Proper use of Scott strap question

[Tanker 10eng 140]

For the past week, each time I open the EMTBRAVO site, I see the picture of the officer coming down a ladder at what looks like a call… great shot and a nice action photo of the firefighter…

BUT, each time I see it, one thing that drives me crazy is the Scott pack’s waist belt, which is loose and hanging down behind him… ( I know many guys, allot of my FDNY buddies, do not like to buckle that strap, for one reason of another… ) My question is WHY ????

It also appears that the waist strap has a holder for the regulator also, but I might be wrong… My BIG problem with this practice is, what if, while he is going down the ladder, the strap buckle gets caught up on the frame work of the ladder, and his forward motion is pulled back and he looses his balance and falls off the ladder… might never happen, BUT it could

The white helmet shows he is an officer, shouldn’t he set an example to his men and wear it ???

Thoughts from others ?

[Future Fireman 4]

My .002 cents:

You got the straps on the pack, you use every single one of them!

Mike

[robert benz 344]

HERE WE GO!!!!! I was wondering how long it was going to take before the safety police started, while you are at it his coat isnt buckled all the way up, his neck flap isnt in place he isnt wearing his hood, are those nfpa gloves? maybe he should be walking down the ladder backwords instead cus he might trip and fall, GIVE ME A BREAK

it is a pic of one second in time you can what if it to death, I am sure if the dept he works for has a problem with any of it they will deal with it.

[FFD941 20]

HERE WE GO!!!!! I was wondering how long it was going to take before the safety police started, while you are at it his coat isnt buckled all the way up, his neck flap isnt in place he isnt wearing his hood, are those nfpa gloves? maybe he should be walking down the ladder backwords instead cus he might trip and fall, GIVE ME A BREAK

it is a pic of one second in time you can what if it to death, I am sure if the dept he works for has a problem with any of it they will deal with it.

Thank You

[Guest JHK3605]

everyone has a right to their own opinion to question and try to learn on here !!! Does that mean you dont wear a seat belt because you can get away with it?????

[x635 4,066]

This photo was posted because it was a great action shot, and not to get disected. But, we don't censor discussion here as many believe.

I think there is a valid point here in regards to the straps getting caught and position going down the ladder.

This is the reason why some departments hate digital photography, and photos of their fires being posted. Because it opens them up to critique, from those that weren't there and don't have all the facts. It catches all the errors for everyone to point out.

Do we do the job by the book every time? No. This officer probaly has more fire experience then most of us, expecially the second poster on this thread. BUT, the question is....in firefighting, do we do things the way we are taught, the way we train, the way the SOP's or manufacturers say we should do them, or do we freelance and do whatever is the most comfortable or be lazy? If you teach a class, do you teach when to wear the straps and when not to?

This was posted on FirefighterCloseCalls.com by Billy Goldfeder:

Someone once said that a picture is worth a thousand words... the GALLERY SECTION purpose is to HELP US ALL THINK about how we operate. We clearly understand that some pictures DO NOT always show the entire scenario-and these pictures aren't here for entertainment-they are here to help us learn. We try to be careful when selecting the photos that you send us... however, on the other hand, if these photos provide insight to similar conditions that any FF may encounter, that picture may make a big difference moments later to another FF--and that's why this section is here. Consider sending us your CLOSE CALL photos with applicable to details to billyg@firefighterclosecalls.com.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I was wondering how long it was going to take before the safety police started

I would not say safety police, just point out one thing that I feel is extremely dangers.... I did not point out about the coat, lack of hood, or gloves.... as I don not find that a major issue, and i have fallen to not being perfect either... I was mainly asking about the danger of a hanging waist strap and coming down an aerial ladder...

pic of one second in time, you can what if it to death

yes it can be what " if " ed to death, but that one second, could lead to his death...

