firecapt32

I am not sure how many of you have pulled into a job with 5-6 firefighters but let me tell you its no fun. decisions have to be made and made quickly--the lives of your firefighters depend on those decisions. second due mutual aid may be coming but its those first few minutes that are critical. From everything I have read about this job it was handled--professionally with firefighters doing what they have been trained to do since probie school--they put their lives on the line for one of their citizens.
you can criticize all you want but until you have stood in those boots and made those decisions you just don't understand.

I am not sure how many of you have pulled into a job with 5-6 firefighters but let me tell you its no fun. decisions have to be made and made quickly--the lives of your firefighters depend on those decisions. second due mutual aid may be coming but its those first few minutes that are critical. From everything I have read about this job it was handled--professionally with firefighters doing what they have been trained to do since probie school--they put their lives on the line for one of their citizens.
you can criticize all you want but until you have stood in those boots and made those decisions you just don't understand.

I am not sure how many of you have pulled into a job with 5-6 firefighters but let me tell you its no fun. decisions have to be made and made quickly--the lives of your firefighters depend on those decisions. second due mutual aid may be coming but its those first few minutes that are critical. From everything I have read about this job it was handled--professionally with firefighters doing what they have been trained to do since probie school--they put their lives on the line for one of their citizens.
you can criticize all you want but until you have stood in those boots and made those decisions you just don't understand.

Thank you Barry couldn't have said it better my self. I am not arguing that the villages get the money or that the village fire departments get the money. that wasn't the intention. Its the fact that the Town pays a lot of money for fire protection. money that could be used to equal out the Fire tax base in the Town of Greenburgh
Your right about Edgemont also Barry.

dct2
This was looked at many years ago at least 20 if I recall. They found out that the Town PAYS repeat PAYS the villages to protect the unincorporated sections of the town. Each Village gets money but guess what not all of it goes to the fire departments--the villages can keep some of the money for general funds. how much you ask!! good question . Lets just say a lot-a whole lot--lots and lots. If you really need to know ask the Town supervisor I'm sure he knows.
and the glaring question that no one is raising is why just Fairview and Hartsdale?? Maybe Barry can do a regionalization study on that and I am sure he can come up with some interesting facts and figures.
one big fire district including all the unincorporated areas sure it could work but will it be efficient and safe for the residents-- if it included all unincorporated areas taxes would equalize out--some would go up some would go down depending on where you lived.
just my thoughts

dct2
This was looked at many years ago at least 20 if I recall. They found out that the Town PAYS repeat PAYS the villages to protect the unincorporated sections of the town. Each Village gets money but guess what not all of it goes to the fire departments--the villages can keep some of the money for general funds. how much you ask!! good question . Lets just say a lot-a whole lot--lots and lots. If you really need to know ask the Town supervisor I'm sure he knows.
and the glaring question that no one is raising is why just Fairview and Hartsdale?? Maybe Barry can do a regionalization study on that and I am sure he can come up with some interesting facts and figures.
one big fire district including all the unincorporated areas sure it could work but will it be efficient and safe for the residents-- if it included all unincorporated areas taxes would equalize out--some would go up some would go down depending on where you lived.
just my thoughts

Most Fire Chiefs in the county are" management confidential" and are not part of any Firefighter local--- they maybe " honorary" members. Management confidential are not protected by any labor contracts. you negotiate your own salary ect. you are protected if you are a civil servant but all costs are yours to fund.

In this world we live in--in todays society-- we should be a tolerant and forgiving people. Having said that-- We as a fire service--and especially those in command are and must be held to higher standards. Hopefully we all learned this is Fire Officer one/two.
To show my age--things that have been said or done in the past cannot be condoned in to days society. Yes I am sure a lot of things have been said in the heat of battle or across a kitchen table that once we spoke the words we regretted saying them.
Maybe society cannot forgive and forget but hopefully we can forgive and move forward.
Just my thoughts

I'm not really looking to have a discussion but if one insues, so be it. I have noticed in a few threads recently that some people aren't able to take criticism or jest very well anymore. I would like to take this opportunity to bring back an acronym that was used by many on this site. Q.T.I.P. Quit taking it personal. Guess what kids, this is the emergency service. You are posting on a forum that is dedicated to us. If you say something out of line or just plain stupid, you will get your various parts busted. That's just how it works. Thanks for your time guys and gals. As always, stay safe.
Wisker
P.s. If you are going to be a keyboard tough guy, sign your name.

