LayTheLine

I have a friend who is a school bus driver and school bus driver instructor - that's what got me started with this thread.
 
antiquefirelt - As a point of interest, the back emergency door can be opened from outside. But you bring up a good point of how to manage everything when it's one adult and especially 30 grade school kids!! This is the biggest challenge for bus drivers and from what my friend tells me, a lot more time is spent in their training on walking through how to evacuate a bus full of grade school kids, although they still go over evacuation for middle school & high school in training. I've attached two videos, each about 5 minutes long. The first one is a video that she shows to new candidate drivers as an introduction to safety and evacuation. The second one is a video made for the kids. They show it every year to 5th, 7th and 9th graders early in the school year. They don't show it to grade school kids as they don't want to frighten the kids and a lot of the stuff they're talking about (reaching certain handles) the little kids couldn't reach anyhow. So it's been thought through and hopefully the kids have been executed should you pull up on any school bus emergency.
 
For new drivers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5aZwsGm8M
 
For students (a little corny but it could save lives!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbld-7QJ7s
 

While I think most would agree specialty tools like the Navy Nozzle, bayonet nozzles, or Bresdan Distributors have a place on apparatus, their uses are for a specific set of circumstances. In this case, even if you felt it was not safe to enter the bus, the rear door would have made an easy access point for a normal firestream. 
 
On evacuating the bus, does anyone know the procedure the drivers are taught (maybe not standard?). This looks like the perfect case for the driver to send kids out the back and check seat by seat on his way out the back as well? But, does the driver have to open the door, or can kids of any age do this in an emergency? If the driver has to go back and open the door, he may never get back to the front to check seat by seat... Something I'd never really given any consideration, but this discussion got me thinking. 

 
My department also carries a 6' Navy nozzle.  Since I've been here, we've used it a total of 0 times.  Quite honestly, the only person I know who has used it in an actual fire is my brother-in-law, and he was a fireman in the US Navy.  I'm not going to say that the Navy nozzle doesn't have it's place in structural or vehicular firefighting because it can be used with dramatic results.  Unfortunately, I think that most firefighters would rather use the combination nozzles that we have become accustom to due to the fact that they are more adjustable and more maneuverable.  I prefer the combination nozzle because of the adjustability because fire behavior can change quickly on you.  I especially prefer it in a vehicle fire since you can attack the main body of fire with a straight stream and then go to a fog when stuffing the nozzle under a hood or into a trunk.

 
You're going to have to go inside at some point, namely for overhaul.  And, since it's a metal tube full of plastic with a ton of windows, it's safe to say that you can enter a bus fire with minimal risk.  It's self-vented and there's just a bit of heat.  As long as all of the occupants are out and accounted for, the worst of your fears should be getting some melted plastic on your gear.

By the time the first rig arrived that bus was toast. Presumably all occupants were out. Why even go inside? Seems like a big risk to try and salvage some part of a vehicle. Just hit it from the outside.

oh no doubt it was a great fast knock down. 
 
just good to look at this video, take a moment and think.   Some really great ideas and observations.  
 
as far as the navy nozzle i know its something new guys don't know or haven't seen but i saw one on the rescue one day and was oh thats cool we have one.  i'm a commercial sailor and well we have a ton of them on the ship. and sold brass vary nozzles too...  they are a pain when salt gets in them though.  and we don't use fresh water in the firemain.  
 
but i like the video, shows alot of good things and again a great fast knock down. 

we have it on the rescue in my department but why not attack from the outside using a navy low velocity fog nozzle.  i believe we have a 6 foot one, just the right height to go around the bus get the knock down and cool down.  then you can enter and mop up the hot spots. Just seems like this guy took a risk, especially if the fuel tank let lose, yes it's diesel but it will ignite.  

Always easy to say this from a chair at a desk, but it looks like it is on a slope.  Before they did anything, especially going in, they should have chocked it.  

