firemoose827

I agree with you. I have been in the fire service for 25 years now and have been a level 2 firefighter for about 15 years. I am a Haz-Mat Tech Basic, National and State certified fire investigator, and I have a training file about an inch thick or more...yet a guy fresh out of FF1 gets 1st asst chief...
I take pride in the fire service and try to uphold the traditions and laws, but its hard when you are one of the few that do that still. I remember when a FF fresh out of basic had to wait to be addressed before they could speak at meetings and such, or when I as a Junior Firefighter had to stand at attention when the chief walked into the room. When senior firefighters spoke, everyone else shut their yaps and listened or got slapped upside the head. When an officer gave an order at a fire scene it was carried out regardless of your training or experience...you did it (unless it was blatently dangerous). Today...these young members get FF1 and start to get big heads and big ideas and visions of glamour and fame and they run their mouths at drills, calls and meetings, disrespect senior members and officers....I even had a guy argue with me in front of the home owner while pumping out their basement...ARGUE with me?!?!?! One of the senior guys/fire commissioners yelled at him and said "a senior fire officer has given an order and you will follow it!!!"
Its getting dangerous...in my area there are MULTIPLE chiefs under the age of 25...But if those of us that can make changes all left the department, who will be left to make the necessary changes and fight for the tax payers and people that call 911? So I guess thats why I am staying, maybe lay low for a few months, then start to poke into things that will anger people...LOL

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

I agree with you. I have been in the fire service for 25 years now and have been a level 2 firefighter for about 15 years. I am a Haz-Mat Tech Basic, National and State certified fire investigator, and I have a training file about an inch thick or more...yet a guy fresh out of FF1 gets 1st asst chief...
I take pride in the fire service and try to uphold the traditions and laws, but its hard when you are one of the few that do that still. I remember when a FF fresh out of basic had to wait to be addressed before they could speak at meetings and such, or when I as a Junior Firefighter had to stand at attention when the chief walked into the room. When senior firefighters spoke, everyone else shut their yaps and listened or got slapped upside the head. When an officer gave an order at a fire scene it was carried out regardless of your training or experience...you did it (unless it was blatently dangerous). Today...these young members get FF1 and start to get big heads and big ideas and visions of glamour and fame and they run their mouths at drills, calls and meetings, disrespect senior members and officers....I even had a guy argue with me in front of the home owner while pumping out their basement...ARGUE with me?!?!?! One of the senior guys/fire commissioners yelled at him and said "a senior fire officer has given an order and you will follow it!!!"
Its getting dangerous...in my area there are MULTIPLE chiefs under the age of 25...But if those of us that can make changes all left the department, who will be left to make the necessary changes and fight for the tax payers and people that call 911? So I guess thats why I am staying, maybe lay low for a few months, then start to poke into things that will anger people...LOL

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??
We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.
That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.
Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?
It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...
Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

Moose,
I empathize with you completely as I was recently placed in a similar situation. I am a 10 year member (joined at 16 years old) of a Westchester County fire department. I have served as an officer for the past 6 years as Rescue Company Lieutenant for 1 year, Rescue Company Captain for 2 years, Engine Company Lieutenant for 1 year, and Captain of the department for 2 years. Additionally, I have taken pride in being well trained and hold certificates for Firefighter 1, Firefigher 2, Firefigher Survival, Rescue Tech Basic, NYS/CT EMT, HAZ-MAT Operations, Truck Company Ops, Firefighter Assist and Search Teams, Introduction to Fire Officer, Fire Officer 1, Emergency Vehicle Operations Course, Emergency Vehicle Operator-Pump, and various Westchester County/Seminar Certifications. Outside of my Emergency Services Career, I have a college degree from a very prestigious Liberal Arts College and am in the process of getting a Masters in Business Administration from an acclaimed NYC University. In my professional career I am an executive for a Fortune 500 company in New York City.
In this past election, I was squeezed out of the line of Officers when an Ex-Chief decided to go around again (lost by 1 vote). At that time, I determined that I no longer wanted to be a part of that organiation and have been to the firehouse for 4 calls (all possible structure fires/entrapments) since the end of my term in may. I have not attended a single drill or meeting. I have drafted my letter of resignation and will submit it next month at our monthly meeting. It was my belief that the values of the organization of which I was a part was no longer consistent with my vision of what an emergency services organization should be and that I no longer wanted to be a part of it. With all due respect, it sounds like you should count your losses as well. Do you really want to be part of a fire department that allows individuals to occupy the rank of Captain with no formal training? Now that you are no longer Chief will you have faith that those individuals are making educated decisions that will ensure your safety on the fireground? Are the members of your organization operating in the best interest of the taxpayers who they serve? It sounds like they would be better trained if they actually cared about the lives of the people who they were responsible for protecting.
I will never join another emergency services organization unless I feel that they take pride in best serving the members of the community and ensure that they are "professionally staffed by volunteers." As for now, my career is over until I find an organization that takes pride in being able to fight fire, doesn't b**** when its time to perform a vigorous, physical drill, and spends less time worrying about attending parades, selling Christmas trees, or having barbecues. In my opinion, the volunteer fire service is somewhat lost and needs a reminder of the true, original goals and ideals on which the system was founded.

