M' Ave

I'd like to comment on his interview, but I have to head to work go shine my car.

Wax on, wax off!

I think the concern about Mutual Aide is less about the frequency of use, or the lopsided nature of M/A (requesting more than responding) than it is about being properly prepared for most incidents.
If Mount Vernon requests M/A twice as often, so-be-it. Maybe they've had a rash of large multi-alarm fires. (This is all hypothetical) That to me doesn't seem like the issue. The real issue rests in whether or not a Fire Department can handle the routine fires without constantly calling outside agencies. If an urban, city fire department can't handle an "All-Hands" or even 2nd alarm fire, without outside help....they're understaffed.
Mutual Aide should be reserved for extenuating circumstances. Multiple serious fires in remote locations, simultaneously or an unusual and extensive multi-alarm fire. Everyday operations or (i hate this term) "routine" fires should be able to be handled by that municipality. The members of FDMV (and any dept.) deserve to be properly staffed.
I'll also note that the # of apparatus responding isn't even remotely as important as the # of personnel. How many engines to you typically need to supply handlines at a private dwelling fire? Probably 1, but we'll say 2, just in case. Ladders? 2 trucks is probably sufficient to provide roof access and a second means of egress. It's the personnel carried by later arriving apparatus that is important, not the vehicles themselves. We'd all like to see more companies and more men, but I'll take more men and fewer companies if forced to choose.....

Do not fool yourself, taxes will not go down. Just because those local taxes are no longer paying for the fire service does not mean that they will come back to the people. Governments are very good at finding more things to pay for with existing money.

Photos from today's NYPD REMA (Retired Emergency Man's Association) Day of Remembrance at the NYPD SOD Facilites at Floyd Bennet Field in Brooklyn.
All photos by me.

Okay, we went off on a tangent over a staffing comment.
The KEY point I was trying to make is that many small departments have good, dedicated people who are underutilized. I know, I was a volunteer in more than one place, just like that. By combining departments and enlarging response areas, we give those people more responsibility, responsibility that I'd bet they crave. I know I would have.
In doing so, we give people more activity and residents get more people responding on the initial call for service. Win. Win.

^^^^^
Okay....Idon't get it. You're the first fireman I've ever heard defend their understaffed operations. You're taking this personally and that means you're taking it wrong. 1 or 2 rooms of fire, a few grabs and only 5 guys? You're gambling and a lot of things aren't getting done.
If 5 can get the job done, why does my job have
1 Chief
5 Line Officers
and
23 Firemen
ON THE INTIAL RESPONSE FOR FIRE?
We're lucky too, to have the staff we do and we should have more. EVERYONE should have more.
This is not a personal assesment of you or the other brothers you work with. You clearly do a lot with little staffing, but it's an extremly dangerous situation. You don't have enough eyes on the outside and you have NO HELP if anything goes wrong.
5 is FUNCTIONALLY useless and doens't even meet NFPA/OSHA, ect. It is dangerous and the powers that be are careless in allowing you to operate with so little support.

Listen, I hear you, but 5 just ain't enough for anything. I'm not saying that you and your guys don't do all you can and work hard. I'm saying that 5 firemen is scarcely better than 0.
By the books....if you arrive on an Eng. with 5 guys;
1 is running the pumps
1 is an officer (who ideally shouldn't be humping hose)
3 firemen (one of whom has to stay outside with the pump operator to comprise a safety team until a FAST unit arrives)
So...you have an officer and 2 firemen on a line. Who's searching? Who's checking the rear and who's able to coordinate venting from the exterior?
You guys might bust your humps and thats great, but 5 guys just isn't effective and if you're looking to improve your staffing, you should be screaming about safety and effectivness to the elected officials who rarely give adequate value to our safety and operations.

