What constitutes a LODD?

[efd184 59]

would this be considered a LODD?

he was on a lunch break from training so isnt he on duty?

[Moderator addition] link to memorial thread:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?s=&s...st&p=126442

link to news story on incident: http://www.wpbf.com/news/15474521/detail.html

[/Moderator]

[x129K 1,393]

I was thinking the same thing!

I think it SHOULD be...If I am on the clock - regardless of weather I am on meal or not...I am on the clock.

[efd184 59]

I hope for his family that the department steps up and classifies it as a LODD!

[Guest]

some "LODD" are not actually line of duty deaths, but i think a dept will consider it LODD simply when a person recieves full honors including the death benefits for the family.

[jack10562 414]

First, what a terrible ordeal!

While technically not a LODD, however it happened during the course of the work day, so, he was "ON DUTY."

As such, his death should be regarded with the same recognition and honors.

Additionally, his family should be afforded any and all support required, as well as eligibility for all State and Federal benefits that may be available to the surviving spouse and children.

[helicopper 1,050]

Interesting question - there seem to be two categories used synonymously with LODD

Death While On Duty - as the case here

Line of duty death - killed fighting fire, killed by suspect, etc.

Not an important distinction except to the lawyers and benefits people who will seek to pay out as little as possible to all involved!

[EJS1810 7]

From what I have read, he was off duty and at lunch with his family. While tragic, I do not believe this is Line of Duty. It is similar the the Waterbury CT Battalion Chief who was shot & injuried durring a bank robbery last week. Both were conducting prersonal business on thier own time and got caught in the wrong place at the wrong tim.

[tonyc856 16]

It is a tragic event .... but no where did it say he was on duty ... If this happened on his shift during a meal break ... then it was a LODD in which he will get full benifits.

But reading this ... it seems he was on his own time and nt working at the moment, so, he can't claim benifits.

And for those who are about to say we are always on duty 24hrs a day ... well ... wish you be able to use that for a claim, but the insurance co's don't see it that way.

[ny10570 745]

I would like to see him receive LODD benefits, its no different from a posthumous promotion. However if I get hurt on my lunch break, I know I'm on my own, so I'm assuming death would carry the same lack of benefits.

[jcoppola 52]

Why should we even question it? If a member is on duty, eating, sleeping, firefighting, in-house or off-location, on an extended heart and hypertension leave, on way to work or on way home from work, jabbed with a dirty sharp and passes 5 years later, he/she died in/through the performance of duties, thats it. It is pretty clear-cut the way I see it. If a member dies trying to rescue a person while off duty, the municipality should have the decency to cover them LODD, but we all know what could happen with that.

JVC

[helicopper 1,050]

Why should we even question it? If a member is on duty, eating, sleeping, firefighting, in-house or off-location, on an extended heart and hypertension leave, on way to work or on way home from work, jabbed with a dirty sharp and passes 5 years later, he/she died in/through the performance of duties, thats it. It is pretty clear-cut the way I see it. If a member dies trying to rescue a person while off duty, the municipality should have the decency to cover them LODD, but we all know what could happen with that.

JVC

Unfortunately we have to question it because it is never so cut and dry. Who is covered when traveling to/from work (on their own time and in their own vehicle)? Our department has had members get into accidents under such conditions and none were ever considered LOD.

If an FF is the victim of a random crime while off-duty how do we reach the conclusion that it is line of duty? Mind you, I'm just playing devil's advocate!

There have also been instances of police/fire members being denied disability benefits because their injury/condition was not related to police work/fire-rescue work! A couple of cases that come to mind, a PO slips on ice in the parking lot of his HQ and injures his knee. A PO assigned to communications wrenches his back in the radio room. Jobs will always try to find the cheap way out!

[jcoppola 52]

Unfortunately we have to question it because it is never so cut and dry. Who is covered when traveling to/from work (on their own time and in their own vehicle)?

We are covered 1 hour before shift start and 1 hour after shift end. Not sure if it is a state thing or not, but at least we are covered in case of an accident commuting.

[FirNaTine 370]

Your right Chris192, Jobs will always try to find the cheap way out especially when there's so many of us out there that aren't legitimately injured and are looking for the easy lotto ticket. Sometimes we're our own worst enemies. I favor Depts. and Municipalities investigating those they feel are abusing the system. Screw'em. Throw them in jail and make them pay back every cent they received. These individuals are just going to make it harder for those guys who are honestly injured to collect down the road. This goes for all occupations.

[jcoppola 52]

Your right Chris192, Jobs will always try to find the cheap way out especially when there's so many of us out there that aren't legitimately injured and are looking for the easy lotto ticket. Sometimes we're our own worst enemies. I favor Depts. and Municipalities investigating those they feel are abusing the system. Screw'em. Throw them in jail and make them pay back every cent they received. These individuals are just going to make it harder for those guys who are honestly injured to collect down the road. This goes for all occupations.