So a few points that must be considered when using this video as a basis for comparison:
1. The nozzle was set to a narrow to medium fog pattern, something we know will entrain air and push heat, smoke and fire. A straight or solid stream would not have had the same result, or to the same degree.
2. The issue of pushing products of combustion onto trapped occupants outside the fire room has been shown to be nearly negated with a proper solid/straight stream and little movement. Inside the fire room with actual fire out the window, the probability of survivability is next to nothing. 
3. One of the reasons we have such a wide spread of results from the "reset" stream is the misapplication. When you say "at any angle", it's really a perversion of the research showing the smooth/straight stream should be aimed into the opening with the stream entering the opening low and aimed sharply upward at the ceiling and held there with little to no movement to minimize blocking the venting from the same opening.
4. Positioning  a line to attack from the unburned side can result in delayed water on the fire, which we know is the real key to success. The sooner we can cool the fire and stop the production/spread of heat, the better. Also, going to the rear in residential dwellings often doesn't allow for the line to be placed between the fire and the stairs. 
 
In my opinion, the "outside hit" is a tactic that can work very well as long the conditions are right: a) fire must be self-vented from the fire room, b) the opening cannot be out of the way of the first line stretched so that it causes a delay in getting inside (unless it's totally untenable), c) charging the line outside cannot delay the stretch inside (fire on the third floor or above where a dry lay up may be significantly faster).
 
Basically, why would we not want to cool the fire faster if it's possible? Again, done properly, utilizing a straight stream or solid bore properly applied when it doesn't significantly (60 seconds?) delay the stretch in? Again in my opinion this tactic should not be called "transitional attack".  Transitional indicates a movement from one mode to another, but in this case the outside stream is not a defensive move, it's a "new" option in the offensive attack, that like other tactics should be utilized when conditions indicate and allow. Conditions dictate tactics.
 
All of that said, that video went totally different than I anticipated, they made short work of that fire.  

I remember as a young lad riding the school bus that EVERY student thought that the fire drills were a waste of time (and, secretly the bus drivers would take bets on who could evacuate their buses the fastest!).  But, in all seriousness, those plastic seats will take off once there's enough heat energy in that bus.  One of the suggested videos at the end this one was a 12 minute video; it starts right after ignition (in the middle of the bus) and is fully involved by the 4 minute mark.  6 minutes in the situation is no longer tenable to life inside.  6 minutes is the mark that NFPA suggests that we arrive on scene.  Though the video above shows a bus fire where the point of origin is probably the engine compartment, depending on the situation we have to come up with a different plan of attack.  Pertaining to a bus fire, I would like to say that those fire drills pay off and everyone is off the bus and accounted for, that way we can just put the fire out like it was a shed or a sedan on fire.
 
LayTheLine, I understand what you're saying from a structural point of view.  I want to point out that NIST, the ATF, and FDNY have done complex studies with each other to identify the strengths and weakness for different attacks, including the semi-controversial transitional attack, for structure fires.  The studies, from what I've seen, don't really touch on vehicles fires, let alone mass transport.  The point I'm getting at here is that this is a vehicle fire, where we expect the vehicle to be totaled and cannot be saved, very much unlike a house or apartment building where we can save property.  Vehicle fires tend to be a complete loss of property, and we just put out the fire.  As for bus fires, we have to treat it as if someone is inside, but there are two important questions that have to be asked before we conduct an interior attack on a bus fire:  We have to ask the bus driver if everyone is off the bus, and is everyone accounted for.  If the answer to both questions is yes, then we attack the fire in a manner that is safest for us.  If either answer is no, then we take the calculated risk of saving a life (but keep it in the back of your mind of how fast that fire has spread and the toxic environment those victims have been exposed to prior to your arrival).
 
Bus fires are always going to be tricky, just as any vehicle fire.  Just remember that we, as firefighters, have three priorities: LIFE safety, PROPERTY loss prevention, and scene STABILITY, in that order!

This is a short 3-minute video which I think is very educational. I've read and heard both sides of the argument about getting inside a fire and pushing the fire from the unburned side to the burned side. I've read and heard about transitional fire attack and the SLICE-RS concept about putting water on the fire as soon as you can and "reset" the fire; even if it's from the outside. Both arguments seem to have merit and it is very situational dependent. But watch this video and what happens when the firefighter puts water on the fire from inside the bus. The smoke, heat and steam obviously get pushed down to floor level or in this case even to ground level. It's a great video for really seeing the products of combustion being pushed. So I pose the question for discussion: Is it better to knock down the fire from any angle to reset it and cool the BTU's even though you may be pushing products of combustion on to trapped occupants, or is it better to take the extra time to get the hoseline in position by, for example going around to the backdoor, forcing entry and pushing the fire right out the living room picture window? 
 
