billy98988

Exactly. Once again, no one wants to take any personal responsibility. We can debate the merits of their system (again), but that fact remains, that's how things work down there. You can either choose to participate or choose to decline. But, you can't complain about it after the fact because you rolled the dice and came up short.

We're going to really do this thread again? The dept responds to ensure there is no life threat. If everyone is out of the structure and the fire will not spread it is allowed to burn. The homeowner knew the risk when they chose to not participate in funding the FD.
If they offer their full services regardless of whether or not they paid, why would anyone pay until they needed help. You're now punishing everyone that was responsible and paid their fair share.

I am sooo not a fire guy, so feel free to break my chops on this. Would it be unreasonable to stop allowing the building of structures that if on fire, would be beyond the capacity of the local FD?
It would mean only small structures in small towns, and larger structures in large towns. I know there are buildings in my town that we simply could not be expected to handle with what we have. I think the big new Trump buildings in NR and other huge buildings in WP are beyond the capacity of their protecting agencies.
If a developer felt the need put such a concentration of fire load in a single spot to better fatten his bank account, he would need to subsidize the FD in perpetuity. Not a tax break, a tax add-on for the cost of added fire suppression capacity.
Some will say that large fires are what mutual aid is for. I agree. Based on history, a large fire in a single home in my town needs 2-4 MA dept's to fight it. That is fine and that is what MA IS for. Is MA for building a sprawling 250 bed nursing home full of folks that could not walk out on a warm sunny clear day with NO fire? In an area with NO hydrants?
The FD is part of a Town's infrastructure. If the infrastructure cannot support a large structure, be it sewage, water, EMS or fire, than perhaps we ( or more accurately you), the folks who whether paid or volly have stood up and said, "I will handle the fires around here" need to stand up and say, "I'm real good, but I am not 7 floors X 200 X 200 OMD good. Lets make it three story clusters with sprinklers. That we can handle"
What do you guys think of that? I await my lessons.

Nicoli's decisions have left his home community with 1 less life-saver. For those of you that don't know, he has been awarded numerous life saving awards as well as a congressional level award from Congresswoman Dr. Nan Hayworth last month. It is unfortunate that internal FD politics have resulted in his decision to no longer be a firefighter.
I don't think my own community as a whole is aware of the separation between the the company and the district functions, as mirrored in one of the comments above. I certainly did not understand this for several years after becoming a FF/EMT.
When we hold fundraising events such as a "boot drive", we get dressed in our PPE and hold out fire boots for motorists to donate money to our cause.... "OUR CAUSE?" Unless they have a personal connection to the FD, I doubt that any significant percentage of the donators understand that this $ is NOT going towards training, equipment or operational readiness. This is straight up false advertising. And I am personally sickened by it. I've told my friends and family that donated money annually to the fire dept through the companies annual fund drive, to stop.
I have witnessed repeatedly over the years, tens of thousands of dollars getting spent by my company on parades, annual dinners, installation dinners, christmas parties, etc... And simultaneously get turned down for much needed equipment and stonewalled on training funds by the fire commission. Although these are two separate entities, there seems to be something very very wrong with this. I did not join the FD to drink beer either. I did not join to go to parades.
Ask yourselves: are you going through more cans of ZEP and tubs of turtle wax than saw blades and saw fuel? Our pride should not come from how shiney and clean our trucks are, but rather how dirty and trashed our gear is from having training with it so much. I believe that if we prioritize the trophies that go in a glass case over what we actually signed up to do, we are more likely to end up in a pine box.

Chelsea Hook & Ladder

Troy, NY
Last Date to File: 2/3/2012

http://www.cityofstamford.org/filestorage/25/52/142/256/673/677/1460/POLICE_OFFICER_PACKAGE_-_2012.pdf

Date: 05-29-12
Time: 1615hrs
Location: Route 308
Frequency: OC911/46.40 (LZ)
Units Operating: Maybrook Car-2 (IC), R413, Montgomery (LZ), Montgomery EMS, Stat Flight Air-2
Weather Conditions: Hot
Description Of Incident: Car vs. Pedestrian w/Medevac
Reporters: BFD1054/TAPSJ
1615hrs (approx)-OC911 alerting Maybrook for the MVA, Car vs. Pedestrian.
- OC911 advising that they have placed a Medevac on stand-by.
1618hrs-Maybrook Car-3 requesting a launch of the Medevac and Montgomery FD to set-up the LZ.
1622hrs-OC911 advising that the Medevac has an ETA of 10 minutes.
1625hrs-OC911 advising Montgomery Car-2 that the Medevac is 04 minutes out.
1630hrs-Montgomery E223 out at the LZ.
1631hrs-Maybrook LZ Command advising that Air-2 is on the ground.
1650hrs-Maybrook LZ Command advising that Air-2 is off the ground, en-route to Westchester Medical Center, LZ is terminated.
1651hrs-Maybrook Command advising situation under control, all Maybrook units returning.

