FirNaTine

Still don't understand how a City like Yonkers with many bodies of water around don't have a Dive Team. Mind boggling!

Rob,
I don't think he kicked him in the head. I watched it a few times and it appears they kicked the mutt's hat away.

I just came back from Detroit, I talked to guys who were at the Buhl building fire June 11 1982.(google) has a few pics of a 16 foot roof ladder lashed to the tip of a 100 stick, and the boys getting a 50 extension ladder to the tip of another 100 aerial to make multiple rescues.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

Here's a video of what appears to be a rescue affected by 1 FF
http://www.statter911.com/2011/09/27/must-see-video-mogadore-ohio-house-fire-with-apparently-wo-rescued/

Alot is being made here of proper staffing and I too agree that staffing should be a priority, but my comments are more directed at departments that use 2 in 2 out to justify not acting when action is necessary. One of the benefits of my particular kind of firefighting "career" is that I get to work with guys from just about everywhere and the fact is there are now departments that do NOT risk to save a life and they use 2 in and 2 out as one of the reasons for their inaction. It's not about showboating or being a cowboy or a tough guy, it's about doing what we are here to do when it counts...when lives are in the balance and there is a chance we can make the difference. Bottom line in my book, there is no excuse for not acting when someone's life is savable...period. It is my belief and my experience that 2 well trained, knowledgeable and safely aggressive firefighters can make the attempt to at the very least contain the fire to give those trapped a better chance at survival and they can do this based on all they know to make the judgement that the risk is worth it. Unfortunately it is also my experience that there are firefighters out there now (and maybe not here but they are out there) that are being trained that they should not act without "proper" staffing even if they could make the difference...and I'm sorry but that to me is completely contrary to our primary mission.

Actually yes I do think that it would work, because that's exactly what did work for the 200 years of American firefighting before the 2 in 2 out rule became the the rule. The idea of having members outside ready to assist is a good one, but it's not a new one, we just didn't give it a name years ago. Maybe if more emphasis was put on training guys to put the fire out instead of trying to regulate them to do everything but so they don't get a boo boo, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I've said it before I'll say it again, the surest way to make the fireground safe is to know how to do your job and the only way you learn how to do you job is by doing it. I will take safely aggressive over aggressively safe any day and I believe that those we serve are better served by that attitude, as is the fire service itself.

Without a doubt this may be the case in many (most?) occurrences, but the incidents we go to rarely give us all the variables and therefore we must prepare for what might happen when we enter the wrong tactic for X or mistime a particular task. At worst using the common thinking on 2 in/2 out, they're saying that in the absence of a known rescue, you should have 6 personnel (IC, MPO, 2FF in, 2FF out) on scene before committing personnel to the interior fire area. Many of us are forced to modify that down to a smaller number and likely this is why we've not seen stronger language in defining the 2 out.
In the end we all know that we must consider the dangers of committing personnel to an interior firefight when there is no one readily available to assist them should something go wrong. Just having to weigh that decision vs. the old days of being halfway to the door before the brake was set likely has saved firefighters from injury or death.
As far as allowing firefighters to use their common sense? Their training? I think of so many threads here and on other forums and wonder if you really think that would work?

And as a result increasing everyones chances of getting injured or killed, and having to deploy your FAST/RIT Team instead of nipping it in the Butt! I believe they're some credibility to this point of view. JMO

Id love to see a Stat on what caused a FAST/RIT Team to be deployed and could it have been prevented by FFs just learning and doing their Job to the best of their ability and using good common sense. Yes there will always be the unpredictable/unforeseen events that unfold at an Incident causing both death and serious injuries to members but how many times are these unfortunate outcomes caused by our own members, both directly and indirectly, thru poor Strategy/Tactics and piss poor decision making on ones part, no matter what their Rank is. As Ive said numerous times, we are our own worst enemy more so then often and are to quick to point fingers and blame to cover up our mistakes. JMO.

