Who's On Your Engine or Truck on Relocation ?

[FIRECHIEF63 55]

The topic started here is to find out some direction of question in the Topic Title.

A little background on the subject, the other day a local Fire District was requested to respond to another District's firehouse for stand-by coverage on a relocate and the requested Department responded with only two individuals, a Driver & an Exterior/Support member, on the rig and were met at the Stand-by station by one of thier Asst. Chiefs... So, in reality what was this rig that relocated ready to handle should they had to go to a AFA, Structure Fire, MVC or even an EMS Call ???

So here are the questions this topic brings out that I would like to have some input from all you out there on.

Should an Engine or Truck when they are dipatched to a neighboring District for stand-by relocation coverage be staffed with just anyone?

Just a Driver?

or Fully Staffed with Qualified interior people in every seat?

and

Should they all come on the rig?

or Can you have Engine or Truck respond and have the proper personnel meet that rig in the relocate station?

and

Who Decides this?

The District being requested?

or The District Requesting the coverage?

What is your protocol and who decided it??

I welcome all and any comments and thoughts on this topic.

Thanks in advance..

Edited January 1, 2010 by FIRECHIEF63

[x129K 1,393]

That apparatus should have never left 'the barn"................

It should respond with a minimum of one driver and two firefighters.....and by firefighters, I mean someone that can do every aspect of firefighting..

[firecapt32 282]

My thoughts on the subject--every department should sit wiith the neighboring departments and work out a plan,on what to send and what is expected upon arrival. 60 control should be aware of this and act accordingly. If the incident is prolonged Control should have the list complete to at least a fourth alarm. A community calling on its neighbor for help with a fire should expect at least 5 to 6 interior qualified fire personnel plus and a supervisior per appartus called. An incident command system should be in place and a command post in operation. Remember mutual aid works both ways.

Again just my thoughts I am sure there are are more thought out there.

[TAPSJ 30]

In my opinion you should have 3 interior firefighters, a driver, and then the rest with exterior. It would be a miricle if you filled it with all interiors. We are Volunteers not everyone is around 24/7. Personally it should be the driver saying hey I can respond to a fire with these guys or gals and call County Dispatch and request a dispatch for interiors to respond. If you do respond that way I would notify County Dispatch to notify Command because they might need interiors at that seen. I personally would rather have everyone and thier mother on the road and return them with THANKS then God forbid lose a brother or sister on a job.

Thomas

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Our rig roles with a qualified driver at least, with qualified personnel in tow, but more often than not with an interior qualified FF in the shotgun seat, and since we do not have cabs that fit more than two there is usually a trail of pov's with qualified members meeting up at the other departments barn.

Typically the requested departments OIC will decide staffing unless something specific is requested from the home department.

Edited January 1, 2010 by FiftyOnePride

[mdm911 5]

A few more questions that arise in my mind;

Would you have gotten the same response if the mutual aid company had been dispatched to respond to the incident scene to help? (ie get to go to work)

What if the incident took a turn for the worse and the relocated engine was then requested from the station to the scene to help?

How much help would they have been?

Does the incident commander have any idea of the staffing of the engine during the incident or is he unaware of whether the engine has five interior firefighters or only an exterior driver?

If a volunteer department wants to be seen on the same level of professionalism as area paid departments, they need to respond like the paid departments. Otherwise area departments (paid, volunteer or combination) are going to stop requesting departments that only send two exterior members and request an engine from a paid department where they know they will get a minimum of two interior firefighters(most likely three to four) right away that can go to work. This is not an anti-volunteer statement at all. I know that some volunteer departments in the county have a large number of well qualified members that respond at all hours and other departments are doing the best that they can. However, we need to use some common sense, if a department cannot send an acceptable number of interior personnel, do the right thing and notify the county. If I were in charge of a department and two exterior members responded (to relocate or to the scene) I would have to think twice about requesting them in the future. If the department notified the county and passed the call onto another department, I would have a lot more respect for them. Just because they were unable to respond once, does not mean they will never be asked again. I think everyone understands certain times of the day are better or worse for a volunteer response.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Two interiors AND a SEPARATE driver should be the bare minimum. Driver does not count as an interior firefighter when he's driving.

[Guest]

1 driver 1 officer and 4 interior all the time in my old house

[FiftyOnePride 100]

A few more questions that arise in my mind;

Would you have gotten the same response if the mutual aid company had been dispatched to respond to the incident scene to help? (ie get to go to work)

What if the incident took a turn for the worse and the relocated engine was then requested from the station to the scene to help?

How much help would they have been?

