Bnechis

I've often thought the same exact thing. Then it dawned on me, if you have two years at 2nd Assistant Chief, two years at 1st Assistant Chief and those two years as the Chief, that gives you six years to make progress - assuming the ones ahead of and behind you are on board. The bottom line is that a department needs to have goals that they want to achieve, for example, "we want every member trained in extrication." (This is just a hypothetical statement!) The three Chiefs have to agree on this objective, develop a plan to get it done and actually implement that plan.
As Line Officers in most departments, we aren't exposed to the administrative side of the department. We know little to nothing about budgets, disciplinary action and all of the little things outside of the fire scene. PAPERWORK - something as simple as putting a date, times, location, nature of call and actions taken - literally intimidates people. When I was Captain and I did my monthly reports, there were so many run sheets with no narrative. So many people don't realize that these "annoying" run sheets may save your a** down the road. Take five minutes to write down as many details as you can. It doesn't happen often, but occassionally a homeowner or an insurance company may want to know information about an incident, and if it isn't written down, perhaps you didn't do it!
I'm glad to see that this thread has continued to stay positive, with feedback from so many people. Good job, Bravo'ers!

John, I will develope a officers course and provide it at the county level.

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

"The plan selected by the mayor, in my opinion, will give the North Stamford area more than adequate fire protection and flexibility at little or no increase in taxes."
"More than adequate" - what standard does that meet? NFPA 1710, NFPA 1720, ISO, Fire Accredidation, etc.?
"Flexability" - to do what? What if it does not work, is that flexability to hire more without oversight?
"I do not see any difference between a responding apparatus staffed with a Local 786 crew or a Stamford Volunteer Fire Department crew."
so he cant see the difference between a 3-4 man crew vs. a 1-2 man crew.
Vinny Gambini: "Maybe you're ready for a thicker set. You sure? Let's check it out."
"The Stamford VFD plan, as I see it, will provide more flexibility in the types of apparatus that can respond to an incident..... The SFRD firefighters do not switch from one apparatus to another."
Can anyone list any major dept. that routinly jumps from rig to rig? Can it be that the team work that develops when assigned to a specific rig is better?
In baseball do the pros switch from catcher to outfield? Wouldn't this make the team more flexable?
"If they are assigned to an engine they stay on that engine. A serious road accident requires an engine and a rescue, and you're likely to get a better mix of firefighters and apparatus responding simultaneously under the SVFD concept."
So 1 ff on an engine and 1 on the rescue is better than 6-8 on an engine and rescue. Or does this flexability mean we take the rescue and leave the engine back? Hope we do not need it.
"Cost is another item that appears to be in question. Under the SVFD plan, the staffing levels will not be much different than the previous volunteer department staffing levels other than the paid chief's position."
The big question: Was the previous staffing enough? Can you show that the response of career & volunteers has met any accepted minimums?
"Thus, the historically low cost the taxpayers have enjoyed, by virtue of having their fire protection supplemented by volunteers, should not change."
True, as long as enough trained volunteers show up in a timely manor. This has not been happening, maybe it was when the author was chief.
"Volunteers are always eager to be trained to drive and operate fire apparatus, and they reach the highest levels of proficiency. For decades, this has greatly multiplied the numbers of apparatus rolling out to calls with zero cost to the taxpayer. The best example would be any one of the damaging storms that hit North Stamford. I can remember times when every piece of Turn of River Fire Department apparatus was deployed at separate locations, all manned by volunteer drivers and crews, with everyone working together as professionals to get the job done, regardless of who was getting paid and who wasn't."
Back in the good old days, this was the case. Now it appears that many of the active members are no longer showing up, maybe because they moved away. But they still know those that are left behind can do it.
This is not about getting paid or not, its about getting enough trained firefighters to an incident, the current depts are not getting the job done.

Hazmat Technician, 600 Firefighter (14,400 Hours)
NYS Level “A” Trailer Training, 200 Firefighters (3,200 Hours)
WMD Training 200 Fire Fighters (1,600 Hours)
Local In-Service Training, Dirt Bomb, Decon, Mark I, Chemical MCI, etc.
Functional Drills 250 Fire Fighters (2,000 Hours)
WMD Training 160 Fire Fighters (640 Hours)
Functional WMD HSEEP Exercise 75 Fire Fighters (600 Hours)
White Plains High School Gunman and WMD Release Exercise Squads 4, 5 & 6 plus County Hazmat, Law Enforcement and EMS
Mt. Vernon WMD Exercise Squads 1, 2 & 3 plus Yonkers Hazmat, Law Enforcement and EMS
Additional Training, approximatly 600 ff's:
Confined Space Technician
Basic Trench Rescue
Advanced Rope Rescue
Emergency Response to Terrorism – Tactical Considerations for Hazmat
NYS Advanced Hazmat Technician - 100 Fire Fighters
$200,000 Federal funding for equipment
$600,000 outside funding for training
40,000 man hours invested in training
$26m local community investment in personnel costs for training for WMD
Bus & NYS Level A Trailer
WMD, Hazmat & Collapse Training Props.
YFD Hazmat & Collapse Units
NRFD Collapse Unit
Greenville Collapse Trailer
The county use to use some of the grant money that they want to consolidate to support some of our equipment needs, such as mass decon shelters.
To my knowledge the squads do not factor in to this plan.