Of utmost importance for a rookie to remember is to remember.
...to remember everything he is taught and to remember it for a lifetime and to be able to bring it out of the archives of his brain at any given moment

I know the question was specifically what ONE thing rookies should know. Unfortunately it is not that simple. When I teach I try to emphasize they need to learn to follow the Marine Corps philosophy of "adapt, improvise, and overcome." In addition, whenever I teach a probie class, I hand out something I got from Lt. Tim Klett of FDNY many year ago he refers to as "The Four Ups" which all firefighters, career or volunteer, should take to heart and live by.
“Listen Up”
“When you are first starting in the fire service, there is a lot going on. You are entering a culture that is unlike any other one on this planet. You will hear stories, tales and just plain B.S. But listen carefully. That is our past talking. All of the information has value….Listen to the older, over-the-hill, past-their-prime, malcontents, for the little ‘pearls of wisdom’ that aren’t in any textbooks. A lot of important information that will help keep you safe and alive on the fire ground is not written down. The fire service is very young. We are losing our experience. The firefighters that went to fires during the war years are slowly retiring. Talk to them before they leave. We are losing our history, we are losing our past. Don’t let this happen.”
“Clean Up”
“The firehouse is your second home. Treat it as such. And if you are the junior firefighter working, you are the lowest on the totem pole. You get the dirty work….This is based on the fact that all the junior people before you did it, or should have done it. You do it until the next probie (comes along). It is part of belonging, it is doing what you should be doing. And it is always pretty funny, because in my experience, the ones that piss and moan about doing the chores usually end up doing them by themselves for a long time. But the ones that just do it…usually find that they have help. They become accepted into the “family” a little quicker.”
“Step Up”
“Be involved in your company and in your department. Attend company functions, help run them if possible….Become a productive member of your Company. Above all, go to funerals and services, especially the line of duty ones. Pay your respects. Become a part of the fire service by deed and not by mouth.”
“Shut Up”
“Spend more time listening and doing than talking about it. Show by your actions and your deeds what type of firefighter and member of this great Brotherhood you are.”

Just as it was told to me...short and sweet
Have big ears and a small mouth.
As for the why, well you can't learn anything if your lips are flapping and as a new guy it's your job to learn

There are many things rookies should know.... here is one thought I teach. RESPECT your uniforms. All 3 of them. Firefighting (actions on the fire ground), dress (actions when in class A's), and civilian (actions while off duty and wearing your FD t-shirts, hats, puffy jackets etc....)
Understand that YES you are held to a higher standard when your a firefighter. If you cannot respect this fact, understand it and live it, move on.

A couple of points (and not fully directed to you):
1) Statistically speaking, the 19 Arizona LODDs are an anomoly since we typically don't see single events with that many deaths. Subtracting them from the 2013 total you listed of 101, last year is on par with 2011 and 2012 in terms of total LODDs and the 5th year in a row under 100. This is kind of significant considering we spent 19 of the 22 years prior to that over 100 annually and that for many of those years post-incident onset deaths where not counted like they are now.
2) I agree, our LODD total is too high.
3) Although I wouldn't describe the discussion about Ellenville as "ranting and raving", we can discuss that situation and numerous others while also working to reduce LODDs. It's called multi-tasking and a lot of firefighters are pretty good at it.
4) Before we can truly make any progress on reducing LODDs, we have to identify and understand what is causing them. I repeatedly see posts in forums and comment sections trying to insinuate that what they perceive to be "unsafe" fireground operations (including non-LODD incidents) as the reason the annual LODD total is what it is.
Looking over the USFA stats for 2011 and 2012 and as best as I could decifer some of their coding, the 2 year averages for LODDs are as follows:
* During training - 8
* Vehicle related - 12.5
* On scene medical related - 10.5
* Post incident - 17
* Other, non-fire related - 21 (Includes on-duty medical related and on scene, non-fire related trauma)
* Traumatic fire related - 15 (These are the ones in which the fire or building kills us)
5) What that data tells me is that the "problem" is not predominately related to how we (collectively) fight fires. This doesn't mean we don't have stuff to learn and practice to keep this number down. To me, it means that the areas in which we need to be more focused are our health and apparatus operations. If we can get fitter (which should include keeping our most vulnerable members off the scene) and stop crashing our apparatus in the same ways over and over again, we should be able to make a sizable dent in LODDs and OTJ injuries.