Does the incident commander have any idea of the staffing of the engine during the incident or is he unaware of whether the engine has five interior firefighters or only an exterior driver?

Q#1: Slightly more, but more often than not, no.

Q#2: The last several M/A calls I have participated on, the number of qualified people (1-2 Drivers,4+ qualified members each time, and at least 1 Officer) would have been more help then what others have described.

Q#3: See #2.

Q#4: Not 100% sure, I know if we request M/A to fill our barn, the IC or officer delegated the responsibility knows.

Edited January 1, 2010 by FiftyOnePride

[x129K 1,393]

What is an acceptable staffing level for a career apparatus to respond to a fire?

Let's face it - here in Dutchess, career or volunteer - no one is responding with a safe amount of trained members..but as luck would have it - for the most part, we manage...all of us. I feel for the guys in the FFD, PFD, and other area jobs - the staffing is borderline criminal. Sad thing is it is not just this area, it is all over the world.

Again, sending an apparatus with "exterior" helpers is plain silly, and I agree with your points there for sure..but some expecting an apparatus with a driver, an Officer, AND 5 guys....unrealistic in the volunteer and career world north of Yonkers.

Departmental Chiefs have to set a policy of what they expect from incoming mutual aid...bottom line...

[mdm911 5]

Q#2: The last several M/A calls I have participated on, the number of qualified people (1-2 Drivers,4+ qualified members each time, and at least 1 Officer) would have been more help then what others have described.

I just want to make sure I understand you right. You are saying that you have been responding with 6+ qualified members? If you don't mind telling, where is this? I do not know if I have ever seen 6, 7 or more qualified people on a mutual aid rig (paid or volunteer) in the Poughkeepsie/Hyde Park area at least. It would be awesome but I haven't seen it.

Edited January 1, 2010 by mdm911

[x129K 1,393]

Mark - it is not untypical to have upwards of a dozen firemen from a mutual aid department end up at a fire. They may not all get there on a rig, but they do show up. More often than not I drive MY truck to calls, as I can never make a rig, even living within a few minutes of the firehouse.

[IzzyEng4 427]

No matter what type of department you are a member of, it should be staffed with qualified personel. In my opinion, you rig should be staffed with a minimum of four persons with the breakdown of an officer, driver, and two firefighters, all who are interior qualified. Three persons would be an acceptable minimum with the driver beign interior qualified. This way if the driver has to "beach the whale" then the three on the rig can go and do interior work if the pumper / aerial is not needed to operate at the scene.

At my vollie company we always tried to have 3 or 4 on teh rig before we did a transfer or atleast make sure we had someone meeting us at the cover station whether it was one of our members or another one from another company. Where I work, we only have two firefighters on our rigs (only a engine and truck are staffed). Obviously a little issue there in my opinion but you can only do so much with cutbacks.

[DCJPells 29]

All departments sending personnel to stand by at other locations should send members who can do all the jobs from that location that may be normally encountered.

As to the expectation of what should be sent? What is expected from your own department? Do you send one person (driver) out on a rig for a call or worse yet an actual structure fire? Do you man your station at all times? Can you respond and arrive to your own calls within national standards? It seems some want better then they provide on a regular basis (my own Department included). So be realistic in what you want from others.

It is not always easy or practical to send the adequate number of FF's on a standby on the rig. If it is coordinated with members in POV's following or meeting at the standby, it should not be an issue.

I agree with the exterior FF's position. Any officer wants All around (interior) FF's so they can use them as necessary. Nothing is worse then having a lot of members but ones who can not go interior and be short with interior members. It is a false sense of security.

The best is to coordinate wants and needs with each other (regionalization?) to serve our customers (citizens, taxpayers) and do your jobs the way it should and needs to be done, which we are entrusted to do. Not hide under kingdoms and fears or hold grudges and favoritisms.

[Remember585 815]

Not knowing anything about Dutchess County, but speaking of our own neighborhood...

Just a couple of thoughts running through my head.

1. You should have the courtesy to send at least what you would expect when making the request yourself.

2. Relocates should be treated like a scene response, because you could very well end up going to the scene.

3. On a COUNTY LEVEL, we should all be sending the same minimum crew, whatever we all decide upon.

4. Don't abuse the system. I know some places lack personnel to handle "simple" incidents, and call upon Mutual Aid to cover them while they handle something "simple," which (for paid and volunteer guys) can become a nuisance.

5. If you can't provide a minimum crew of capable, QUALIFIED personnel, MAN UP and state you can't handle it. It's more respectable not to send a crappy crew then it is to response / relocate with one.