The WSOTF System was designed to respond with either a Hazmat Unit or a Technical Rescue Unit. Both of which are coming out of YFD (but could include any other legitmate unit).
YFD Hazmat TF responds with a minimum of 15 HM Technicians plus any squads as assigned.
One of the reasons for the establishment of WSOTF is thru drill it was determined that at a major HM incident you need a minimum of 30 - 50 hazmat techs (particularly if multiple people need decon or during summer days when everyone in suits need rotation often).
The squads must have a minimum of 6 HM Techs (1 officer)
With 5 squads, that means the system has approzimatly 50 HM Techs ON-DUTY in fire stations or on rigs 24/7.
A squad can perform one hazmat/WMD functional task at a time.
- Entry – Recon (Detection)
- Backup
- Technical Decon
- Dress Out Support / Medical Monitoring
- HM Accountability, ICS & Research
We found that to actually perform proper and timely technical decon (for entry team) it requires 12 members (2 squads). 1 sets up the technical decon while the other suits up to operate it. Then the set up team can suit up, which by that time the primary team needs relief. this way we can continue rotating decon for a number of hours.
Can either DES or the proposed DPS unit put this kind of manpower on scene in a timely manor and without OT?

The law requires providing for PPE and having policies. But the law also requires that employees must actually follow those policies. The biggest hurdle are 1) getting members to follow the policies and 2) getting the officers to be officers and not worry about being buddies.

First of 5 parts of the proposal
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 1-5.pdf
Part 2 pages 6-10
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 6-10.pdf
Part 3 pages 11-15
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 11-15.pdf
Part 4 pages 16-20
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 16-20.pdf
Final part. page 21-23
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 21-23.pdf
Sorry its so big, but there is a lot of "info" (feel free to read "info" in other words).
Special thanks to ChiefHAC for bringing this to our attention. As he pointed out, if you have issues with this, make a stink. They have one shot to get this correct or we will be stuck with it for 20 years.

First of 5 parts of the proposal
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 1-5.pdf
Part 2 pages 6-10
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 6-10.pdf
Part 3 pages 11-15
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 11-15.pdf
Part 4 pages 16-20
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 16-20.pdf
Final part. page 21-23
8-10-10ConsolidationProposalDPSDES 21-23.pdf
Sorry its so big, but there is a lot of "info" (feel free to read "info" in other words).
Special thanks to ChiefHAC for bringing this to our attention. As he pointed out, if you have issues with this, make a stink. They have one shot to get this correct or we will be stuck with it for 20 years.

Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please.

There are still close to 50,000 troops still in Iraq, Yes let's welcome our troops home with open arms but not EVERY boot is off Iraqi soil yet and then there will be an influx of PSC's (Americans) in country for many yrs to come. I would love to see NYC do something to show OUR support for the troops and not leave a doubt in their minds that we appreciate everything they have done, are doing and will do to protect our FREEDOM.

My apologies to the female firefighters for the choice of words. I was by no means being derrogatory towards you. When I used the word "balls," I was not referring to the male anatomy. There is officially no part of the male anatomy named balls and that part of the male anatomy with the nickname has nothing to do with a man's courage. I was referring to a set of traits...very hard to list, impossible to describe, but when an old timer like me is talking about a fellow Firefighter, male or female, and I say he or she has "balls," I have just told you that I truly respect your courage in the face of danger, among other traits. I am not Politically Correct nor do I ever intend to be. Political correctness often softens reality.
Capt Benz gave a good description of a "good firefighter." In the old days of only males on the job, if you asked "do you know John Doe?" and the answer came back "yeah, Good Man," it was like a secret code that says John Doe is well respected. We just haven't come up with that secret code for female firefighters. Good woman or Good Girl doesn't do it. Good Firefighter doesn't covey the full meaning as Good Man does. We are too entrenched in political correctness to come up with the right words. I do know that to get that distinction, you've gotta have "Balls."