And as a result increasing everyones chances of getting injured or killed, and having to deploy your FAST/RIT Team instead of nipping it in the Butt! I believe they're some credibility to this point of view. JMO

Id love to see a Stat on what caused a FAST/RIT Team to be deployed and could it have been prevented by FFs just learning and doing their Job to the best of their ability and using good common sense. Yes there will always be the unpredictable/unforeseen events that unfold at an Incident causing both death and serious injuries to members but how many times are these unfortunate outcomes caused by our own members, both directly and indirectly, thru poor Strategy/Tactics and piss poor decision making on ones part, no matter what their Rank is. As Ive said numerous times, we are our own worst enemy more so then often and are to quick to point fingers and blame to cover up our mistakes. JMO.

Maybe we were way behind, but I don't remember FAST or RIT even being a "thing" until the 2 in/ 2 out rules came into affect. Before that we had back-up lines and "fresh crews", but personnel dedicated to rescuing our own on immediate stand-by? Nope. So while there may be some times we feel our hands are tied (or we're breaking the rules), it appears this is what it took for us to at least consider what it takes to save our own. We can't prove people would have died if they had ignored 2 in/ 2 out, but I bet we can find examples of members who have lived after being rescued by RIT/FAST?

When you consider what the intent of the 2 in/2 out rule is, I would say that anybody who is counting non-interior qualified/capable personnel towards the 2 out are clearly fools.
As Dinosaur points out, the rule itself appears to ignore certain best practices for handling an incident, like the need for an IC and pump operator for situations the rule would apply to for the fire service.
The reality is that the rule is typically going to really only be a consideration during the initial stage of a fire response while additional units are still enroute.
As someone who's department has a minimum on duty staffing of 5 and had been as low as 4, it's certainly not ideal, but it is possible for the IC to man the pump and direct incoming units until additional personnel can arrive and take over that role.
Additionally, the 2 out is not going to be sufficient to perform a FF rescue in most cases.
So, it begs the question, depending on the situation at hand, is it better to initiate an interior fire attack (potentially halting the fire growth) with just your 2 in / 2 out or waiting until you have sufficient personnel to staff that plus an IC, a pump operator, etc., but allowing the fire to grow and potentially be "more dangerous" when the fire attack is initiated?

I have a question, how many firefighters have died in the initial phases of an incident due to disregarding 2 in- 2 out?
I know roughly 100 of us die annually, but about 1/2 of those LODDs are vehicle accidents, heart attacks ect leaving the other 1/2 as actual fireground deaths due to the fire. Now I've been around awhile and I do my best to keep up on LODD reports and I can't really think of any incidents where disregarding the 2 in 2 out rule was a contributing factor. To the best of my knowledge (and I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge may be limited) the vast majority of fireground deaths have happened when a good number of FFs are on scene, operations are well under way and in most if not all cases a FAST was assembled and ready to go.
Personally I find the 2 in - 2 out rule to be overkill and another attempt to make things safer that ultimately makes them less safe.

This statement alone defines the health of most fire departments, rural or not, paid or not.

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page. 75% of those who die in fires don't have working smoke detectors so although that's not that glamorous it should be a push. When we see fire departments frazzled with a simple working fire we know they are not going to be able to handle a fire with people trapped. I'm sure if you have experienced both you know the difference. If you are calm cool and collected on the fireground on a normal basis which is helped by training you will have the best shot at addressing life hazards. If a normal working fire is a cluster you probably won't be able to up your game when the real pressure is on.

1) Cost Effective? Really? While the pre-manufactured Butler style garage and living quarters is a cheap way to house firefighters, they are a stones throw from multi bay volunteer stations that refuse to allow the staffed units to be stationed with them and at the same time fail to get their fleet staffed during calls. so now you have multiple stations blocks apart covering each other. Total waste of $$$.
2) Thank god they don't. While I am all for regionalization. If one of the 59 local FD in Westchester can not provide an immediate response, they have a few options: 1. Work on internal issues to increase manpower, including shifts. 2. Merge with 1 or more other depts. 3. hire staff, 4. all of the above.
If a VFD in Westchester is unable to staff its calls it has options. Staffing career regional rigs is a Band-Aid they puts the financial burden on the county taxpayers and not on the local ones. Since my local taxes grantee a response to my house why should my county taxes go up to cover other locals who are unwilling to pay?