Cogs, I agree with your list except for #1
"Any requirement should be based on a realistic assessment of the practical needs of the department and not necessarily what the NFPA suggests or your neighboring departments are doing"
Their are a number of issues here:
1) How can a department perform a realistic assessment of its needs if the leadership does not have the basic training or knowledge to know what they are assessing? I.E. if you have no one trained in interior operations and every fire you pull up to you hit it with a deck gun till it goes out (by collapsing and running out of fuel) how do you know what interior ops levels there are or you should be at. I remember years ago when auto extrication training was learning to cut up cars and not how to extricate people. I can tell you how many scenes I was at (as EMS) that the rescuers did more harm than good in removing the victim. And I am referring to all levels of depts. (vol, career, small, large, urban, rural).
2) There are legal minimum standards, that must be maintained. I know a number of depts. that do not meet these and they use the argument that they cant realistically meet them. If that is true, then you need to tell the public, because if you do not then you are allowing them to believe you can handle the job...in effect you are lying by default.
3) NFPA are not recommendation. They are the standards that the court will use when someone sues. NYS courts have been accepting this as have other courts. FEMA is now using them for grants and this summer ISO got the NYS Insurance Commissioner to sanction NFPA standards for the insurance ratings.
One of the 1st things that is taught in EMT is medical / legal / ethical issues and under legal its always taught that the courts look at what surrounding area individuals would do. So you are compared to the neighbors.
One reason that NYS has a volunteer & a career standard is because FASNY (which represents volunteers) did an assessment and determined that the lowest training level standards in the country are good enough to protect NYS volunteers and the communities they protect.

Not to pile on-- but there are things you can do...Career departments have had laws passes to establish the "229" for training. every volunteer organization was against this.. So you need to get your County/ State organizations moving forward. there's a lot of middle ground out there for training. you might go over the heads of local Fd's and go to the local Govt board of trustees- mayor--city council and make them get involved---but I have to say good luck with that. If you have a progressive local govt --they just might understand the problems.
just a few random thoughts

Not to start a fight, I train as many vol ff's as I do career, BUT these statements by you fellows are why the career side pushes so hard for equality in training, to call yourself a firefighter, officer or chief. Look whats happening, A officer wants to change things for the better, and he is voted out. The fire service is in a lot of trouble, it is time to wake up.

absolutely a great topic--Avon Rob is right on the money with who he mentioned. All great men in the fire service but I think I would have to bring it closer to home--and include my dad ex Chief od NTFD for it was with him that I took in my first fire. My cousin Joe Moore another family member that taught me well. Finally-- I knew I was going to be of some value to the fire service when I entered a fire building from the rear of Kaldenberg Place Tarrytown. the fire was in a hardware store that faced Broadway. I took the line with 2 members of TFD--one was Dick Nagle and the other was Allen Mazzaros. We took the line in paint cans were popping all around us fire over our heads-later I found out that theses tow firefighters just got out of FDNY probie academy I was just 18. We kicked that fires ass pretty good-- that was back in 1968 no masks--came out all snottied up --saw my dad standing there--Dick came up to my dad and said "don't worry about him pop he did you proud in there"
years later Dick and I are spending a nice afternoon up at the State Academy-ok it was at the Lodge over cocktails cant lie- he as the head of the Academy me as a NYS Fire Instructor teaching a class, we had a great laugh about it because neither of us ever forgot the incident.

absolutely a great topic--Avon Rob is right on the money with who he mentioned. All great men in the fire service but I think I would have to bring it closer to home--and include my dad ex Chief od NTFD for it was with him that I took in my first fire. My cousin Joe Moore another family member that taught me well. Finally-- I knew I was going to be of some value to the fire service when I entered a fire building from the rear of Kaldenberg Place Tarrytown. the fire was in a hardware store that faced Broadway. I took the line with 2 members of TFD--one was Dick Nagle and the other was Allen Mazzaros. We took the line in paint cans were popping all around us fire over our heads-later I found out that theses tow firefighters just got out of FDNY probie academy I was just 18. We kicked that fires ass pretty good-- that was back in 1968 no masks--came out all snottied up --saw my dad standing there--Dick came up to my dad and said "don't worry about him pop he did you proud in there"
years later Dick and I are spending a nice afternoon up at the State Academy-ok it was at the Lodge over cocktails cant lie- he as the head of the Academy me as a NYS Fire Instructor teaching a class, we had a great laugh about it because neither of us ever forgot the incident.