The FDMV guys have always done good work.
It's their city leader that can't be rescued.

So some depts there are 30 years behind and others are trying to go backwards. Let me guess the depts. that went back to 4" buy 1,500 gpm pumps.

I
remember this day like it was yesterday. My dad, Tony Dragonetti, was
assigned to E-254 and worked the 9x6 tour. He was walking into the
firehouse as E-254 & L-153 were pulling out onto Avenue U. He would
have been on the roof in place of Terry Cambell who was badly burned. I was 14 and remember waking up to my mom's screams,
when she heard the news of the fire on the radio. We took a ride to the
scene from LI and found my dad sitting on the back step of 254's rig in
tears (my dad never cries). I never saw my mom hug my dad like the way she did at that
moment. I still well up with tears when I think about that scene. It
was a sigh of relief for me to see my dad safe and extremely sad at the
same time to hear him say the names of the guys that perished. I spent
my entire childhood life and beyond at the firehouse on Avenue U and these brave
men were my family and will always have a place in my heart. May they
be remembered forever and RIP......
6 NYC firefighters lost their lives at the Waldbaum's fire on August 2, 1978. This was the largest loss of firefighters in a single fire in Brooklyn. The firefighters died at the fire when the roof collapsed, and 34 others were injured. At the time, it was the worst single disastrous fire for FDNY.
The heroic firefighters who died are FF George Rice, 38, Ladder 153, FF James McManus, 48. Cov. Lt. James Cutillo, 39, 33rd Batt., FF Harold Hastings, 39, 42nd Batt., FF Charles Bouton,38, L. 156 and William O'Connor,29 of L. 156.

Time to take a closer look at Public Safety Systems that use cross trained FF/LEO's.
The number one reason stated for them is cost savings (also we can't afford a career FD).
"You get what you pay for". How many small FD's or PD's run ambulances with personnel that the take from one assignment (patrol or suppression) because they do not have enough personnel? So when there is an EMS call, do not expect a timely response for a burglar alarm or a pot on the stove.
How many FF's are needed? How many LEO's? Most of the public safety cross trained are getting away with fewer of both. If you need 20 FF's and 25 cops on duty per shift they tend to have 30 combined, which saves in the budget and is fine if you do not have calls that require both activities at the same time.
Now does it really save money for the property owners? Well the budget is less. But does that mean other things like code enforcement are not being done or is the building dept bigger to perform that function or does an outside company charge buisnesses to perform this and report it to the city? What about parking and other enforcment s which often pays for itself?
Whats the ISO rating? If you are not on the fire apparatus ISO wants 36 responders and an IC? In the station its 12 and an IC. So for a dual role system to have the same rating with say 2 engines, 1 ladder & 1 rescue they need 36 LEO's & FF's that can be released to fire duty. if they were seperate with the same rating you would need 13 in the FD leaving 23 LEO's. So we are short changing the FD since we all know thats the side thats not getting the manning.
What does this cost? In NR we determined that if we drop the onduty force from 29 down to 25 the property insurance premiums would go up $8 - $12 million per year. So saving $1m in taxes costs $8-$12m.
If its still coming out of your pocket is this a good deal?
The number one question is what level of service does this provide.
Can responders handle the training requirements and maintain effectiveness (generally thru actual working incidents and drills)to more than one discipline? Yes. what about more than two, three or four?
Can a good LEO also be a good FF? Yes
But what other roles are required of these members?
Do they provide EMS? ALS or BLS?
Hazmat? Ops or Tech Level?
Basic Rescue?
Technical Rescue?
Who does fire prevention training?
Who provides for prevention inspections/code enforcement?
What about speed enforcement (radar)?
Tactical or SWAT?
Other law enforcment specialties?
We have found that with 40 hours per week and you take out time for minimum training requirements, maintenance/cleaning of equipment/station, fire inspections and incident responses there are not enough hours left in the week to do all the specialties. Therefor we have each station specialize (hazmat, tech rescue, etc.)so not everyone has to maintain all the training. If you add patrol to the responsabilities something has to give.
Can you maintain certification in all areas and be good at all of them or are you trully a jack of all trades, master of none?
The final issue brought out in this thread is the actual response by the dept. in this thread. Any dept. (career, combo, vol or public safety) can have the same issues as brought out here; training, PPE, policies, command etc. I do not think that because this involved a Public Safty Dept. it means that all Public Safety Depts. are the same. But I do think that maintianing the training levels and more importantly the drilling and experience levels in this type of dept are very difficult.