A while ago, the Chiefs in our Battalion met and had a discussion as to what the minimum personnel expectation should be per apparatus. We have lived up to our end of the "suggested policy," and when we call for assistance we would expect the same. (Luckily we've had it)

Every call we go to, whether in our own neighborhoods or on Mutual Aid, is a reflection on the organization as a whole. Sending a lack of personnel or a group of unqualified personnel makes you look like a group of unconcerned, "living in fantasyland" misfits. If you relocate with a sub-par crew and you're dispatched to another emergency that you can't handle...who loses?

Not to mention it could trigger a heated EMTBravo discussion, as we've seen before...

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I just want to make sure I understand you right. You are saying that you have been responding with 6+ qualified members? If you don't mind telling, where is this? I do not know if I have ever seen 6, 7 or more qualified people on a mutual aid rig (paid or volunteer) in the Poughkeepsie/Hyde Park area at least. It would be awesome but I haven't seen it.

Not on the rig, but overall, yes, no bs.

Edited January 1, 2010 by FiftyOnePride

[Bnechis 3,961]

My thoughts on the subject--every department should sit wiith the neighboring departments and work out a plan,on what to send and what is expected upon arrival.

Agreed and that plan is or should be the mutual aid plan.

If the incident is prolonged Control should have the list complete to at least a fourth alarm.

Agreed, but 1st we need to define an alarm. How many engines, trucks, and support units and how many firefighters (note: I did not say interior, because everyone else is just a helper) and officers make up that 1st alarm? By almost any standard, its a minimum of 2 engines and 1 truck (or squad, if laddering is not an issue based on construction, these members are assigned truck functions)and a minimum of 16 firefighters and officers.

Many depts that send 3,4 or more units on a 1st alarm consider a 2nd alarm another 1 or 2. This is wrong. If you do not have enough rigs to double the 1st alarm, then you can not send a 2nd alarm without mutual aid. We have forgotten how fire alarms were historically established:

Before radios and phones fire telegraph street boxes was the way we got called. Every box had a number, when someone activated the box the number was transmitted (to horns on the fire station, bells in the fire station, and to tapes). The number was sounded (same as some VFD's that still have horns) and based on the box number, you would look on the wall (or in a little book) to determine what rigs went and where to box was located. Once on scene if the chief decided he needed more help he would send a ff to reset the 1st box or run down the road to the next box to strick the "2nd Alarm". When this number came across and you looked up on the wall it told you who went, if the 1st due was alread out. If the 1st alarm was 2 steamers, 2 hose wagons and a city service truck, then thats what was also sent on the 2nd, because you did not know till you got onscene if you were going to help or you were going to another incident just down the road from the 1st. We need to follow our history on this one, instead of trying to make do with less and less.

A community calling on its neighbor for help with a fire should expect at least 5 to 6 interior qualified fire personnel plus and a supervisior per appartus called.

Of the 58 departments in Westchester, which ones send that many interior ff's + supervisor per rig to calls in there own district 24/7/365? I think its a little unrealistict to have dept's send more help on M/A then it sends to its own calls.

[firefighter36 52]

What is an acceptable staffing level for a career apparatus to respond to a fire?

Let's face it - here in Dutchess, career or volunteer - no one is responding with a safe amount of trained members..but as luck would have it - for the most part, we manage...all of us. I feel for the guys in the FFD, PFD, and other area jobs - the staffing is borderline criminal. Sad thing is it is not just this area, it is all over the world.

Again, sending an apparatus with "exterior" helpers is plain silly, and I agree with your points there for sure..but some expecting an apparatus with a driver, an Officer, AND 5 guys....unrealistic in the volunteer and career world north of Yonkers.

Departmental Chiefs have to set a policy of what they expect from incoming mutual aid...bottom line...

Doesn't our county (Dutchess) have a Task Force System specifically desgined to revolve around having adequate, trained staffing responding on mutual aid calls? Why isn`t this isn't applied to ALL alarms, not just mutual aid?

On another front, mutual aid is even a grey area, since so much of it is essentially "automatic" aid to see if we can get a rig to even respond in some areas of the county. Furthermore some aid is anything but mutual, with one department providing aid to others consistantly, and not receiving it back as such. Until departments and their commissioners, officers, and members alike can assure a response of propoerly staffed equipment that meets the lay of the land, building construction etc. of their jurisdiction, paid, volunteer, or some combination therof, we have a lot of room for improvement.

After reading the on-time ratings in the 2002 Boston Globe report, I would be interested to see what the staffing levels (or average staffing level) was in each department as well.