GIVE ME A BREAK

I am NOT attacking that officer personally in any way shape or form, I do not know him and have no problems with him... I just stated the danger of not wearing the Scott pack's straps while doing any operations above the ground.... If the picture was of him standing in front giving orders, and the straps hung down, I would not of cared.... but he is on an aerial ladder, and maybe by pointing this out to the younger/ newer guys, on the forum, that may think its cool because the more senior guys do it...., may give them the break, or opportunity to see what can really happen if you do not do things as taught and trained... If one guy agrees with this thought and starts always wearing them, then something was gained by this post...

the question is....in firefighting, do we do things the way we are taught, the way we train, the way the SOP's or manufacturers say we should do them

well we should... If a manufacturer, Scott, tells the purchaser to wear the waist belts all the time, if your are trained to use them that way and it is written in the SOP ( or SOG's as some depts. have, do to legal reasons ) how you are to operate with a SCBA, and you fail to do this..... who's fault is it ? Just say he ( or any other firefighter ) were to fall off that aerial ladder, and a lawyer representing the Town ( city or Village ) in a legal suit, gets a hold of the picture, the fire fighter has no leg to stand on, as he was not using the equipment properly, he was not operating according to the SOP, and was not doing the job as he was trained.... the law suit may not favor well in his case....

So I brought this up, just to give people a heads up.. NOT TO PUT THIS OFFICER DOWN, OR NIT PICK

[abaduck 123]

HERE WE GO!!!!! I was wondering how long it was going to take before the safety police started, while you are at it his coat isnt buckled all the way up, his neck flap isnt in place he isnt wearing his hood, are those nfpa gloves? maybe he should be walking down the ladder backwords instead cus he might trip and fall, GIVE ME A BREAK

it is a pic of one second in time you can what if it to death, I am sure if the dept he works for has a problem with any of it they will deal with it.

Cap, I do see where you're coming from. Monday morning quarterbacking a split-second shot and all that. But as long as we're running ~100 LODDs per year, and God knows how many injuries, maybe a little safety policing isn't such a bad idea...

Forget the photo - by my lights, it's a legit question more generally. I was taught to use all the straps, I'm gaining experience and I've found that I like the waist strap quite tight myself to take some weight off my shoulders. But you do see a few guys who seemingly seldom use the waist strap at all. Why? It's a fair question, if there's something to be gained by it I'd like to know.

[jd783 64]

I for 1 like to always use the waist straps, this takes the weight off of your shoulders and tranfers it to your hips( center of gravity) as we all know we have enough to carry without making it any harder My 2 cents I really don't care how everyone else wears their packs

[pasobuff 38]

I used to do a lot of fire photography, and some of the things I used to see would probably make you cringe. Haven't had much time for it in the last few years - I should try to dig out some old photos though and scan them.

Photos are a great way to 'see and learn'.....and the question of responsibility and/or liability are good ones. If there were to be an incident/injury - the photos would most probably be called into play - OSHA, NIOSH etc would probably end up using them. Insurance companies too.....

Everyone loves those action shots- but I feel that especially the newer members need to be taught how to PROPERLY don and wear their gear when at a scene. Older, wiser, more experienced members should set an example.

Remember we are all human - I know I have not always worn every piece of gear I was supposed to - maybe left the gloves off because it wasn't condusive to what I was doing etc. Waist belt, well, maybe because of my physique I find it easier to wear the belt and support the pack....although the strap almost always gets in the way of the pockets of my turnout coat....so I can't use the pockets.

In my position now, though, I have a responsibility to make sure all my gear is worn properly, because I have to set an example. Not only that, but I also need to make sure that I do not become a casualty in any way, and I sure don't want to be photographed doing so!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I'm gonna agree with JD here. I wear the waist strap simply because it takes weight off your shoulders and back. (And because my fire 1 instructor flipped out on anyone that didn't, thereby indoctrinating me) Most of the practical reason that its there is to prevent back injuries, which are the more likely than not the cause of most Fire Service early medical retirements. Do I wear it everytime? No, but I do most of the time and I probably should all of the time. If a firefighter never wears it, he shouldn't be at all surprised when he develops back problems later in his career.