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??
We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.
That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.
Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?
It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...
Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

Don't worry Moose, I stepped down as LT this week and I couldn't be happier.

Amen...Amen...AMEN!!
We need the same training period...across the board...Im tired of seeing young FF's fresh out of FF1 get all cocky and arrogant and forget about traditions and experience. Just because you have FF1 doesnt mean you are ready to rock, something I have said for a while now. I am a level II FF but I got mine the old way; I had to take essentials, Fire Attack, FA II, ladder ops, haz mat, pump ops, and a bunch of others.
Training needs to improve...

"Dominate FB"? Our goal isn't to "dominate" or to compete. We really don't care about how many "likes" or, as you put it, "fans" we have, as "likes" are not a real metric on it's own. Our goal is to provide the best possible site and content for our members, and always be striving to find new ways to better the site. Some work, some don't, but some you don't know until you try.

FAST / RIT is not supposed to be a special op's resource or a special team, county team, select group of folks who are trained differently or to a higher level than other firefighters, etc. FAST / RIT skills are necessary for EVERY firefighter every bit as much as any other firefighting essential functions are. When a MAYDAY is transmitted, IMMEDIATE action by knowledgeable, skilled firefighters is required. FAST / RIT operations are often required very early on during an incident, obviously we all need to be ready to perform appropriately and immediately when a firefighter requires assistance due to entrapment or medical condition while in a hazardous location. FAST / RIT training absolutely needs to be a requirement for new firefighters prior to certification. Currently certified firefighters who are not FAST / RIT certified should be required to attend the course and become certified. Firefighting is not a game, a passtime or a hobby, it's about life and death. Those who don't see it that way need to find a different calling.

I agree Syd and Andy, but with the inclusion of Firefighter II also.The bottom line is that FF I is not adequate on its own for combat-ready interior firefighters. There should be no difference in training for career and volunteer, nor requirements to operate as interior or on a FAST unit. FF I, FF II, Survival, and FAST should all be minimum requirements here as they are in other jurisdictions.

Because most of these fire companies were probably incorporated in the late 1800's and early 1900's. To be a corporation you needed "directors" to apply and then corporation officers... President, Vice, Secretary etc....

Now who would consider an aircraft accident to be a hazmat incident, fuel, hydraulic fluids, cargo, O2 generators, etc.?
Federal law is very clear as to the training levels required off the incident commander at a hazmat incident. It is also clear that all firefighters are legally required to meet the standard, but law enforcement is not required to meet it (not saying they can not meet it, just not required to). So if they do not meet the standard, who is incharge?

The guy with the gun

Not to diminish the original question as to who is in charge if an aircraft crash lands the bigger question is who is prepared?

I have walked into an ER for a transport and have had the Doctor himself thrusting a large pile of paperwork at me and yelling "Here, he needs to be at XYZ hospital STAT just load and go!!!" Only brief minutes later the PT is requiring intubation, or they code. I always at least got the brief report from the nurses, which I trusted more then the docs at our local facility, and they knew what info I needed.
There was one time we walked into the trauma room of the ER for a transport and saw the MD about to attempt an intubation; this doc is a medical doc and is rarely in the ER and has not tubed someone in years mind you. I walked in and saw his hands shaking so bad the tube was whipping back and forth. I calmly told him to let go of the laryngoscope and step back. He looked at me and I sear he was about to pass out, he half smiled and handed it over. Took me less than 40 seconds to tube him and we were out the door with the nurse giving me the report as we wheeled out and loaded.
Always try and get a report so you at least know what is going on and what treatments you need to monitor enroute.