I know I will get crucified for saying this - but here goes.
As a long-time member of the forums, and as someone who generally doesn't hold back my opinions, I have frequently found myself on the receiving end of what I call "over-moderation."
My recent banishment from here came on the heels of a thread I started, begging people not to hijack the thread or turn it into the all-too-common paid vs. volunteer debate. Almost immediately after starting the topic, some chose to go the route I didn't want it to go, I became irritated (some call it pissed off) and fired off. When I went back and forth with someone openly about this, I got banned (I don't know if he did or not, but that's not the point). I then sent a message to the Moderators both here and on my Facebook page with some choice phrases. I spent a few months banned from here, but as you can see, I am back (for now).
Putting aside my personal opinions of certain people running these forums, I still enjoy them for the most part and honestly feel they are an invaluable tool to all of us - provided we use them the right way. I know I've given Seth my word that I will try harder to brush certain things off and not engage in some of my previous behaviors, but I know I'll probably slip up again. I am a very, VERY opinionated person, passionate about what we do with a fairly decent amount of experience and training to support what I say. I've seen friends and family hurt or worse doing this stuff and can only hope that some of the things we talk about on public forums like these will make all of us smarter and more cognizant of the dangers we face.
Another thing to consider...
As others have said in the past, sometimes we just need to put our "big boy pants" on and develop a thicker skin for the criticisms and advice of others. Nobody is perfect, especially me, and we all make mistakes. As members of the emergency service community we're one big family - like it or not - and even though we may constantly fight about things, we still (usually) can pull together when the chips are down. We go through a lot of bad things together and a lot of good too - but we need to put certain stuff off to the side and keep the forums on track to do what they're meant to do, help us all do our jobs better and safer, and to stick with one another when we need it most.
The fire service is a great part of our country's culture and I am so very glad to be a part of it. I've made countless friends doing it, and even more so from just this forum. I know that we all think our own way of doing things is always better than the other guys, but it isn't always the case and coming to online resources like this with an open mind can (and does) help all of us.
Last thought...
In this month's Fire Engineering there's an article on fire department social media policies. I think every Chief, Commissioner and Officer should take the time to read it and understand it. I know I learned a few things reading it which will change certain feces I occasionally spew from my mouth and on to my keyboard!
Thanks for posting this George!

So what's up people? Just an opinion, since the site has undergone the software change, feels to me like the "environment" has changed as well.
To the career firefighting Brothers: I realize there is immense pressure on the home-front these days, meaning the jobs are under pressure. Nobody can get a contract, morale is suffering, making it harder to do what you do, Yonkers wants to mess with the job again. Regarding a website like this, there is a new awareness that social media can have real world ramifications.
Witness the Miami-Dade fire captain who recently posted a rant on facebook about the George Zimmerman case. That got him demoted to buck private. I guess he's lucky he's still on the job. The rules in Florida for civil servants can be severe, but I guess that's true everywhere. Just more severe in some places.
And I guess that's why a lot of Brothers and Sisters who used to post more frequently have pulled back as of late. Not that they rant, rather they're being hesitant. It's smart to CYA. You gotta.
Once again just an opinion but the direction can change for the positive. The discussions about firefighting, experiences, the posting of photos of apparatus, these types of posts should be expanded upon, so more people will come back in to the discussion boards. I think many are hesitant to post anything, and it's in direct connect to the job now.
We all knew that was coming. Word was out on this site long ago. Remember the "Cameras are everywhere" thread? Take a look at the NY Post this morning. they are attempting to vilify an NYPD Sgt. who was speaking on the street to the local thugeries that only understand street. One little rat videoed him, and bango, front page of the Post. I watched that video. There is nothing surprising or vile in it. The vile is a morality dictate from the "so morally pure" organization that prints it. You know the one with the phone tap scandal going on. Those morally pure folk.
Trying to destroy an Sgt doing the job the way it gets done in some places. Dealing with a subject with a reported 20 arrests. Nice guy. And the paper exploits this dirtbag to denigrate the NYPD. Why?
The point of this post is directed at the career Brothers and the cops, and ems, and volunteer firefighters who make up this online forum/community. There is so much you can still talk/write about. It will lift morale for guys to get back to discussing the stuff we all learn from.
Happy Monday morning. You know what that media saturation of bad news, it hits everybody. We ll need to stay vigilant enough to realize, just take a look around you, and you'll see the American economy is still vibrantly active, sure there are big problems with the GOVT, but Americans mostly yawn and go back to work. the gazzilion stories of the 10 percent who are unemployed struggling is indeed worthy of attention. But take a look around you at the thriving, the commerce, the technology, the defeat of terrorists.
This country is tired and worked out, but it never gives up. And that's why things are going to be okay. That's why eventually the GOVT will figure out what the hell they are doing. Someday things will come back. The dread, the doom, you know what it's just not worth worrying about it. It'll make you sick unless you step up and put it all down, and continue to do what you do.
So how about some more postings? I yearn to read more from just about everybody here. Like the Summerville Brother said, have a great day.

NYS Health Law Article 30 requires all ambulance services to recieve a CON (certificate of need) from the Department of Heath. To get that you have to prove that there is a need for an ambulance service in an area and that an additional ambulance service would not (financially or membership drain) hurt the existing services. To prove need, you would have to show that calls are either not being covered or are being delayed. Since the area is fully covered by ALS services with average 4 minute response times you will not be able to prove need. An additional service will financially hurt the 2 existing services in (MV, NR, & Pelham). You could also hurt the membership rolls of Eastchester, Scarsdale and Larchmont/Mamaroneck VAC since many of there members come from NR.
Since each of the communities already have established services and are dispatched by the local police (most via a service contract) you will no be able to recieve calls.
Finally, Most VAC's are having major problems with staffing, instead of watering down the pool, why don't you join one of the existing VAC that could use the help.

The best part is, it happened, all the whining in the world wont reverse that, and you know what it probably wont stop the FD from asking for help again. Good job brothers. I sure as hell wouldnt b**** about cops trying to lend a hand, and id lend a hand to them in a heart beat.

And you know what crime cop, some of these (not all) are the same posters who pull the "we're on the same team" card when it comes time for some "courtesy" that they feel entitled too out in the field.
Their outrage is sporadic and magically disappears when convenient.

I haven't been on emtbravo in a few days so I sign in and see this topic and I figure I should get another cup of coffee before I read my daily dose of anti cop stupidity... and I was not let down.....
I have said before many times that there is a huge anti cop sentiment on here and it once again reared it's ugly head in this thread and in the thread about the ESU guys getting people of an apartment.
I believe it is incumbent on all of us to do WHATEVER we have to do to get the job done and to keep the public safe. It seems like some on here have forgotten that keeping the public safe is our primary function.
When I happen to be at a scene, even a medical call, I help however I can. If someone from empress says " here hold this" and they hand me whatever, what am I going to say no ??? Of course not I'm going to provide whatever help they need to get their job done. There have been times when a PD member has had to drive an empress bus because the medics were working the patient.. do you think anyone at empress got their drawers in a bunch and complained that a cop was driving the bus ?? Of course not..... this isn't a perfect world, jobs don't always go by the playbook and we all have to be ready for that.
If there is a working structure fire and the YFD is there and i'm walking up to the scene and a firefighter is trying to connect to a hydrant and it's stuck, if he says " hey can you give me a hand here" Of course i'm going to help him without hesitation.. because thats what we do... we help without hesitation.
I could go on and on providing more what if's and giving actualy instances where cops have been asked by other services to help but those of us who are rational know that these troopers rose to the occasion and supported the FD when they needed it.
Great Job Brothers.

Why so much hate for the cops on this board? I can never understand it. These guys were asked to help out by THE FIRE CHIEF and they're still wrong in the eyes of some. It's almost like some guys would rather see the structure burned to the ground before they see PD being cast in a postitive light for helping out when REQUESTED by the fire chief.
Maybe, just maybe if that particular fire district was squared away, the cops wouldn't have to be doing their jobs.

Wrong. You pay taxes for State Troopers to protect lives and property. The old "my taxes pay your salary" argument is bull and you know it. You don't get to tell them what they do on a daily basis.
Its funny, everyone criticizes NYSP for not cooperating at accident scenes (and I don't agree with their policies on that issue) but when these particular Troopers cooperate as requested by the senior officer on a fire scene they're still wrong...
Do these grapes taste funny to you???

I know that at least two of the pictured Troopers are FFs, one of them Chief of a neighboring department. Not their first rodeo.
I am a proud union Fireman, and I have had a Trooper operate a line while I made a search.
Many of our organizations could take lessons on professionalism from the NYSP.

I don't know, I mean like two people posted something negative about the photo, the actions of the Troopers as directed by the Incident Commander. I think the blow back comments from that were a bit much, but I understand.
We all need to remember the major differences between the urban operation of emergency service, and those occurring in the 'burbs or the sticks. When you work for an organization of virtually unlimited resources, the delineation of responsibility is necessarily more defined.
However in the outer areas of cities and beyond those lines of responsibility become more blurred toward simply a common goal of eliminating a threat, or rescuing those in need, treating them. However it must be done, by whomever is tasked with the immediate or secondary responsibility.
I remember a mailman helping on of our guys raise a ground ladder to effect a rescue.
An ambulance operator hooking up a hydrant for a one man engine performing a forward lay.
It goes on.
If these three guys had been a couple of carpenters working next door, and the mailman, this story doesn't even surface. There are everyday people out there who regularly come upon emergencies they did not ask to be near, yet still spring into action to help victims and first responders.
We as a people are loaded with angst these days. We've lost our collective sense of humor. Many are so economically squeezed the pressure is almost unbearable. People are going crazy out there; too many of them.
Thank God there are still so many people on the side of civilization, who step up, who help out. That is what we a people still are, despite all the chaos around us. Stay safe.

No matter what anyone says, the IC made a COMMAND DECISION, and utilized whatever resources he had available at the time. What would be the difference between setting up a master stream and leaving it flowing unattended, versus putting those fine gentlemen in charge of a hoseline (aside from the fact that a master stream shouldn't be left unattended)?
I applaud the IC recognizing that help was needed and seeking the assistance, and even more, thumbs up to the Purple Ties for rising to the task. They very easily could have said "not my job" and gone and secured a perimeter/the scene (not a knock on LEO's).
I have been on many scenes that the PD assisted with fire operations, none were ever freelancing, and everyone forgets....
WE ARE ALL OUT THERE FOR ONE PURPOSE!!! TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So long as that gets done, in a controlled manner, and everyone goes home safe, everyone should take a chill pill, and re-focus and worry about the problems they/their own department has, before throwing out s*** about what others do.
[/rant]

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.
"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"
In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.
Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.
"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."
I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements. All ESU members are at a minimum EMT's with several Paramedics and one or two Physician Assistants in the ranks. Unless things have changed, all FDNY members are CFR's (with some EMT's/medics thrown in there). Since we are technically better trained emergency medical responders (as in trained to a higher standard), should ESU take over patient care activities when we arrive on scene?
"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"
You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.
As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.
"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."
I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "
Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.
"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"
I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

You have read about these. Were you there or are you just going off what you saw and heard in a Fire magazine or on the internet? I ask the question, were the write ups objective or were they written up by someone with an anti-PD agenda or anti-PD sentiments? Obviously video doesn't lie but even a video may not catch the whole scene and just pieces of it.
I have seen first hand and read the other side of the fence, with FD members doing ridiculous things at rescues to jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others. Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.
I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else in emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job. The facts have been exhausted here numerous times, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but many local PD's (including NYC and WCPD) were tasked with performing rescue work long before many FD's. Bitching about PD continuing in the rescue field is like EMS bitching about FD's encroaching on their "turf" when all these FD's want to get into the EMS first response business. Is the arguement valid? As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs, but I'm not going to knock them for it because in the end it's what's best for public safety.
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

How dare they? Did anyone check them for "fireproof vests"? Wonder what the NYPD PBA has to say about this? "Who was guarding the hen house while they were playing firemen?"
Sarcasm off! Job well done men.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/close_broken_traps_rescues_family_80AKsFrKholGJ2Cy3YvSKN
Based on certain peoples sentiments here, I guess they should have just sat around and waited....
Kudos on a great job well done

Heres a thought... dont put yourself in a situation where a police officer would draw a taser or firearm on you. Then you wont have to worry about being killed. Just my 2 cents.

Put turnout gear on these guys and what do you have - a disciplined company operating as a team with a supervisor.......