I think the concern about Mutual Aide is less about the frequency of use, or the lopsided nature of M/A (requesting more than responding) than it is about being properly prepared for most incidents.
If Mount Vernon requests M/A twice as often, so-be-it. Maybe they've had a rash of large multi-alarm fires. (This is all hypothetical) That to me doesn't seem like the issue. The real issue rests in whether or not a Fire Department can handle the routine fires without constantly calling outside agencies. If an urban, city fire department can't handle an "All-Hands" or even 2nd alarm fire, without outside help....they're understaffed.
Mutual Aide should be reserved for extenuating circumstances. Multiple serious fires in remote locations, simultaneously or an unusual and extensive multi-alarm fire. Everyday operations or (i hate this term) "routine" fires should be able to be handled by that municipality. The members of FDMV (and any dept.) deserve to be properly staffed.
I'll also note that the # of apparatus responding isn't even remotely as important as the # of personnel. How many engines to you typically need to supply handlines at a private dwelling fire? Probably 1, but we'll say 2, just in case. Ladders? 2 trucks is probably sufficient to provide roof access and a second means of egress. It's the personnel carried by later arriving apparatus that is important, not the vehicles themselves. We'd all like to see more companies and more men, but I'll take more men and fewer companies if forced to choose.....

Ya know....yeah, it usually is. When you're in Westchester County, you're living in someone's little fiefdom. Someone's little slice of the pie and it's a ridiculous exercise in redundancy. I'm paying my property tax bill (which is insanely high) and wondering why they're always asking for more money, but there are fewer cops and the roads are like the surface of the moon.
Too many Chief's, not enough Indians.....lets streamline the operations around here and put our money and manpower to better use.
It's all about ratio's with the fire service. We DO have some good resources here, so lets expand their scope of coverage and better utilize them. We could use an analogy that would apply to many volunteer departments around here:
Lets say Dept. A has 5, reliable and involved members and that department answers 2 calls a day. Dept. B next door also has 5 reliable and involved members answering 2 calls a day. Well, 5 guys is useless...and those guys would probably jump at the opportunity to do more with their dedication. So, COMBINE those depts. and you've got 10 solid guys handling 4 calls a day. You've doubled your available manpower and simultaneously increased staff utilization by 100%. In the process, you could eliminate half the chief's and their vehicles, probably a firehouse to maintain and a redundant vehicle or two.
But....that'll never happen, because everyone is too interested in protecting their slice of the pie....

Ya know....yeah, it usually is. When you're in Westchester County, you're living in someone's little fiefdom. Someone's little slice of the pie and it's a ridiculous exercise in redundancy. I'm paying my property tax bill (which is insanely high) and wondering why they're always asking for more money, but there are fewer cops and the roads are like the surface of the moon.
Too many Chief's, not enough Indians.....lets streamline the operations around here and put our money and manpower to better use.
It's all about ratio's with the fire service. We DO have some good resources here, so lets expand their scope of coverage and better utilize them. We could use an analogy that would apply to many volunteer departments around here:
Lets say Dept. A has 5, reliable and involved members and that department answers 2 calls a day. Dept. B next door also has 5 reliable and involved members answering 2 calls a day. Well, 5 guys is useless...and those guys would probably jump at the opportunity to do more with their dedication. So, COMBINE those depts. and you've got 10 solid guys handling 4 calls a day. You've doubled your available manpower and simultaneously increased staff utilization by 100%. In the process, you could eliminate half the chief's and their vehicles, probably a firehouse to maintain and a redundant vehicle or two.
But....that'll never happen, because everyone is too interested in protecting their slice of the pie....

Ten House is a really special circumstance. I've worked there once or twice as a detail. Great guys, had a great tour there recently.
Here's the deal....that firehouse is a living memorial, a tourist destination and certainly highly visable. It's hard to even respond on alarms from there. The moment the door go up, they're mobbed. They have to put signs out telling people not to cross the apparatus door threshold. They have to use ropes to stop sidwalk traffic to pull out.
It's a revolving door and I'm sure that it can be too much at times.
**To anyone visitng NYC and planning to visit a firehouse:
Please visit us! We're happy to chat, talk a little shop and maybe give a quick tour. However, if you're in the know, (and you are 'cause you're on this site) visit off the beaten path a bit. Give the guys in Times Square and The World Trade Center a break if you can.

