thought our departments could be scritinized singularly we'd not care, but it appears the perceived financial situation has people making brash decision based on half-truths, and as long as it costs less, they're willing to ignore all the facts. To this end I've yet to see VFD's nationwide be subjected to such scrutiny from the mass public, so no it isn't the same.
So go ahead tell us we're fleecing the public with pensions, sick-outs, padded OT, details, joyriding in public vehicles and sitting on our a$$es while being paid, I know I don't care as any reasonable investigation into any allegation will reveal this to be false. Now if you can't say the same about your own FD, volunteer or career, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate priorities?

Last time I bought a live Christmass Tree I bought it from a volunteer fire department. With my purchase they gave me a sheet of paper and the paper stated was filled with all out lies and half truths. The paper stated the orginization relied completely on donations (Actually the orginization recieves tax dollars to rent their firehouse to the district). The paper also stated the orginization relied on donations to operate and failed to mention that all apparatus, equipment, and training was provided through tax money. This is not an isolated situation I have seen this in two other departments.
Please spare me the entitlement complex "I get up at 3 AM so I deserve free beer and a trip to Lake George" that should have disappeared the moment that LOSAP was passed.
I have stated before there are plenty of well run non career departments but probably not many in NYS. I won't call them volunteer because they are paid on call and municipally run without the interference of a social orginization.

Once again Cap is spot on, its easy to put a sticker on your helmet that says "Never Forget," its quite another to actually remember.

I remeber we were sitting in the Fire House Kitchen when the news of the fire broke and live fotage was interupting whatever was on. We all said: "They do not realize that they are operating at a bowstring truss". We could see it on the news 10-15 minutes before the collapse.
I hate to say it but, the majority of the fire service has already forgotten this or never learned the leason of this fire (and others).
If we allow our firefighters to respond to and enter structures without understanding the hazards of different construction, we have forgotten.
If we fail to utilize proper communications (including seperate fireground and dispatch) systems, we have forgotten.
If we fail to have enough firefighters during the early stages of a fire and enough in reserve (FAST & Stagging), we have forgotten.
If we fail to regularly inspect (and preplan) structures and allow illegal and dangerious practices to continue, we have forgotten.
When span of control is exceded and ICS not utilized, IC get overloaded and can not protect the members, we have forgotten.

The above conditions still occur in many departments and we will again have another incident that we "Will Never Forget".
Does your minimum training include; building construction for the fire service?
Does your dept. know its district and the hazards in it? If you do not do inspections/preplans, than the answer is NO.
Do you have proper communications (every LODD report says most do not)?
Do you have enough staff, early enough and trained properly?
Do you have properly trained staff, with the resources to command and properly run a firefight.
I keep fighting this fight, because I do remember.
"Let no man's ghost return to say: MY Training Let Me Down"

The chief has an excellent point. My former VFD held an annual fund drive every year and that money was divided amongst the companies. None of the donors knew where this money was going but I'm sure the majority thought it was operations. I have no qualms with the way my company spent its money and would have been confident opening the books to the public.
How many others can say the same? Do you think the average tax payer would really be OK sending their volleys to lake george for a weekend? Buying food for a drill or taking your members out for a reasonable annual dinner are fair reward. Sending them somewhere for pertinent training not available locally great idea. Providing a lounge, bunkroom, kitchen, or gym all can be reasonable and justifiable. 50" plasma with movie theater seating and a viking commercial kitchen kind of excessive. If you think the Chief is picking on volleys open your books up to the public. Next time you're raising money include a break down last years expenditures.

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:
http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc