FirNaTine

In radio and voice contact is still considered supervision. If you are not comfortable doing a search alone you should resign.

Oh and lets not forget about the dead husband! We could not have possibly saved him he was definitely gone by then too. I have unfortunatly been present for LODD's. Doing a 360 would have done nothing to prevent them. You should perhaps read them yourself. But that is totally off topic. Nothing and I mean NOTHING will save a life more than an aggressive firefighter. A BS kitchen fire took one life and almost took another. If you think walking around the building was worth when you are the ONLY guy there you need to grow a set.

It has nothing to do with dumbing down, it has everything to do with "diversity", the PD is already more diverse or they would drop the requirement for them too I'm sure. It's funny though, they got rid of the FDNY college requirement to try to increase the number of minorities who passed, but how is that logical if a sufficient number of minorities are able to pass NYPDs supposedly higher level of college requirement? Could it be maybe they just don't want the job? No of course not, that's absurd. Ask the Vulcans why, if the NYPD is so diverse with a high college requirement, how does it make sense that lowering the FDNYs would produce the same result? If their president could even grasp the logic of that statement I think his bow tie might spin.

Sadly that trend seems to be reversing in the name of fairness and "diversity". The FDNY used to require college credits as a condition of employment, that has since been reduced to 6 months of "work experience". Apparently the ability to learn and apply your knowledge isn't as important to municipalities as what ethnic group you hail from. Don't be surprised if you see more of these requirements disappearing as well as the lowering of standards and requirements for promotions all in the name of "diversity".

Many times this "Boss"or "Leader", or whatever you want to call him has to get involved and be out in front not because he wants to "lead by example" but because he's been dealt a "Bad Hand" to play with due to the broken System which now worries about reaching "Quotas" and not "Qualified" individuals! It's unfortunate, but nowadays an Officer many times has to accomplish tasks by himself due to the incompetent morons the Fire Service is hiring. He/She has no choice if they want the Job done right. Thank You "Affirmative Action" and All you Liberal POS Politicians! You just made an Officer's Job that much more difficult!

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head!
PARENTS! Not the school, not the FD, not the government.
Good for you!!!

One of the more ridiculous posts I've seen on here in a long time. Many others have beaten the horse to death- if you are relying on a bunch of high school kids for your first alarm assignment, you have big problems. I started back in the day as an 18 year old with 6 months of high school left to go. My department had no "junior" members and therefore no special rules. Small town, everyone knew me for many years, it was left to my discretion, my parents didn't put any limitations on me, and I graduated with high honors from high school. Fast forward 35+ years, I have my own son who is a 17 year old junior member where we live now. Just finishing FF1 this week. Given the chance, he'd be running on every call he could grab. I as his father have placed limitations on what he is allowed to respond to, and that generally means he goes to NOTHING on school nights once he goes toes up in bed (I still go, but without him). No one in previous posts has mentioned the parental element in this discussion. As a parent of a minor, I make the decisions for my son, not the fire district and not the school when it comes to this topic. He can make all the weekend calls he wants, but if I find out he left school for an alarm, or took his pager to school, that's the end of it.

There's 18 and 19 yr olds fighting for our freedom and getting no sleep. Get your asses out of bed and go help your Community no matter what the time! s*** I did it which was once and a blue moon and still kept my grades up. Where the hell are these kids Volunteering Bed Stuy and Crown Heights for God's sake? Suck it up!

Interesting... when I was a senior in High School... 18YO and FF-I... our neighboring department had a 4 alarm fire we relocated to.. My principal asked me what I was still doing in class and not heading to the FD LOL! It's a fine line... where the battle is never really won as you become "that guy" who picks and chooses his calls.. School comes first as it leads us to our careers and is our education, so yes sleeping through the night and missing the commercial alarm happens.. as for fires or serious incidents.. I never could justify loss of life over being tired once in math class.. neither could my teachers... just my two cents.

The judges are reviewing the quotes to see just what was said...the air is thick with anticipation of their decision, there's alot riding on the outcome. This could finally put the debate of paid vs volunteer to rest....
OK looks like they've reached a decision......let's get back to the ring for the English Professor's call....
"After reviewing the quotes, we have reached a decision...
Actually what was said is "people who work (or volunteer)"...people being the noun (i.e. who) and work or volunteer being the verb (i.e what they are doing), so this round goes to dave0820"!!
So there you have it folks, in an unexpected 3 to 2 call, the judges have confirmed that volunteers ARE people. Wow what drama.............

Not for me but obviously for some it does. QTIP Brother! Sense a lot of animosity and possibly hidden guilt here! Plenty of Combo Depts. to out there where Career guys have been invited thru more then one locked door to hoist a few with fellow Volunteers. Seen it plenty of times. Also have seen the old adult beverage in the Soda Machine trick over the years in Career Stations. Does the truth hurt?

http://nypost.com/2004/12/07/100m-flame-thrower-beer-brawl-bravest-sues-fdny-over-chair-smash-2/
I thought incidents involving alcohol only involved vollys. People who live in glass houses should not through stones

Should we assume that no Career firefighter has ever been out very late drinking on his night off and came to work early the next day with pleanty of alcohol left in his syatem? And when that happens, do his career brothers report him, or do they just cover for their union brother? Why when a firefighter does something wrong can we just say he was a firefighter? I will NEVER understand the hate some career firfighters have for Volunteers. What this guy did is bad for the fire service in general.

Could have been a Career guy who was also a Volunteer? There's plenty of them still around!

Hey guys we got our own who are supposedly trained and still get killed in our line of work so let's not ridicule a cop or the NYPD Administration for not properly training them! Our own fellow FD Brothers screw up for not following proper protocol and the basics!!

This is a very sad situation thoughts and prayers to all those affected especially Officer Guerra. It is unreal on the amiunt of people I have heard over the last few days say things such as he was a cop why was he in a fire, and my answer was simple, His job was to PROTECT AND SERVE in any way possible. Rest In Peace

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

What was the officer's intentions? Did you speak to them in the elevator?
They just announced that the officer died so we will never know what he thought or what he was going to do when he got to the 13th floor.
bnechis, he won't be promoted and he won't be receiving any medals (except maybe posthumously).
They were sent on a radio run. Bottom line.

How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).
What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?
In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

Sadly, it was just reported that 1 of the Officers has passed away. A terrible price to pay, leaving a wife and four young children without a Father. I truly hope the NYPD implements SOP's that protect responding Officer's in the future to prevent this from happening again. While their efforts were certainly valiant, the outcome was tragic. Proper training for Police Officers to effectively evaluate the location, severity and potential victims effected and relayed to responding FD units can be of tremendous value and drastically enhance the success of the operation for all involved. My prayers for the Officer's family and for the second Officer's full recovery.

Please don't beat me too hard: I am not a cop, and I am at best minimally a fireman. I am a Union official and I read a lot- Cop and FD mags and The Chief.
In the NYPD acadamy, is there ANY fire training?
What would happen if the guy that makes the PD acadamy curiculum contacted his counterpart at the FD acadamy and tried to set up a short class on FD ops and dos and don'ts for trainees?
My guess is that someone would not like it and make a fuss, maybe even a Union official.
For the folks online here that have a much better knowledge of NYC FD and PD ops- would this work? Do you think it is a dumb idea, esp given the hindsight of this event where well-meaning responders became badly injured? Would it be so awful that two agencies that serve the public at emergencies share a bit of knowledge about the best and safest way to do it? So awful that despite this tragedy we not change anything?

We respond to ALL calls of trouble, including reports of fire. That is SOP, policy, or whatever you want to call it.
We do not FIGHT fires. That is the job of our brother and sister firefighters. However, we do observe and report until the firefighters arrive. We then back off and do crowd control, traffic control, or whatever.
I can't comment on what heppened with the two injured NYPD officers but, if I had to guess, it would be that they responded to the trouble call and were confronted with an already out-of-control fire.
"First responder" means what it says. Police officers are first responders and MAY arrive at fires before the fire department. Sometimes that has disasterous consequences....but that's the nature of the job.

I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".
You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?
They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.
You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?
The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.
Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

Chief Henry Campbell was of the old school that if you are properly trained it won't be your training that hurts you. PD can be an asset at any FD scene. They need to know what the limits are as to when they turn from asset to liability. What I have scene on the news reports was that the 2 officers exited the elevator on the fire floor and the fire was in the hallway. They opened the door into an inferno. The rescuers became the rescued. This asks the question, were these officers trained in how to respond to this situation? Are other officers at risk for a similar occurence?