Jim Taxter Joe Butler Dan Berry Frank Brannigan

Lets not forget in all of this "Stuff" the fantastic job the Brothers did that night under these extreme circumstances--. rescues were made-- civilians were saved--firefighters put their lives on the line for the citizens of Mt Vernon.
To any firefighter pulling up on a scene and being told that people were trapped in side--chills run up and down your spine--your training kicks into high gear and you go to work doing the best you can. Those firefighters and Officers that night were sworn to protect the citizens of Mount Vernon and they did it to the best of their ability. 2 men 3 men it didn't matter - people were trapped and they went to work, knowing full well that at any time it could be them in trouble...it didn't matter- they did it any way. For that the people of Mt Vernon should be proud of firefighters and Officers of FDMV.
Let politics take its course--it will all shake out--but FDMV did a yeoman's job that night.
Just my thoughts

Lets not forget in all of this "Stuff" the fantastic job the Brothers did that night under these extreme circumstances--. rescues were made-- civilians were saved--firefighters put their lives on the line for the citizens of Mt Vernon.
To any firefighter pulling up on a scene and being told that people were trapped in side--chills run up and down your spine--your training kicks into high gear and you go to work doing the best you can. Those firefighters and Officers that night were sworn to protect the citizens of Mount Vernon and they did it to the best of their ability. 2 men 3 men it didn't matter - people were trapped and they went to work, knowing full well that at any time it could be them in trouble...it didn't matter- they did it any way. For that the people of Mt Vernon should be proud of firefighters and Officers of FDMV.
Let politics take its course--it will all shake out--but FDMV did a yeoman's job that night.
Just my thoughts

Lets not forget in all of this "Stuff" the fantastic job the Brothers did that night under these extreme circumstances--. rescues were made-- civilians were saved--firefighters put their lives on the line for the citizens of Mt Vernon.
To any firefighter pulling up on a scene and being told that people were trapped in side--chills run up and down your spine--your training kicks into high gear and you go to work doing the best you can. Those firefighters and Officers that night were sworn to protect the citizens of Mount Vernon and they did it to the best of their ability. 2 men 3 men it didn't matter - people were trapped and they went to work, knowing full well that at any time it could be them in trouble...it didn't matter- they did it any way. For that the people of Mt Vernon should be proud of firefighters and Officers of FDMV.
Let politics take its course--it will all shake out--but FDMV did a yeoman's job that night.
Just my thoughts

Lets not forget in all of this "Stuff" the fantastic job the Brothers did that night under these extreme circumstances--. rescues were made-- civilians were saved--firefighters put their lives on the line for the citizens of Mt Vernon.
To any firefighter pulling up on a scene and being told that people were trapped in side--chills run up and down your spine--your training kicks into high gear and you go to work doing the best you can. Those firefighters and Officers that night were sworn to protect the citizens of Mount Vernon and they did it to the best of their ability. 2 men 3 men it didn't matter - people were trapped and they went to work, knowing full well that at any time it could be them in trouble...it didn't matter- they did it any way. For that the people of Mt Vernon should be proud of firefighters and Officers of FDMV.
Let politics take its course--it will all shake out--but FDMV did a yeoman's job that night.
Just my thoughts

Lets not forget in all of this "Stuff" the fantastic job the Brothers did that night under these extreme circumstances--. rescues were made-- civilians were saved--firefighters put their lives on the line for the citizens of Mt Vernon.
To any firefighter pulling up on a scene and being told that people were trapped in side--chills run up and down your spine--your training kicks into high gear and you go to work doing the best you can. Those firefighters and Officers that night were sworn to protect the citizens of Mount Vernon and they did it to the best of their ability. 2 men 3 men it didn't matter - people were trapped and they went to work, knowing full well that at any time it could be them in trouble...it didn't matter- they did it any way. For that the people of Mt Vernon should be proud of firefighters and Officers of FDMV.
Let politics take its course--it will all shake out--but FDMV did a yeoman's job that night.
Just my thoughts