Edited January 18, 2009 by SageVigiles

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

It def takes the weight off of my shoulders. And like others have stated there are times when I dont use them... but than again I dont see any real reason not too...

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I always hear guys using the excuse "oh well, in the event I go down, its easier to fashion into a rescue harness in between the legs because its already unbuckled!"

Truth be told, its actually easier to make that rescue harness out of the straps if they are worn in the correct fashion, because they don't flop around and get lost behind a victim, or wedged between the patient's back and the pack itself, God forbid they DO go down. Then it takes more effort to get the straps out from under them, then adjust them, and get the patient packaged. At least if they are worn correctly, you know where they are, and saves time!!

This is merely secondary to what the above people have mentioned. It does take a great deal of weight off of your shoulders, and will save your back a lot of stress/strain in the long run!

[tonyc856 16]

Safety Police is a real wrong word ... makes it sound as a whole we don't take safety seriously. As far as the question I agree, it’s a legit one. I think all straps should be used that’s why they are there ….. more so that cup for the regulator should be used when regulator is not on the face piece. Last think you want to breathe in is crap that in that regulator when you need it.

[x635 4,066]

I'll admit, I've done it myself, and here's the proof (way back in the day). Why? I think it's because I wasn't anticipating I was going to use the pack.....still, no excuse.

[robert benz 344]

Cap, I do see where you're coming from. Monday morning quarterbacking a split-second shot and all that. But as long as we're running ~100 LODDs per year, and God knows how many injuries, maybe a little safety policing isn't such a bad idea...

Forget the photo - by my lights, it's a legit question more generally. I was taught to use all the straps, I'm gaining experience and I've found that I like the waist strap quite tight myself to take some weight off my shoulders. But you do see a few guys who seemingly seldom use the waist strap at all. Why? It's a fair question, if there's something to be gained by it I'd like to know.

there is nothing to be gained by not wearing the waiststraps we all know why we are supposed to wear all the straps.

Is that pic going to make anybody who wears the waiststap suddenly stop wearing it, no. And if you dont wear it is that pic going to change what you have already been taught / heard no.

If you are a firefighter and the officers above you dont correct your actions, shame on them, if you are an officer and the chief doesnt say something shame on him /her /them.

If the "person" doing an unsafe act not wearing ppe/ scba/ seatbelts is advocating to other members I dont wear it you shouldnt either then you have a much bigger problem.

I just dont think stating the obvious "proper use of scba straps". He wasnt wearing his and all the replies that go with it "takes the weight off" etc, all because of one frame of one pic, we have no idea when in the incident this took place,

if you dont like what he was doing set your own example dont do what he was doing.

[robert benz 344]

my answer could lost in the post so here it is again

my point is you knew the answer or the way it is supposed to be worn before you asked it. you already knew what could happen to the question about the straps before you stated it. For that matter every one on here that is involved with wearing a scba has been taught how to wear it and why you should wear it and what could go wrong. So by stating something like that about the pic was not going to change anything those that wear them right are going to continue to wear it the right way, those that arent are not going to change thier minds based on this pic.

Honestly how many veiwing that pic had to ask themselves is he wearing his scba correctly, and I wonder what could happen if one of those staps got stuck in the railing? If you already wear it correctly then you arent going to change a thing, if you CHOOSE to not wear it correctly and your dept or officer doesnt correct you then this pic and the comments are not going to change your behavior.

If you are an interior firefighter and you dont know the answer to those questions prior to seeing it in a pic, then you were not trained properly when you were introduced to wearing an scba.

I am not advocating unsafe practices, all I am saying is "we" are very quick to judge others based on a pic. Nothing happened to that Firefighter to say that the straps were not buckled.

As far as leading by example, I have had the pleasure of working with GREAT firefighters who never buckled their waistbelts but knew their job on the fireground, and less then great FF'S who knew how to get dressed and that was about all. (that is a whole other topic for another day) and yes their are guys who know how to wear their scba/ppe correctly and are great firefighters.