 
 

45 Medics  Medic 1 Armonk, Banksville, Chappaqua, Millwood, Mt Kisco, Bedford, Bedford Hills up to harris rd 
                  Medic 2 Katonah, Somers, Bedford Hills North of Harris Rd North Salem West of RTE 22
                  Medic 3 South Salem, North Salem East of 22, Vista, and Pound Ridge.
Katonah is central for them so when its one medic in service that medic reposts to katonah 
When medic 1 goes out medic 2 goes to mt kisco medic 3 goes central
when medic 2 or 3 goes out the other medic either 2 or 3 goes central. 
40Bravo1 a bls unit that picks up 911 calls from majority of the nursing homes in the 45 response area as first due.  also back fills for when a volunteer crew can not be mustered. 
 
               

34 is Yorktown
36 is Ossining/Croton/Briarcliff
35 & 39 is Cortlandt/Peekskill
37 is Mount Pleasant

Date:9/30/17
Time:8:30 approx.
Location:200 Bergen Blvd  C/o 9th street  & Kamena street 
District:Company 3 Truck 2
Battalion:
Channel:154.355 
Weather: partly cloudy windy
Units:Fairview All 3 companies Cliffside park Ladder 1 FAST Ridgefield Engine 3 Fairview Emergency Response Unit (EMS) Cliffside Park EMS CP A3 Englewood Hospital ALS 211
Writer:  vodoly 

Description: Dispatched as a confirmed working fire By Fort Lee com center  first units on scene found heavy smoke condition from the building  They used 3 lines plus set up FV trucks Ladder pipe Believe it was used to knock down heavy fire Cliffside Park Ladder 1 went to roof for trench cuts fire placed under control about 90 mins into the fire

 
https://patch.com/new-york/rivertowns/village-tarrytown-awarded-325-000-new-fire-boat

Interesting story I found todayhttp://hudsontv.com/nj-fire-boat-regional-communications-begins-in-hudson/

 
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/white-plains/2017/09/30/white-plains-fire-dept-hose-donation-remade-into-toys-zoo-animals/720060001/

Date: 09/23/17
Time: 1815hrs
Location: 6 Marshall Dr. (Knox Village apartments)
District: Vails Gate
Battalion: 4
Channel:
Weather: 
Units: VGFD, Spring Valley (Engine), Nanuet (Engine), City of Newburgh (1&1), NWEMS, NWPD
Writer: BFD1054
Description: Working Fire
1815hrs-Vails Gate, stand-by companies and Newburgh FD dispatched to report of wires arching next to a building. 
Command arrived to find active fire in the basement. Companies stretched (2) hand lines and made quick work of the fire. 
 
 

Unit it's replacing 1990 Spartan Gladiator 10 person cab /Saulsbury Walk in Box Heavy Rescue 

Fort Lee Rescue 2 was delivered today 2017 Spartan Gladiator 6 person Chassis Rescue 1 Walk Around Body here are some pics I shot of it tonight more to come

Funniest comment on the new unit I retired from my Police job & now I ride in this lol Tour chief working yesterday 

Cool Story....
 
http://m.newson6.com/story.aspx?story=36407229&catId=112042

 
Because ISO isn't about firefighting ability or even capability, it's about meeting textbook benchmarks and checking the box. I've seen a good number of ISO Class 1 rated FDs burn buildings to the ground on a regular basis. But hey at least the residents benefit from the rating in their premiums.

Some pictures of the Englewood Cliffs 9/11 Monument in front of the fire house dedicated to all killed in the attacks that day including 1 resident of the town As side note Englewood Cliffs sent the tower Ladder over to the city as part of a task force cover assignment 

Englewood Hospital & Medical Center  took delivery of a 2017 Ford Explorer SUV for use as a Tour Chiefs unit  Unit delivered  by First Priority