firecapt32

Great Topic, Thanks Dinosaur.
You have hit the nailon the head. Emergency Response in Westchester has cultivated a recipe for failure.
Only 1 can do it. Many can not even get 4 "interior" on the road in the first three minutes?
We can not imagine that, infact we do not want to imagine that. How many FF's in Westchester (and other counties around NYC) wear FDNY T-shirts, go to presentations from FDNY members, listen to FDNY on the scanner, but when it comes down to it we want out own little fiffedom and will fight to prevent having any real ability to handle major incidents.
There will always be major calls that will require that level of manpower. It just does not happen often. We generally do not believe in proper staging.....Whats the chance something unexpected can occur at a fire or other major emergency?
Based on the response capabilities, we can barely put a 4 man FAST team onscene, In this case you may need multiple teams. When this happens, we will have multiple LODD's and another study...but this time it will be from NIOSH showing the country what went wrong.
All of this needs to be resolved now, I fear that most will wait until the collapse.
We will get at least that to the LODD Funeral, but not the fire.
Not enough trained members per unit or per response.
Minimal training, if any
More training
the range is from none, to very qualified
If there are SOP's, there has to also be dispatch authority and that does not exist.
Good luck. Thanks for pointing this out.
Well said.

Knowing these fine professionals men and women that work at 60 control-- I am sure they would all say "just doing my job" and they all do there job in the most professional way. Robbie was in the right place at the right time, that is all a emergency worker can hope for.
Congratulations
Walter

For me based on what has been reported here, the "dynamics" of this story just don't add up to a monitor catching the act. We apparently have two colluding test takers. If they were caught cheating by a monitor, my guess is the testing in that room would have been suspended, and at the very least the two people would have been removed. Paperwork about the incident would have been filed.
There is NO WAY the cheaters would have been certified on a list, one of those two then going on to interview for promotion, and then receiving that promotion if this scandal began with a monitor catching those involved in the act.
It sounds like after the fact of promotion, further information came to light, possibly the two tests were compared, and lined up identically. This evidence, combined with some notification from an involved party, comparison of seating charts, times of departure from the test, etc. could add up to an investigation being pursued, and possibly some sort of confession.
Once again I'd ask the question; what are people thinking these days? Has greed so clouded someone's better judgement that they would put at risk possibly their entire career for the chance at making a little more money? Reminds me of the firemen who got busted growing pot, the cop with the pills up at the airport, or the other examples we have seen through the years.
Remember what you stand to LOSE by trying to game the system, before you start thinking about what you stand to gain by taking such reckless and disgraceful chances. And if you have a conscience, an act like this should hound you forever.
And a PS: Receiving promotion is a great honor. Along with the money comes great responsibility, added stress, and sometimes straining health issues. Be prepared to be overwhelmed. If an officer tells you how great you have it as a firefighter, that officer knows the difference between the two job functions. Recognize and heed words of wisdom, and be thankful for what you have. Take some time to smell the roses....

and here I thought it was four parade judges getting a better look at the men and apparatus as they went by.
just kidding---always nice to see pictures of the past and then we can see how much we have improved--at least in apparatus.

Somtimes they are right " YOU CANT FIX STUPID" NOT EVEN WITH DUCT TAPE.

great idea but knowing us we will find some way to screw it up--redo it get extra parts out of it or somthing.

Sorry...but no...not accurate at all. You might be by some basic standard be a "firefighter" but there are caveats within that realm simply put. This isn't to rattle cages..but it is what it is. I see and have seen all levels of "firefighters" in my experience as a professional firefighter, volunteer firefighter, fire instructor, EMT, Paramedic etc. And the bottom line there is a difference. All this nonsense of paid "volunteer" has me literally cracking up. Take any other person who volunteers..for example most hospitals have volunteers...if they in turn compensate for time...they are then PER DIEM EMPLOYEES, not paid volunteers. Spare me the antics with titles. Call it what it is. And the biggest blaring thing that no one has touched...if you are looking at now paying per call..you have a staffing issue...get off of it already and actually look at the staffing costs instead of spewing the sky is falling it will cost too much money routine. Then there is yet another issue...who becomes the gate keeper? Will there be an interview process for new EMPLOYEES? Or will it stay the same? How are you going to deal with the potential flood gates opening for those who want to make a few bucks and not take the process serious?
Saying a firefighter is a firefighter is like saying a doctor is a doctor. But if I'm sick or injured a person comes up and say "hi I'm doctor so and so.." that's great..but what kind of doctor is he? When did he go to school. Where did he go to school. How much has he practiced? Is he board certified? Is he a family practitioner? Podiatrist? Proctologist? Optimalogist? ...Or even better...what if he has nothing more then a PHD.
So lets get serious...I don't see very many apparatus with "XYZ Professional Fire Department" or "XYZ Combination Department" but I see quite a few "XYZ Volunteer Fire Department" or combination departments where the volunteer side on all their t-shirts, stickers and forms adds "volunteer" in front of the FD part. If you get paid for a service...you are no longer a volunteer period. You are hired help and masking yet a bigger issue.

and here I thought it was four parade judges getting a better look at the men and apparatus as they went by.
just kidding---always nice to see pictures of the past and then we can see how much we have improved--at least in apparatus.