That happened in CT a few years ago. A member was working a side job while on disability from a FD job. Urban ledgend says that he was found out through the use of a private investigator. He was fired and I think the termination stuck.

[FirNaTine 370]

That happened in CT a few years ago. A member was working a side job while on disability from a FD job. Urban ledgend says that he was found out through the use of a private investigator. He was fired and I think the termination stuck.

Good! That's what I'm talking about! Most of these bums are usually lazy and could care less about the Job anyway. They're more of a hinderance than an asset in their profession.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why should we even question it? If a member is on duty, eating, sleeping, firefighting, in-house or off-location, on an extended heart and hypertension leave, on way to work or on way home from work, jabbed with a dirty sharp and passes 5 years later, he/she died in/through the performance of duties, thats it. It is pretty clear-cut the way I see it. If a member dies trying to rescue a person while off duty, the municipality should have the decency to cover them LODD, but we all know what could happen with that.

JVC

Since career Depts (in NYS) have manditory retirement age, this would apply more to vol. ff's; Is it realistic to consider it a LODD when an 89 y/o volunteer who is on cardiac meds, and has a host of other medical issues who responds to a fire and is directing traffic when he has "the big one" ?

a) should he have been allowed to participate in the 1st place?

Is the duty the cause of his death or its being 89 with cardiac issues and it was just his time?

[tonyc856 16]

Since career Depts (in NYS) have manditory retirement age, this would apply more to vol. ff's; Is it realistic to consider it a LODD when an 89 y/o volunteer who is on cardiac meds, and has a host of other medical issues who responds to a fire and is directing traffic when he has "the big one" ?

a) should he have been allowed to participate in the 1st place?

Is the duty the cause of his death or its being 89 with cardiac issues and it was just his time?

Well all firefighters both Vol and career need to pass a physical exam too so at that age amd medical cond I hope the dr didnt make him a int FF

[biglew 3]

This is an interesting discusion. I am not sure its always that the municipality tries to take the cheap way out. I will give you some examples. Bear in mind Chris192 is correct, there are LODD's and deaths while on duty. They are categorically different, although most belive the benefits should be the same.

remember the NY State trooper killed up in Oneonta a few years back. He was off duty in a supermarket when there was an armed robbery at the store. Now we all know, that he was killed in the performance of his duties and correct me if Im wrong, but it was categorized a LODD. I remember the department funeral and honors.

Police officers are more apt to get invloved of duty than firefighters. Obviously, we have seen many off duty FF's stop to render aid at MVA's building fires, etc. But luckily, most off duty intervention does not result in death to the off duty member. As we know with PD, many an officer or trooper have been killed off duty, while in the performance of their duties.

The lunch break thing is a gray area. In some jobs, you are clearly on your own time. In other places you eat the compnay meal on the clock and are on duty all of that time. I have yet to hear definitively what the story was here. Was he working that day ( training ) and in uniform on lunch break? Was he done for the day? Its somewhat unclear. Either way it is a tragedy and the department should do the right thing.

But for those who say the depts always want to take the cheap way out, I beg to differ. I have seen first hand, where members that have died from cancer, non job related, were promoted on their death bed, ( they were on the list to be promoted but werent reached yet) so that the survivng spouse could get better death benefits. And thats not even job related, let alone on duty.

Bottom line is that if your engine company is shopping for the company meal at the local supermarket and the memeber gets hit by a car while walking back to the rig, he/she is ON duty, and in uniform and it is an LODD as far as benefits, on the clock is on the clock, yet if they are on their day off, driving, and have to pull someone out of a burning car and die in the process when the gas tank blows, I dont think ( NOT SURE, HELP ME OUT HERE GUYS) its classified as an LODD. If I am right and they died in the performance of their duites, I believe it should be. But then you have the problem of a paid FF being 20 miles away from his work town off duty and dying on a highway? Not sure how that can be LODD for that department though.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well all firefighters both Vol and career need to pass a physical exam too so at that age amd medical cond I hope the dr didnt make him a int FF

1) Not every dept actually does this.

2) I said he was directing traffic not interior FF

The bigger issue is at what point is a death no longer LODD, and just the inevitable

[ex-commish 490]

The lunch break thing is a gray area. In some jobs, you are clearly on your own time. In other places you eat the compnay meal on the clock and are on duty all of that time. I have yet to hear definitively what the story was here. Was he working that day ( training ) and in uniform on lunch break? Was he done for the day? Its somewhat unclear. Either way it is a tragedy and the department should do the right thing.

But for those who say the depts always want to take the cheap way out, I beg to differ. I have seen first hand, where members that have died from cancer, non job related, were promoted on their death bed, ( they were on the list to be promoted but werent reached yet) so that the survivng spouse could get better death benefits. And thats not even job related, let alone on duty.

/quote]

First let me say my thoughts and prayers go to his family and may he rest in peace. This is a horrible tradegy.