Ya know....yeah, it usually is. When you're in Westchester County, you're living in someone's little fiefdom. Someone's little slice of the pie and it's a ridiculous exercise in redundancy. I'm paying my property tax bill (which is insanely high) and wondering why they're always asking for more money, but there are fewer cops and the roads are like the surface of the moon.
Too many Chief's, not enough Indians.....lets streamline the operations around here and put our money and manpower to better use.
It's all about ratio's with the fire service. We DO have some good resources here, so lets expand their scope of coverage and better utilize them. We could use an analogy that would apply to many volunteer departments around here:
Lets say Dept. A has 5, reliable and involved members and that department answers 2 calls a day. Dept. B next door also has 5 reliable and involved members answering 2 calls a day. Well, 5 guys is useless...and those guys would probably jump at the opportunity to do more with their dedication. So, COMBINE those depts. and you've got 10 solid guys handling 4 calls a day. You've doubled your available manpower and simultaneously increased staff utilization by 100%. In the process, you could eliminate half the chief's and their vehicles, probably a firehouse to maintain and a redundant vehicle or two.
But....that'll never happen, because everyone is too interested in protecting their slice of the pie....

Okay, we went off on a tangent over a staffing comment.
The KEY point I was trying to make is that many small departments have good, dedicated people who are underutilized. I know, I was a volunteer in more than one place, just like that. By combining departments and enlarging response areas, we give those people more responsibility, responsibility that I'd bet they crave. I know I would have.
In doing so, we give people more activity and residents get more people responding on the initial call for service. Win. Win.

I understand completely. Ten House is the Mecca of the firefighting world due to the event that unfolded on its doorstep. I don't blame them for the ropes and for the chaos that happens around them daily. I really don't even care to see the inside for the house, I just want to look at the rigs like every other buff in this great nation. Those guys saw Hell unleash (literally) in front of them. It just sucks that they are so overwhelmed by John Q. Public that they can't spare the extra moments for those of us that actually care and want to have a real conversation with them. I'm sure if I went there when the tourists are at a lull I'll have better luck....then again, there's so many f---ing tourists there!

Ya know....yeah, it usually is. When you're in Westchester County, you're living in someone's little fiefdom. Someone's little slice of the pie and it's a ridiculous exercise in redundancy. I'm paying my property tax bill (which is insanely high) and wondering why they're always asking for more money, but there are fewer cops and the roads are like the surface of the moon.
Too many Chief's, not enough Indians.....lets streamline the operations around here and put our money and manpower to better use.
It's all about ratio's with the fire service. We DO have some good resources here, so lets expand their scope of coverage and better utilize them. We could use an analogy that would apply to many volunteer departments around here:
Lets say Dept. A has 5, reliable and involved members and that department answers 2 calls a day. Dept. B next door also has 5 reliable and involved members answering 2 calls a day. Well, 5 guys is useless...and those guys would probably jump at the opportunity to do more with their dedication. So, COMBINE those depts. and you've got 10 solid guys handling 4 calls a day. You've doubled your available manpower and simultaneously increased staff utilization by 100%. In the process, you could eliminate half the chief's and their vehicles, probably a firehouse to maintain and a redundant vehicle or two.
But....that'll never happen, because everyone is too interested in protecting their slice of the pie....

Ten House is a really special circumstance. I've worked there once or twice as a detail. Great guys, had a great tour there recently.
Here's the deal....that firehouse is a living memorial, a tourist destination and certainly highly visable. It's hard to even respond on alarms from there. The moment the door go up, they're mobbed. They have to put signs out telling people not to cross the apparatus door threshold. They have to use ropes to stop sidwalk traffic to pull out.
It's a revolving door and I'm sure that it can be too much at times.
**To anyone visitng NYC and planning to visit a firehouse:
Please visit us! We're happy to chat, talk a little shop and maybe give a quick tour. However, if you're in the know, (and you are 'cause you're on this site) visit off the beaten path a bit. Give the guys in Times Square and The World Trade Center a break if you can.