Even better:


We are your Firefighters.
Everything we use is Low Bid
Thanks to our City Council

And this is the real problem.
How can it be safe?
What a great example this sets for the community. Because kids see this and many of us have responded to teens/young adults who thought it was ok to hand out of the car or ride on the roof, hood or trunk.
In addition to the risk to your members, what risk are you placing your community & department in? In Waterbury CT. after a fatal accident the family is sueing the apparatus opperator and the department for not enforcing a seat belt policy. Now you think its ok to climb up top past those nice warning plaques that say do not ride on the outside of the truck. If a member falls and is killed, do you think his family might sue the driver and the dept.?
How do you explain that to the taxpayers that will foot the bill.

"Its all in the "plan" the problem is all you Union guys don't understand the "plan" and are not willing to let the "plan" work.
The plan means that chiefs that burn homes to the ground because they dont want union members on there scene will still be chiefs.
The plan is the union will never know..oh wait SFRD has the tapes......unless we do our own dispatch...but thats not in the plan.
The plan solves our daytime manning by placing 15 career firefighters who are really volunteers and will remain faithful to their volunteer roots. They will still volunteer (FLSA does not bother us we can ingor that law) and they will not want to join the union or we will not let them (oh wait, Springdale tried that. Damn laws). Those 15 career ff's in 6 stations will be able to jump from rig to rig and handle everything without needing SFRD.
The plan also has those 15 positions at night but we have plenty of active volunteers at night, except of course when there is a house fire in Long Ridge.
But the plan will work because we know what is needed in North Stamford and the union does not. We are the ones for 50 years who fought all the fires without the union. Please do not tell us that after burning down a few homes and having 3 or 4 SFRD units placed into service in our district because we could not put enough ff's on the scene the the union has any right to even comment on this. No union member has a stake in this, those union members who have been assinged to North Stamford do not know anything about North Stamford.
The plan is perfect because with 15 career firefighters onduty we will be able to handle everything for ever because we will always have plenty of volunteers.
The plan will improve response times because the career "drivers" can respond by themselves and be onscene in minutes (thus stopping the clock) and all our volunteers which are all over North Stamford can get there fast from home. The plan does not need to mention that they currently have not been showing up or that responding in private vehicles to the scene creats major accountability issues and a major lack in teamwork. The plan does not need to use the SFRD model of members arriving together as a team.
The plan means that those most loyal to the VFD's and to the plan will get the biggest rewards....a job.
The hiring plan is line up single file behind PCoggs and no one should worry about layoffs in SFRD because the mayor has promised and we all know that mayors NEVER break their promises.
Most important the plan places North Stamford Volunteers above those that they swore to protect.
Why cant people understand that! Its all about us...not you and not the citizens of North Stamford.
Nothing will stop the plan and in 20 years we can have this fight all over again when the SVFD has no more volunteers and the taxpayers wont pay for a 200 man dept. so maybe 1 dept is better than 2.
I return you to your regularly scheduled rant.......

In all my years in the Fire Service what continues to amaze me is how critical decisions of how to provide the best fire protection to the public always seems to be made by those least qualified. Can someone please tell me how this so called "Plan" is devised by a group of people headed by a retired baseball coach and a small group of volunteers? If this isn't an example of broken politics and self serving agenda's then I don't know what is. Unfortunately, it will probably get wide public support simply because it is prefaced by misleading promises of better fire protection and reduced cost to taxpayers. Sadly, in the years ahead, when all the political "dust" settles and the ramifications of decimating the Stamford Fire Department become more apparent, those responsible will probably be long gone and someone else will start this insane process all over again! Hopefully, no lives will be lost along the way.
The fire service is systematically being dismantled by Politicians all over the Country under the guise of the financial crisis this country faces due to the dismal and inept leadership of those who control it's finances. We are being used as pawns to bear the brunt of the blame and the public easily buys into it. This is only the beginning and I fear it will get much worse. I can only be thankful that I am at the tail end of my career and feel bad for those who have just begun theirs. It's going to be a very rough ride and this is just one example of how bad decisions and ill conceived plans will continue to plague the fire service.

I learned last fall that many of our neighbors use the LDH to a manifold then short 2.5" to the direct tank fills. The reason given is that the LDH direct fill are often too high to safely connect and disconnect unless the hose is empty (rarely). Two 2.5" lines into the tanker one open discharge (three-way)to relieve the pressure once shut down. The two 2.5" flow plenty of water, often more than tankers are designed to be filled at. Depending on how the baffles and direct fills are configured, one must consider the pressure and flow internally and second if the air vents allow for rapid fills. Of course FD's that excel at rural water supply plan and spec apparatus specifically for their operations. Those of us who do rural water as a rarity usually slow the process with our conventional thinking and apparatus.