I would have much rather seen something along the lines of Could this pic be of use in a firefighter 1 class to show BRAND NEW RECRUITS (a very select group that is just learning about PPE and SCBA) "DO YOU SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE"

[Guest ECAFD3]

you know what drives me crazy? Why do you guys care if theyre strapped or not ? that officer has been a firefighter for many yrs and knows what hes doing. im sick of all the keyboard commandos writing esp when its about people who are way more experienced . i agree safety is very important but come on how many deaths or even injuries have your heard of because of unbuckled waist strap.

[robert benz 344]

everyone has a right to their own opinion to question and try to learn on here !!! Does that mean you dont wear a seat belt because you can get away with it?????

I am not telling anyone not to learn on here, what I made a statement about was, is that pic going to change your behavior, based on the comments from this group, either you wear it right or you dont, but I dont know when this pic was taken , at what part of the incident, and I am sure he knows all about weight and safety.

Also since you asked me directly, I wear my seatbelt and my waiststrap and I tell all the members they should also, so no I dont try to get away with anything. and I dont think that was on the mind of this firefighter ohhh I am getting away with not wearing my waistbelt I hope someone takes my pic so It can be talked about on EMTBRAVO

[Guest Firediver]

I thought it just made you look "Salty"

Edited January 18, 2009 by Firediver

[RDUNC67 1]

you know what drives me crazy? Why do you guys care if theyre strapped or not ? that officer has been a firefighter for many yrs and knows what hes doing. im sick of all the keyboard commandos writing esp when its about people who are way more experienced . i agree safety is very important but come on how many deaths or even injuries have your heard of because of unbuckled waist strap.

I don't think the majority of the people reading this (or posting) are questioning the officers qualifications or experience, what i would question is the issue of "deaths or injuries" from a waist strap, take a good look at the photo in question, if the waist buckle or even the regulator holder was to get caught up in the cross bracing of the aerial could someone lose their balance or even worse fall over the side??, if the waist buckle is connected it is one less thing to go wrong. At the end of the day things like this will always come down to personal preference.

[markmets415 524]

I don't think the majority of the people reading this (or posting) are questioning the officers qualifications or experience, what i would question is the issue of "deaths or injuries" from a waist strap, take a good look at the photo in question, if the waist buckle or even the regulator holder was to get caught up in the cross bracing of the aerial could someone lose their balance or even worse fall over the side??, if the waist buckle is connected it is one less thing to go wrong. At the end of the day things like this will always come down to personal preference.

Excellent point Chief

[robert benz 344]

I would not say safety police, just point out one thing that I feel is extremely dangers.... I did not point out about the coat, lack of hood, or gloves.... as I don not find that a major issue, and i have fallen to not being perfect either... I was mainly asking about the danger of a hanging waist strap and coming down an aerial ladder...

yes it can be what " if " ed to death, but that one second, could lead to his death...

I am NOT attacking that officer personally in any way shape or form, I do not know him and have no problems with him... I just stated the danger of not wearing the Scott pack's straps while doing any operations above the ground.... If the picture was of him standing in front giving orders, and the straps hung down, I would not of cared.... but he is on an aerial ladder, and maybe by pointing this out to the younger/ newer guys, on the forum, that may think its cool because the more senior guys do it...., may give them the break, or opportunity to see what can really happen if you do not do things as taught and trained... If one guy agrees with this thought and starts always wearing them, then something was gained by this post...

well we should... If a manufacturer, Scott, tells the purchaser to wear the waist belts all the time, if your are trained to use them that way and it is written in the SOP ( or SOG's as some depts. have, do to legal reasons ) how you are to operate with a SCBA, and you fail to do this..... who's fault is it ? Just say he ( or any other firefighter ) were to fall off that aerial ladder, and a lawyer representing the Town ( city or Village ) in a legal suit, gets a hold of the picture, the fire fighter has no leg to stand on, as he was not using the equipment properly, he was not operating according to the SOP, and was not doing the job as he was trained.... the law suit may not favor well in his case....