We do raise our right hand and sware to GOD to uphold the consituation of the united States--the consituation of the State and bylaws of the organization plus the citizens of the community.
Can they sware by that??

Legal Issues, Constitutional Rights, Civil Rights, and all that other good stuff aside, there is one key word that affects all of us. It affects us whether we're paid or volunteer. It affects us whether we're Police or Fire or EMS. It affects us no matter where we work or who we work for. It's a rather simple word, but it's a word that probably has more control over us as Emergency Service professionals then any other word. PERCEPTION.
How we are perceived by the public plays a HUGE role in the level of respect and confidence we instill in the communities we serve. Perception can also be used to protect us in times of potential danger. Take for example, Line of Duty Deaths of Law Enforcement Officers. During interviews of convicted cop killers, they were asked why they went forward with committing the act of murdering a uniformed police officer. The majority said they PERCEIVED that they could overpower and overcome the law enforcement officer that was engaging them. This perception was borne out of the fact that the officer appeared unkept or unprofessional, or the officer lacked a command presence, causing the perpetrator to perceive the officer was not in control of the situation. A police officer who has a clean and neat appearance, speaks in an articulate and command voice, and looks like a well trained professional is more likely to gain compliance from individuals just based on the perception that they are a well-trained professional. Sometimes that is all takes to end a potentially violent incident. Perception can work for you or against you, it just depends what image you allow the individual you are dealing with to perceive.
The same applies to EMS providers. An EMS provider who appears to be professional; is well groomed, wearing a clean and pressed uniform, and expresses and articulates him/herself as a professional provider, will be perceived by patients and family members as a capable, well trained individual who is going to provide the highest level of emergency medical care. Now take an EMS provider who is unkept, dissheveled, and uses improper grammar and can not articulate themselves as a professional. These providers are perceived to be incompetent, which makes for some difficulty in earning the trust of our patients, their family members, and other medical providers, in both the prehospital and in-hospital settings.
Perception does not necessarily mean that an individuals perception of another is correct. You can be the a very well spoken, clean, and neat EMT or Paramedic, and still be a sub-par provider in terms of your clinical skills and judgment. But if you are a top notch provider, you may be fighting an uphill battle to win over your patient or family if you give off the wrong perception.
How does perception apply to Social Media Outlets? Well, we are public servants. Whether we are paid or volunteer, we are agents of the Emergency Service community who set out to serve the people of our community. No other group of individuals are criticized more then public servants, especially us in the Emergency Service field. How we conduct ourselves, both on and off duty, is going to lead the public who we serve to perceive us in a certain manner. I can understand why a lot of people would agree with the statement, "What I do in my free time with my personal accounts is my business". It seems like a rationale way of thinking, and eventhough we're public servants we still are entitled to our "alone time" away from our duties as public servants. But even during that alone time, when we're off-duty, out of uniform, and away from our Stations, the public still views us as a representative of whatever entity we belong to. To engage in childish, immature, and inappropriate behavior, either directly in view of the public, or through Social Media Outlets where there is always the possibility of such behavior becoming public, is going to have an extremely negative affect on how the public PERCEIVES not only the individual, but the organization as well. And it is even worse when it is a high ranking official or officer within the agency, because the leadership is entrusted to set a professional example for the rest of it's membership. If the leader acts like a buffoon, what does that say for the troops under his/her command? Combine that perception along with the line of work that we engage in. We are responsible for protect our communities, whether it be from criminals, fires, or life-threatening accidents or illnesses. Ask yourself, if you saw an individual coming to the aide or you or your family member, who just an hour before you saw was carrying on through Twitter or Facebook (or any other outlet) like an immature and unprofessional buffoon, how much perceived trust and confidence would you have in this individual before they even said a word to you? I'm all for having fun and goofing around; but there has to be boundaries. If we can't control ourselves as not just professionals, but simply as adults to conduct ourselves with regard for our status as public servants both on and off duty, then we should find a different field of employment or means of volunteering to give back to the community.