The DEC classes are free.

This fire was in the 90's, it was right after I moved from Long Island to upstate NY and I remember wishing I was still there to help them. It jumped the Sunrise highway, which your are correct was 6 lanes wide, they had planned to use that as a natural fire line but it didnt work and they had to chase it.
Upstate we get the NYS Class, Wildland Firefighting, taught by DEC rangers. It is a very good class, but when I took it there was little to no hands on portion of the class. We went into a field and practiced "Attacking" the fire from the burnt side like your supposed to or from the flanks. He laid out marking tape on the field and labled the front, the flanks and the rear of the fire, and we learned briefly about digging fire lines. I also took the Wildland Search & Rescue class also taught by DEC and that was a great class too.
We dont train nearly enough with our brush truck, but we just got a new 4 wheeler so I am sure we will start to drill more with that (untill the magic wears off). We have a lot of brush fires too, primarily being farm land and forest.

Charles Darwin has it right for the evolution of the fire service too:

We'll see if any real fire depts. go for this "change." Close all the doors on the inside and hit it from the outside first. It seems to me that if you could get in to close doors, you could get in and put the fire out. This sounds like Lloyd Laymen deja vu...it works in a confined space but that's all.
Bear in mind that when you hit it from the outside, you've created steam inside. You lose much of your visibility for fire attack and search and steamed any victims that might be present.
Sometimes the tactic of an outside knock-down is a good one for perhaps a fully involved basement fire that has made the basement stairs untenable. However, if you do choose the outside knock-down, bear in mind that you may not be able to get down the stairs because it is still the chimney. You're still going to heavy steam and probably zero visibility.
Look at the picture in the article at the beginning of this thread. That's a vent hole, lad. It is only one window, so you don't know the whole situation, but your best bet is to leave it as a vent hole and go inside and bang a straight stream off the ceiling of the fire room then finish it up with a lower angled line. You kept a lot of your visibility for extinguishment and search, so just thank Mother Nature she had the wind blowing in your favor.
All these studies are under controlled conditions and you can do that at an actual incident too. Just get the fire to a manageable point, by tried and true methods, then pick up your radio and say under control.

What meter do you use that can register 120,000ppm? I am really curious!

Garbage men still ride the back step, and one was recently killed doing so. While allot of the safety requirements we deal with may seem bothersome, we are told time and time again that what others do is no reason for us to do the same.
I have heard of allot of agencies that go in with two meters just in case one malfunctions, this requires at least 2 people. I once kept a mutual aid unit coming in because I wanted a second meter ready and was blasted by the Chief for doing so. Funny thing is the mutual aid company (which was very close to the call) blasted me for taking the meter and a crew in a pick up truck to the call. I just didn't need anything bigger.
I once questioned full turnout gear and SCBA on these calls to a senior officer, and his response was CO is the product of incomplete combustion, thus there is a risk of fire, however small, when investigating these calls. I really had no argument against him on that one.

When 60 Control dispatches us to a central station alarm CO activation, they tell us just that. They do not tell us "no reported symptoms" unless they spoke with the reporting person and question if anyone is experiencing symptoms and the reported tells them that their are no symptoms.

If your CO call is for an IDLH range, it wouldn't be coming from inside. These are the biggest nuisance calls. It clearly is written on the detectors (most) that three beeps means you need a battery. My favorite is how long has it been going off? 2 days. Why did you call us at 330am? Cause I couldn't sleep.

When we get toned out and there are "no reported symptoms," it is for that reason.. no reported symptoms. When the alarm company calls and nobody answers that is the report we get. There is always the potential that the occupier is unconscious and cannot reach the phone. You just never know, and that chance is why we respond with urgency unless informed otherwise.

Non-Emergency, Rescue & Engine. This gives you two meters and adequate manpower to fulfill the Two In, Two Out. We used to send Rescue only until we had more than one incident where a CO Detector was actually a smoke detector.
CO w/ Symptoms get's Two Engines, Truck, Rescue & EMS. This provides units to locate a source, vent the premises and assist EMS with removing / assisting patients.