Also, to all of the Career Brothers here, we train in 5-6 person "Companies" in the Academy, probably for instructor liability reasons, why is it that when we get on the line we work in 2-3 person companies? Is there any liability that comes back on those who dictate the staffing of apapratus?

Edited January 1, 2010 by mbendel36

[Danger 160]

Also, to all of the Career Brothers here, we train in 5-6 person "Comapanies" in the Academy, probably for instructor liability reasons, why is it that when we get on the line we work in 2-3 person companies? Is there any liability that comes back on those who dictate the staffing of apapratus?

My academy used three person companies and when a team was operating as an engine company, one person had to operate the pump. Made things a lot more realistic then some of the six man search drills I've done in the past.

Maybe this is a good time to ask a question I've wondered about for a long time. How come when a fire chief violates NFPA 1403 resulting in a firefighter's death he is sent to prison but no chief nor city council has ever been prosecuted for willingly violating NFPA 1710 resulting in a firefighter's death?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe this is a good time to ask a question I've wondered about for a long time. How come when a fire chief violates NFPA 1403 resulting in a firefighter's death he is sent to prison but no chief nor city council has ever been prosecuted for willingly violating NFPA 1710 resulting in a firefighter's death?

GREAT QUESTION!

NFPA standards are considered consencus standards. That means they must be "accepted" by some level of government to become law.

The level of government can be Federal, State, or Local and can be "accepted" by an of the 3 branches: executive, legislative or judicial.

Many NFPA standards for building construction have been accepted or mandated by NYS Codes Div. (state executive) making them law.

Turnout gear NFPA standards are set by FED OSHA (& NYS PESH) (both executive, fed & state)

Bailout rope NFPA standards were mandated by NYS Legislative and enforced by NYS executive.

The NYS courts have "accepted" most if not all consencus standards, unless a law supercedes it.

Now to the heart of your question:

NFPA 1403 has been accepted by NYS OFPC (executive) and turned into state law. Allowing it to be used in the courts.

NFPA 1710 has not been accepted by any state as a standard. It is slowly starting to crop up in civil litigation. Once it hits the NY courts during civil liability it most likely will be accepted by the courts, unless the defendant (the FD or municipality) can prove they were following a comperable consencus standard (there are none).

NYS law does not allow career firefighters to sue their employeers for injury or death and that is extended to cover thier families.

Who is the most likely plantif? A civilian who has a fire loss, an insurance company that wants to be covered for its loss, or a firefighter from another community who is hurt going mutual aid into an under staffed dept? I dont know, but at some point I suspect some smart lawyer will figure out its worth some bucks, until then municipalities will continue the gamble that they are saving $$$.

[FIRECHIEF63 55]

The topic started here is to find out some direction of question in the Topic Title.

A little background on the subject, the other day a local Fire District was requested to respond to another District's firehouse for stand-by coverage on a relocate and the requested Department responded with only two individuals, a Driver & an Exterior/Support member, on the rig and were met at the Stand-by station by one of thier Asst. Chiefs... So, in reality what was this rig that relocated ready to handle should they had to go to a AFA, Structure Fire, MVC or even an EMS Call ???

So here are the questions this topic brings out that I would like to have some input from all you out there on.

Should an Engine or Truck when they are dipatched to a neighboring District for stand-by relocation coverage be staffed with just anyone?

Just a Driver?

or Fully Staffed with Qualified interior people in every seat?

and

Should they all come on the rig?

or Can you have Engine or Truck respond and have the proper personnel meet that rig in the relocate station?

and

Who Decides this?

The District being requested?

or The District Requesting the coverage?

What is your protocol and who decided it??

I welcome all and any comments and thoughts on this topic.

Thanks in advance..

Well, I want to thank all who have posted replies to my post here. There have been several very good and informative replies and input. Although some have ventured off the topic and not addressed my post.

Seems as if everyone is going towards the the standard of sending to a stand-by relocation whatever would be expected to handle any call that is dispatched for them to respond too and being able to handle it while you are relocated. In short if you are going to relocate to stand-by, do it with proper amount of manpower (FILL THE SEATS, if possible), and have those filled seats be qualified (INTERIOR FF's) to handle almost any and every call they could get sent too.

Maybe the best way to think of this is if you were asked to stand-by as a hockey player for a hockey game you wouldn't send a football player to the rink with a baseball bat would you?

Please do not stop posting your replys, keep the thoughts and ideas coming and but please stay in line with the topic and answer the questions above that are in the original post.

Thanks again...

[Anthony Tester 13]

I will chime in, briefly...