I really don't even understand how you would need quantification of such an item.
With that said, the connotations that the confederate flag holds in a majority of society is more then enough to understand why many would consider that not just unprofessional, but plain inappropriate. Is it part of history, yes. Do I think it could still be used in some ways to maintain the heritage and history of our country, yes, but bottom line is that is not a represenation of our country, that is the representation of a "country" that attempted to succeed from the United States of America in the attempt to continue the act of slavery. A confederate flag belongs on a helmet about as much as a marijuana leaf, a booze logo, those stupid coed naked stickers does. For that matter I don't even think those dumb "no fear" or "fear this" stickers belong on your helmet.
Also I wanted to add one more point about my last post. Everyone in the fire service should set an example and be professional. Fire Officers should walk the walk even more so to be able to enforce policy and procedures to stop the winers who say they are selective. But with that said, if you want to set the example on how to act...you need to look at their father...not a fire officer.

Firefighters die every year PERIOD!! This is not a game where we can only be in it when we want to. You have raised your right hand and swore to protect the citizens of your community.
You owe it to them--you owe it you your selves--you owe it to your brother firefighters--you owe it to your family--to do the best you can. Train like your life depends on it BECAUSE it does.
Put the training in place--give the firefighters a chance to reach the level--you just might see the level of training rise.
Thoses that think its ok not to train or that training is only a minimal part move out of the way because the new generation of firefighters are on their way and your blocking them.

Firefighters die every year PERIOD!! This is not a game where we can only be in it when we want to. You have raised your right hand and swore to protect the citizens of your community.
You owe it to them--you owe it you your selves--you owe it to your brother firefighters--you owe it to your family--to do the best you can. Train like your life depends on it BECAUSE it does.
Put the training in place--give the firefighters a chance to reach the level--you just might see the level of training rise.
Thoses that think its ok not to train or that training is only a minimal part move out of the way because the new generation of firefighters are on their way and your blocking them.

This may be a dumb question - but in the case of combination departments, can the department/district say that all firefighters (paid or volunteer) have the same minimum training (the 229)?
Yes they can!! The AHJ can set the standard as high as they wish as long as it meets the minium. All career departments have to meet , by law ,229 hours of training and a minium of 100 hours annually. it is also broken down in hours and subjects. Just to make it more interesting
I do have a hard time relating to combo departments that have different standards within them selves. yes I came from one and still could not understand the reasoning. it just made no sense.
It only seems ro reason that the better trained all firefighters are the better chance we have of protecting the citizens we have sworn to protect. it all seems so simple. Then we go and !@@$ it up.

Golden's Bridge Fire Department Foricble Entry Training on the Friction Force Door at the Westchester County Fire Training Center:

Enjoy

When I first got into the Fire Service ohh so many years ago. we had a fire in a building at the top of Beekman Ave. I was in the ladder company (lad 38) and working at venting the roof-after venting we were going back down the aerial ladder when I noticed a whole lot of fire apparatus, I went to the Chief who I knew pretty well actually very well I asked him what all the trucks wwere there for. answer was short and simple.
[b]"I CAN ALWAYS EXPLAIN WHY THEY ARE HERE AND TURN THEM AROU ND IF I DONT NEED THEM BUT I WILL HAVE A HARD TIME EXPLAINING WHY THEY ARENT HERE IF I REALLY NEED THEM"
I have always thought that they were pretty good words of wisdom.

The plan in place was developed by NYC and the State of New York. It calls for a "montoring/assigement" check in at Yonkers Raceway. This check in is for ALL/ANY fire apparatus going into the city including Fire Chief vehicles.
The plan call for each department so submit names at the check point so they can be run through the computer system so that only those with the proper training can respond. FDNY will be at the Yonkers checkin point as well as State OFPC.
Again the Plan was made between FDNY and the State of New York. It calls for 5 man engine and 5 man truck companies and 5 man rescues.
Those with FF1 FF2 safety/survival FAST will be allowed to respond.I believe there are other requirment.
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE NEW YORK STATE CREDENTIALS YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE CITY.
All personnel will be computer checked. If you cannot suply a 5 man apparatus you might have to join forces and team up with another department.
Westchester will only be assigned to Bronx fire stations. There is another check point set up at Citi field and another in Staten Island.
No one will be allowed in the city unles you have the "proper cerdentials" issued only at the check in points.
Again this system was a combined FDNY NYS(OFPC) joint undertaking.
Westchester units from suthern Weastchster-Yonker/Mt Vernon/New Rochelle/Greenburgh/White Plains as well as units from Pelham/Pelham Manor and the FDVA have all participiated in this intra departmental training.
I am sure that we all hope and pray that we will never have to implement this plan.

There is such a thing called "lessons learned" that comes from a post review of an incident. One of the benefits of hindsight being 20/20 is that we can look back and learn from both our mistakes and our successes. Regardless if you are a rookie or a seasoned veteran you should be willing to learn from every opportunity that avails itself. The day you take the attitude that you know all that you need to know and no one can teach you anything is the day you need to hang up your equipment and step way for your safety and the safety of those you work with. While some look at it as Monday morning quarterbacking, a true professional will look at the opportunity to evaluate could things have been done differently even if not necessarily better. Be it a trash can fire, house fire, MVA, cardiac arrest, or building collapse we should all be willing to explore what when right and what went wrong in the interest of lesson learned.

the more things change the more they stay the same

qunaity: This IS the correct spelling of the word on the fireground in the great New York area.
Edit: meaning how it is spoken.