According to the USFA fatality notice it stated he was on a lunch break during a training day.

[helicopper 1,050]

quote name='biglew' date='Mar 5 2008, 05:15 PM' post='126794']

The lunch break thing is a gray area. In some jobs, you are clearly on your own time. In other places you eat the compnay meal on the clock and are on duty all of that time. I have yet to hear definitively what the story was here. Was he working that day ( training ) and in uniform on lunch break? Was he done for the day? Its somewhat unclear. Either way it is a tragedy and the department should do the right thing.

But for those who say the depts always want to take the cheap way out, I beg to differ. I have seen first hand, where members that have died from cancer, non job related, were promoted on their death bed, ( they were on the list to be promoted but werent reached yet) so that the survivng spouse could get better death benefits. And thats not even job related, let alone on duty.

/quote]

First let me say my thoughts and prayers go to his family and may he rest in peace. This is a horrible tradegy.

According to the USFA fatality notice it stated he was on a lunch break during a training day.

First, I didn't say always! Most departments will try to the do the right thing by a member who passes away - if they can. The promotion probably won't change the State or insurance company payouts a whole lot, unfortunately. The State and Federal agencies who are responsible for determining LOD don't care what rank you are - they're going to debate whether or not it was LOD.

Second, who says cancer is not job related in a firefighter? With all the crud you guys inhale and get exposed to (and that's just in the firehouse kitchen ) who's to say whether or not it caused cancer or other illnesses.

Truly is a sad incident and I too hope he rests in peace!

[Oswegowind 17]

What about us radio guys? Can't we get cancer and other illnesses from breathing in the nasty stagnant air filled with computer exhaust? Would that put us in line for LOD?

[biglew 3]

Calm down chopper guy !! The MOS who died from cancer happened to be a trooper, I never said cancer cant be job related, just wasnt in this case.

As far as radio guys, is that stagnant air or "hot air" that comes through the speakers? LOL

On aserious note, yes, we all agree the LT's death was tragic and the circumstances that surrounded it made it even more tragic.

[SDaly64 1]

I just recieved this email from IAFF.org:

It is with deepest regret and sorrow to report the line-of-duty death of Lieutenant Rafael Vazquez of IAFF Local 2928 - Professional Fire Fighters and Paramedics of Palm Beach County, Florida. Brother Vazquez, 42, died on Monday, March 3, 2008 of a homicide while on break from a mandatory training class for newly-promoted officers. The funeral will be Friday, March 7, 2008 at 11:00 a.m. at the Cruzan Amphitheater, 601-7 Sansbury's Way, West Palm Beach, Florida 33411, (561) 795-8883. Expressions of sympathy or condolences can be sent to Local 2928 at 2328 S. Congress Avenue, Suite 2C, West Palm Beach, FL 33406.

[firemoose827 324]

Just some more food for thought on this topic. But first, I want to express my condolences to the fallen and his family and that I hope his children are ok and not taking it personal. God bless you all.

Second, and correct me if Im wrong, but when Im working my PT gig with EMS on weekends, and Im eating my lunch, if a call comes in I have to respond. I cant sit there and tell dispatch "Sorry, Im off duty eating lunch, tell them to hold on another 20 minutes."

If this brother was at work, eating lunch, hes on duty...correct?

Thirdly, and correct me yet again if Im wrong, but with us vollies, our insurance covers us from the moment the tones go off and we respond, untill an hour after we call back in service at the firehouse, allowing us time to get back home from the call. They capped it at an hour after calling in service so that no one could monkey around and do crazy things and say they were on their way home from a call and get covered.

[Capejake72 8]

I don't believe Lt Vazquez (RIP Brother) was actually "on-duty" that particular day, however the initial reports from several of the service journals said he was attending Dept. training, and may well have been in some sort of uniform (perhaps why he was shot first?) he might have been off-duty for lunch (I'm technically off the clock on my lunch hour, though I'm still available for calls) and not working his scheduled shift, but for the purposes, I would call dieing while on a training day, on my lunch hour, still LODD

[JCESU 20]

Interesting question - there seem to be two categories used synonymously with LODD

Death While On Duty - as the case here

Line of duty death - killed fighting fire, killed by suspect, etc.

Not an important distinction except to the lawyers and benefits people who will seek to pay out as little as possible to all involved!

Thats a good interpretation. Most agencies and the Politicians that make the decisions would make the appropriate call. Some because its the 'right thing to do' but mostly because of the public relations backlash that would follow in the media if they denied benefits and honors for a person that gave their life for their community.

[OnTheWheel 43]

A PO assigned to communications wrenches his back in the radio room. Jobs will always try to find the cheap way out!

He did in fact those benefits and changed the 207c policy statewide, it now covers anything while youre working, before it was while working in a "hightened risk" situation, ie pursuit, arresting subject etc. The trouble is, the people before us who have milked the system make it harder for people who are legitimatly hurt to get the benefits.