Thanks tsull. I think I was working for that

I was in a bar talking to a friend whom I had met when he and his family visited my firehouse several years earlier. As we talked, we were approached by 4 drunk guys who said they were "firefighters from London Fire Brigade here on holiday". They had overheard us talking, realized I was a Firefighter, and wanted to know if my firehouse was close by so they could visit. I said "no problem, the firehouse (not mine) is at 48th and 8th" (54 Engine/Ladder 4). I even told them to specifically ask for my friend, Steve, who was working. Out of the bar they stumbled and a 1/2 hour later I got a not-so-nice text from Steve telling me what he thought of me sending the guys for their "visit". I thought it was funny.

Ten House is a really special circumstance. I've worked there once or twice as a detail. Great guys, had a great tour there recently.
Here's the deal....that firehouse is a living memorial, a tourist destination and certainly highly visable. It's hard to even respond on alarms from there. The moment the door go up, they're mobbed. They have to put signs out telling people not to cross the apparatus door threshold. They have to use ropes to stop sidwalk traffic to pull out.
It's a revolving door and I'm sure that it can be too much at times.
**To anyone visitng NYC and planning to visit a firehouse:
Please visit us! We're happy to chat, talk a little shop and maybe give a quick tour. However, if you're in the know, (and you are 'cause you're on this site) visit off the beaten path a bit. Give the guys in Times Square and The World Trade Center a break if you can.

Ten House is a really special circumstance. I've worked there once or twice as a detail. Great guys, had a great tour there recently.
Here's the deal....that firehouse is a living memorial, a tourist destination and certainly highly visable. It's hard to even respond on alarms from there. The moment the door go up, they're mobbed. They have to put signs out telling people not to cross the apparatus door threshold. They have to use ropes to stop sidwalk traffic to pull out.
It's a revolving door and I'm sure that it can be too much at times.
**To anyone visitng NYC and planning to visit a firehouse:
Please visit us! We're happy to chat, talk a little shop and maybe give a quick tour. However, if you're in the know, (and you are 'cause you're on this site) visit off the beaten path a bit. Give the guys in Times Square and The World Trade Center a break if you can.

Not that M' Ave needs someone to back up his statements, but in my experience this is 100% true. Some of the most welcoming houses I've visited were in completely off-the-path areas of Brooklyn and Da' Bronx, simply because they aren't easy to get to, and they appreciate the effort and attention. I still BS now and then with a few of the guys I met in Brooklyn a year or two ago.

Ten House is a really special circumstance. I've worked there once or twice as a detail. Great guys, had a great tour there recently.
Here's the deal....that firehouse is a living memorial, a tourist destination and certainly highly visable. It's hard to even respond on alarms from there. The moment the door go up, they're mobbed. They have to put signs out telling people not to cross the apparatus door threshold. They have to use ropes to stop sidwalk traffic to pull out.
It's a revolving door and I'm sure that it can be too much at times.
**To anyone visitng NYC and planning to visit a firehouse:
Please visit us! We're happy to chat, talk a little shop and maybe give a quick tour. However, if you're in the know, (and you are 'cause you're on this site) visit off the beaten path a bit. Give the guys in Times Square and The World Trade Center a break if you can.

And ISO require departments without on-duty in the station staffing to respond with 15 members to get the same credit as they give your dept. with 5 members.

Trains stop at "Stations", we work in fireHOUSES
If you had a poor experience at any of the shops you visited, that's a shame. Remember, ya never know what kinda day they were having and sometimes the revolving door of visitors is hard to deal with. I'm not regularly assigned to work in Midtown, but I have on occasion and while everyone's happy to chat and entertain visitors, it's hard to get other work done and sometimes it's overwhelming.
I'm not trying to dissuade visitors, we welcome it. Shame there was a bad experience, ya just never know how that day was going...
As for the NYPost article, correct, the member quoted was not a "Probie". The NYPost, journalistic beacon of integrity, took some posts from the "FDNYRant" (which is the worst thing ever) for that article and called them "quotes".
All in all, some guys are not happy with the Open House, and I understand it, but it's a couple of hours for some positive PR on a Saturday. We'll live.