Relocating with qualified personnel is part of a bigger problem, lack of volunteers who are around. We have all seen it. I remember a time when you went to PFD, FFD, or AFD, it was a rig packed with qualified people. Whats changed? Our lives, drastically. How many Fire Departments have changed along with it? How many fire departements refuse to change? How many fire departments are being proactive and trying every avenue? And lastly, how many departments are in complete denial and cannot even see that they have a problem?

As far as NFPA goes, even here in the City, it was adopted. It has taken many years to go from a guideline to a standard. They come to light when something goes terribly wrong (as we saw in the Lairdsville incident). As an investigator, you cannot even testify unless you are practicing and are fluent in NFPA 921, and you better know it from front to back, the opposing side will grill you on it. Its always when something happens, the codes come into play, as they should. Is it hard to follow all the codes all the time? You bet. Departments have been rolling the dice for years. I think it would really have to be a substantial amount of neglicence before it would go in front of the courts. So the interim, if a department is going to relocated to a neigboring department it should (as Jeff said) be worked out between the departments.

[ttomcap 18]

What do you do if you only have 3 men on duty. One of them is the officer who's driving a rig. You put out a page for mutual aid. You hope enough men respond to send 4 men with the rig. Most departments other than the bigger ones are under staffed. That's the way it's always been. What do you suggest can be done about it?

[moggie6 54]

Someone said it earlier in one of the post. We as fire service organizations need to define what an alarm is. With technology what it is today there is no reason why any of us should not know the buildings we are going to. How many of us have heard a neighboring fire department get called out for a house fire and then go and look the address up on Google Earth. In Sullivan County's E-911 Systems a picture of the structure along with other relative life hazard and water source information comes up on the computer screen. It is then relayed to the responding units. Information like this changes how we as responders evaluate, look, and act at our alarms. The definition of a 1st alarm in a city is very different than one in a rural setting. With this information we can better determine what a 1st alarm is going to be in different areas.

When it come to the topic of relocating or even responding with an engine or truck. What we need is the fire service leaders to give us their expectations of what they want from mutual aid. If as a consensus the various emergency services leaders say, "I want XYZ when I call for ABC.", than we have a guideline to respond to incidents with that everyone can agree on. I'm not sure if a county could place such a policy into a mutual aid plan, such as a minimum manning clause. I.E. A manned fire engine or ladder truck will consist of 1 driver and 3 interior firefighters. If Engine ABC1 is requested for mutual aid perhaps they should call out with the personnel on the engine. "Engine ABC1 is responding manned with 3." or "Engine ABC1 is responding undermanned with 2". For the fire chiefs out there how would knowing the manning levels of incoming mutual aid you as the IC?

[Beekman 5]

I think this thread brings up numerous issues which, in Dutchess County, should be handled by the Dutchess Chiefs Council and whatever policies or rules created should be abided by all. Dutchess has an awesome Radio Plan which is ignored constantly so why bother having it?

Interiors- For career personnel, they are required to graduate from the Academy but for volunteers it's up to the AHJ. Even if a Department has educational requirements, are there continuing education requirements? How about passing a physical examination? How many Departments allow firefighters to use their own physician for their physical examination?

Technology is great (Moggie) but we aren't even there yet. In terms of buildings and hazards, most Building Departments on the Eastern side of Dutchess County are part time, if at all, and the larger ones on the western side have had major cutbacks in inspectors. Sure volunteers could do pre-plans but I keep hearing "the economy is horrible and we don't have time to do that. I'm too busy working 2 or 3 jobs to survive".

Sullivan's system is great but we have too many firefighters and CHIEFS who can't even remember the address they are responding to and need 911 to repeat the address for the 5th time. I guess no one has the Minitor 4s or 5s with the stored voice capability.

My advice? Have the Chief talk to the offending Department. If nothing is going to change, take them off your alarm assignment.

The rest? Send out a survey and try to get honest results?

Interiors- How many do you have? How many are ACTIVE? What determines what ACTIVE is? (LOSAP, Policy, paying their dues, OSHA training completion) What are your requirements for education, continuing education and physical examinations?

You may not want the true answers.

[helicopper 1,050]

The first step might be to define firefighter as one who is fully qualified and stop calling members firefighters until they are. That is until they've completed FF1 or an academy.

It's also misleading when a department claims to have 150 members and only 30 are "interior qualified".

[Bnechis 3,961]

The first step might be to define firefighter as one who is fully qualified and stop calling members firefighters until they are. That is until they've completed FF1 or an academy.

The academies are FF2. FF1 is a great starting point, but it is not enough to make one a firefighter.