So I brought this up, just to give people a heads up.. NOT TO PUT THIS OFFICER DOWN, OR NIT PICK

according to your comment's you are only concerned because he was on a ladder with his straps undone, so if he was injuried in front of the building with his straps off he shouldnt have to worry about lawyers, because I am sure the manufacturer clearly states that is ok.

everyone is making the same point, SAFETY!!! we have all have been taught why we wear the straps so to bring it up, who are you telling it to??? the officer who was going down the ladder??? the guy who does it right?? oh the guy who knows better that does it wrong anyway??

I understand you stop the little things and maybe the big things wont happen, but this topic about this pic probably wont change how anybody operates, unless you are going to say something to the problem firefighters in your own fire dept. And if that is the case, you do say something in your dept, and it changes one person, why the hell did it take a photo in 2009 to to wake you up???

[markmets415 524]

where is the picture located so I can see what all the fuss is about?

[robert benz 344]

where is the picture located so I can see what all the fuss is about?

taken down / replaced

[markmets415 524]

taken down / replaced

thanks Capt. I was looking around it without any luck, as stated by Chief Duncan it is preference, should the strap be worn yes, there is a reason why it is there other than for looks.

[JTF429 37]

The original poster asked a question to generate some discussion on a post, so what I didn't see it as taking a shot at anyone. We see pictures online, in trade publications, in classes and talk about it. So its a career officer so what. Nobody questioned how many years he had on the job or anything about him. ECAFD3 you asked how many LODD occured because of an unbuckled waist strap. Does it matter if it is 1 or 20. If this was a firefighter from kalamazoo would you be getting all bent out of shape? AJ :angry:

[Remember585 815]

Would you question the instructions of wearing a parachute from that manufacturer before jumping out of a plane?

Sometimes our comfort is second to doing what we're suppost to do...

It's not just about you either. Any firefighter or Officer who chooses not to wear his gear right or do what their rules tell them increase the risk factor to everyone there. If you don't wear your straps the right way and get caught up and call a Mayday, guys are coming to help you. How are you going to feel if those guys get hurt or killed coming to help you simply because you weren't wearing a stupid strap?

The same thing goes for those that don't choose to wear their seatbelts. It's not just about you. If you're driving and not wearing your belt, what are the chances you'll stay in your seat and have control of that rig, possibly reducing the amount of damage to the rig and injuries to your brothers, if you start losing control?

Nothing we do impacts just one person. Remember that.

[64FFMJK 21]

where is the picture located so I can see what all the fuss is about?

post with the photo in it

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopi...mp;#entry166094

Now do I think its a big deal. Yes and No. By looking at all the pics it looks like most of the FF's from City of Poughkeepsie are not wearing the straps. Now am I going to cry about i no I won't but I will raise hell the first time that they complain about the way a volunteer does something since it seems that carer FF's can do no wrong when a volunteer asks a question he gets called safty police. Maybe if we had Safty Officers at scenes then we would not have such a high number of LODD's.

As I was instructed at the NYSDOCS academy once you get complacent about the job thats when you get killed. The same applies to the fire service.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

To be honest I think you are all right and being I know both of you who had the first and quick subsequent post and I highly respect both of you.

Should you wear the waist strap..absolutely. It is the proper way to wear the device and keeps the weight on your hips which is designed to reduce fatigue. I also often discuss that it is easier to find th e strap in the event you have to be put into the SCBA harness as taught to FAST members if it is buckled in place instead of free floating. I also try to limit the amount of things hanging from me and my gear when operating as I don't want to have any increased chance at becoming entangled.

With that said and there is where I agree with the Capt....if you department doesn't have a policy addressing its use you can't do crap about it. So if you know it is the right and correct thing to do and you are management or a leader...get the right things in place to get your people to do it and to enforce whether they are doing it or not.

So is it the correct thing to wear it...yes. Is it the end of the world? Only if you department has a policy outlining the use of the SCBA and they don't enforce it.