Yes, while the employeer does not have to pay that volunteers salary for the time, the employeer is not compensated for lost productivite, which depending on the industry can be substantial.
Nope, but I know many and there have even been many threads on here about chiefs commuting in dept cars or parking at the train stations. I do not know how many, but even with this law, I dont see that they will be coming back quickly or will use the law to go to work late. If protecting the community is so important, then maybe they should not commute out of the community.
So which law takes is correct the one that says you can or the one that says you can not? The bigger issue is when the nurse does not relieve anyone or is not relieved by some one. Then that does not apply. i.e. most OR nurses work a day shift and prior to the start of the shift there is minimal staff if any assigned to the OR.
Same deal as the nurses, day shifts have more staff and oncoming employees may not actually relive somebody. If its extreme then why no exemption in the law?
This was for municipal or commercial EMS employees and the same holds true for them as the corrections.
Then 1) This is clearly not true in CT (they pass a law that says they can) and 2) IAFF has never enforced this and its up to each local & each department to determine how they handle this.
I guess the 1,000's of IAFF members who are FDNY firefighters that volunteer never new that. So if a FDNY member is late because of a volly call does he need the law to protect his job?
Now please answer the original question: "Now we have volunteer firefighters who are employees of my career department. Does the legislation mean they can come to work late or leave work to cover calls back in their volunteer community? To cover them the citizens of my city will have to pay overtime to cover this. That means that my taxpayers (who are willing to fund proper fire protection) will be subsidizing a volunteer community that if they utilize this law (if signed) shows they are willing to let our taxpayers fund their dept."
Your answer was an attempt to say that career FF's dont volunteer and we all know thats not the truth.
1)this bill will do nothing to improve the dropping numbers of volunteers, but the politicians that cant pass a budget will use this to show that the are behind the VFD's....please reelect me.
2)If the employeer wants to fire them he just can't use the excuse you were late.....it will take him one more day to "find" a reason.
3) it allows employeers to screen out volunteers and not hire them in the 1st place.
That maybe true, but is only because the bill wont do what FASNY wants it to do........turn back the clock to the good old days when everyone worked localy and the whistle got 100 guys.

"as told to me" and "Last I heard" is very strong proof that your facts are all correct. So did they do 2,000 calls but 80% or 8,000 calls were given away? I don't think so or did the recieve 2,000 calls (which sounds about right for the population) and they gave away 80% or 1,600 calls.
Lets assume the 1st. they did 2,000 calls and they billed $400 per call (average) the collection rate ranges from 50% - 75% so your $800,000 is closer to $400,000 - $600,000.
If we assume the 2nd, then they did 400 calls and collected $200 - $300 per call or a total of $80,000 - $120,000.
So whats the correct amount:
a. $800,000
b. $600,000
c. $400,000
d. $120,000
e. $ 80,000
f. None of the above. The information is such a wild a** guess that there is no way to calculate it.
New ambulance cost more than $100,000. And you left out insurance (liability, vehicle & workers comp) which are substantial.
Because it is illegal.
Because it is illegal. And if they had not broken away and started hiring EMS staff (which was clearly needed) then they would be increasing the tax levy on you.

"as told to me" and "Last I heard" is very strong proof that your facts are all correct. So did they do 2,000 calls but 80% or 8,000 calls were given away? I don't think so or did the recieve 2,000 calls (which sounds about right for the population) and they gave away 80% or 1,600 calls.
Lets assume the 1st. they did 2,000 calls and they billed $400 per call (average) the collection rate ranges from 50% - 75% so your $800,000 is closer to $400,000 - $600,000.
If we assume the 2nd, then they did 400 calls and collected $200 - $300 per call or a total of $80,000 - $120,000.
So whats the correct amount:
a. $800,000
b. $600,000
c. $400,000
d. $120,000
e. $ 80,000
f. None of the above. The information is such a wild a** guess that there is no way to calculate it.
New ambulance cost more than $100,000. And you left out insurance (liability, vehicle & workers comp) which are substantial.
Because it is illegal.
Because it is illegal. And if they had not broken away and started hiring EMS staff (which was clearly needed) then they would be increasing the tax levy on you.

If they can change the benefits of municipal employees who have been retired, perhaps they can also reduce (or eliminate) the tax breaks they've given developers who are reaping small fortunes in the city thanks to this "generosity". Let them pay their fair share of taxes instead of dumping on the homeowners and city workers.