The two pretty much go "hand in glove" don't they? I am not sure you can talk about apparatus responding to report of fires in Westchester without considering who will put out the fires. I will leave it with this thought:
Bigger apparatus isn't always better, and neither is more apparatus, its the quality not the quantity of both men and apparatus.

For professionals its all usually done at the start of the tour. For volunteers it is usually done at the chief's discretion. I find that it is much more beneficial for everyone for people who show up to look at what is occurring and to either make suggestions or to do a quick size up before taking an assignment. Obviously getting the line in place and securing water and VES should be paramount but when you have to deal with people who might not be good at ladders or not as aggressive as others it becomes an issue. Probably the hardest thing for a volunteer commander is dealing with what you 'got' when things are to be done. Of course the same problems may occur in a career setting but generally they are not as prevalent.
Seniority above all should take precedent. Doing this for 18 years has taught me a lot, but above all, doing things safely is the most important, if you see someone doing something stupid, like taking the bottom of a window instead of the top, say something, it doesn't happen often but glass will slide down that hook and cut you open, how do I know? I saw it happen! Everything in this job is the way it is cause it has happened to someone else, and unfortunately the amount of unknowns is still so numerous its scary to think about.
Stay Safe!

But there are 1,200 fire dept. employees.

OK. I'm going to bite at the dangling carrot, but I want to say I am writing this as if it was any fire district or municipality. I have no opinion of the one mentioned in the original post other then there are some very dedicated and talented personnel that work there.
Outside of the incumbent which there is at least one person who its clear would not vote for her, I have this one simple question? On average what does a 7% increase actually mean on average to the taxpayer? While its nice and I see it all the time those who are opposed to tax increases always and consistently throw out the increase in the percentage number. I mean if I weren't versed in statistics and math I would initially look at that 7% and even think to myself..."7%..that's utterly ridiculous and an unbearable and unreasonable increase!" But..being I do understand statistics, math and even how statistics can be turned to support or defend a cause, I know that 7% overall really means nothing but a number. I've seen 10 and 15% tax increases that people were up in arms in and when in a college government class, we broke them down and found that it equated to a tax increase no more then what equated for homeowners to a pack of cigarettes a month (yes NY prices) or 3 lattes. And it can also be shown that cost increases for more staffing can be offset with savings on fire insurance premiums.
If you look at any district or municipality there are things that flat out simply cost money, personnel being a huge one. Pension and health care costs have risen sharply every year. Equipment needs to be maintained or replaced, buildings need maintenance and in many of our cases needed to be replaced 10 years ago..not 10 years from now.
I have no intimate details about the hartsdale fire district so I cannot comment on them...and even if I did I wouldn't as its none of my business or my concern being I don't work nor live there. All I can say is that if the tax increases were a huge problem for people they would find a way to either change leadership or become active in the discussions. There are laws that require certain types of disclosure and I'm sure they'd have to be meeting it or someone would be on top of that. Also on a side note, why not have polling stations on every corner..there are those that don't vote for president, governor etc and they don't make it any easier for them. Even fire commissioner elections are governed by similar principles.

I've been thinking this over the past few days and here are my issues. For one even at 18 most people haven't fully developed their life skills. There are a ton of life skills that you must have or have some basis for that will develop while in the emergency services field. I just don't think that the 16 year old age up to 18 that someone has the full mature level to deal with situations that can and more then likely arise. I know I wouldn't want a 16 year old's head between the legs of my signficant other during child birth or undressing a trauma patient. I'm not stereotyping but lets face it..most just learned how to drive. I enter the marine corps at 17 and turned 18 while in boot camp. Different scenario because its well controlled but I saw out of boot camp in schooling and the fleet of the pitfalls of some who didn't have good life skills and the trouble that it in turn became.
Now with that said as an instructor I've seen both sides of the 16 year old in classes. I've had some who could climb over any wall and were some of that best students I've had...and there's more that I wanted to put through a wall then the latter I mentioned. And the majority of it simply came down to maturity. I know of some decent youth programs that they are allowed to ride during calls...it gives them just enough to do to make them feel part of it without having to (not always necessarily) worry about their lack of life and maturity skills. That doesn't go without saying that there aren't times that I or my colleagues haven't had to speak up because some have no bounds or filters with their mouths. If your truly looking at lowering ages to increase recruitment....you have much bigger problems that need to be addressed. The military has recruitment problems at times...but they don't lower their requirements to take 16 year olds.