This is one out of Ft. Lauderdale in the 80's.

Granted, Robin Williams death was tragic. He was a great man. However, there are numerous Soldiers, Firefighters, Law Enforcement Officers, Paramedics, EMT's, Dispatchers and just regular people that also are great people from all walks of life that commit suicide everyday and it goes unnoticed that there is an epidemic that has been going on for a long time. Many of us know people who ended their own life and only realized the signs and the fact that they should have done something after it was too late.
And because a celebrity takes his own life, it gets noticed and all of a sudden, it's a big deal and everyone is talking about how people should help people contemplating suicide and their should be more attention given to the issue. But the fact of the matter is, once the Robin Williams media circus calms down, people will again forget about this silent killer and the stigma that prevents many from seeking help will return. People don't understand that suicide prevention is not something simple or easy to do.
It's disgusting the way some EMS workers and Police Officers treat and label "EDP's"....even that term is wrong and hurtful, and I feel that contributes to many people in emergency services not seeking help. I also believe they fear being shunned for the rest of their careers should it make it to the gossip circuit or the kitchen table. There are some cruel people in our business who enjoy seeing their peers suffer.
On a lager scale, our mental health and wellness care system is understaffed, underfunded, and unable to give people true tools to succeed in many cases. This is not something that's going to be or can be solved by giving people antidepressants.

Contemplating suicide is a deep and dark place to be, and, in most situations, all it takes is one friend who truly cares to save a life. Sadly, there will always be people who lose all hope for their lives, feel very alone and uncared about in that moment, and don't see another way out or a path towards a happy future, and nobody will or can intervene at that point. In most cases, suicide is not an impulsive act.

Dinosaur, I guess you are not a veteran! This man gave up 6 years of his life for his country and his home town. He does deserve more!

Congrats to snotty, EMTBravo's August 2014 Member Of The Month.

snotty has been a member of EMTBravo since October of 2102. He makes many fascinating posts often giving great insight into old school firefighting with a very unique sense of humor. Last year, there was even a thread called "snotty Quotes". Click here to read that thread. Or click here for an example of one of his recent posts.

He is also a very well respected Westchester firefighting leader, legend, and icon, and we are honored that he posts on EMTBravo actively, as many members enjoy reading what he has to say.

snotty is just one our many, many excellent, dedicated, and valued members who are deserving of this recognition, and we will continue to recognize the members who make this forum what it is every month.

Sadly I can't find the video on line I was looking for that clearly shows the interference angle. Interestingly enough I can still find some news coverage of the incident where the chief praises his guys for doing everything right even though they eventually tassed the guy 3 times. The news media only showed small clips that were designed to make the police look like they were ignoring calls by the girlfriend to get their supervisor. Later on in footage not shown on the news the supervisor shows up and ultimately arrests the girlfriend taking the video.
And this morning on the news it seems that this fine gentleman's wife was just arrested for fighting with another woman. But of course these arrests were only to harass them because they video taped the police.....yeah right!

Maybe the Municipalities with the phony LODs(s*** load of!) should star putting the axe to the grind and punishing the MOTHRER FUCKERS! A lot of so called Professional FFs out there scamming the System! Big Reason why Management hates us and they don't want to hire more! Get some Balls Guys! Call the Scam Artists out for once!!!!!!

But I thought M/A was the answer? Especially when guys come back on OT of an undermanned and ill equipped Dept. to help their neighboring struggling "Brothers" out next door who have been fighting the same issue for yrs. That's all Ive ever heard from my fellow Union Brothers, "Hey we're there for you guys just give us a call." LMAO! The chickens are coming home to roost!!! Gotta love the "Union Solidarity!" It's all bullshit fellows!