Dutchess County Cuts Fire Investigation Division From 2011 Budget

[Guest anguspaddy]

The Fire Investigation Division (FID) has been eliminated in the 2011 dutchess county budget.

I understand that it is the fire chief's responsibility to determine the cause of fire, but how many chiefs have the training, or more so the time to do the training in order to become a certified fire investigator. There are many things that could be cut before the FID in the budget. Just wondering everyone's opinion on this topic...

[EJS1810 7]

How much money does a Volunteer FID cost?

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Operating budget is 50K a year, but operating cost is between 10-15K. There is much more that could be cut or trimmed back, but the FID team? Minimal costs to maintain their day to day operations, they are the most active team in the Department of Emergency Response. It'll be a whole different ball game if either the Chiefs have to make their determination alone, or they have to contract out for investigatory services, and figure out all the liability issues. I doubt most Chiefs in the county want to spend days in the court arguing over NFPA 921 and 1033.

I urge everyone in Dutchess to get a hold of their fire commissioners, county coordinators, and put some pressure to get back the team.

[EMTDelta 22]

The Fire Investigation Division (FID) has been eliminated in the 2011 dutchess county budget.

I understand that it is the fire chief's responsibility to determine the cause of fire, but how many chiefs have the training, or more so the time to do the training in order to become a certified fire investigator. There are many things that could be cut before the FID in the budget. Just wondering everyone's opinion on this topic...

It is the fire chief's responsibility to cause for an investigation to determine the cause, not to actually determine the cause. Such as least is the wording of the law. This means that they need to have an investigation done, whether its be by the chief themselves, a member(s), etc..., whomever.

[Guest anguspaddy]

It is the fire chief's responsibility to cause for an investigation to determine the cause, not to actually determine the cause. Such as least is the wording of the law. This means that they need to have an investigation done, whether its be by the chief themselves, a member(s), etc..., whomever.

I get the whole idea of the Fire Chief having someone do an investigation, but ultimately everything falls back on the Fire Chief. And how many people can actually afford the time and money to take a state Fire Investigation clas.... that is if the state offers any. Volunteers are just that... volunteers, i dont know many who can take that much time off in order to take that kind of class

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I get the whole idea of the Fire Chief having someone do an investigation, but ultimately everything falls back on the Fire Chief. And how many people can actually afford the time and money to take a state Fire Investigation clas.... that is if the state offers any. Volunteers are just that... volunteers, i dont know many who can take that much time off in order to take that kind of class

And sit in court for multiple days on top of it when the need arises...

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I get the whole idea of the Fire Chief having someone do an investigation, but ultimately everything falls back on the Fire Chief. And how many people can actually afford the time and money to take a state Fire Investigation clas.... that is if the state offers any. Volunteers are just that... volunteers, i dont know many who can take that much time off in order to take that kind of class

I went up to Montour and took FBAA and PFI earlier this year. It's not that long of a course. I hope to advance eventually and go and take more classes in the future.

I agree, that having an easily accessible team for these purposes is a good resource, and I don't like the idea of losing this resource, the people who staffed it, are still trained in Fire Investigation, and there are other members out in the community who are also trained. Worst case scenario, the usage of another area/regional team, or, the OFPC. If it appears to be, or is known to be a large scale, or suspected violent or criminal act, the OFPC is sure to get involved somehow anyway.

Outside of the OFPC, I am sure that there are some DCSO and/or NYSP staff who have some training in this field as well. Does anyone out there know for sure, I am curious. Once a case is determined to be criminal in nature, there has to be a PD agency involved somewhere along the lines.

I do though, certainly hope this issue gets resolved.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I went up to Montour and took FBAA and PFI earlier this year. It's not that long of a course. I hope to advance eventually and go and take more classes in the future.

I agree, that having an easily accessible team for these purposes is a good resource, and I don't like the idea of losing this resource, the people who staffed it, are still trained in Fire Investigation, and there are other members out in the community who are also trained. Worst case scenario, the usage of another area/regional team, or, the OFPC. If it appears to be, or is known to be a large scale, or suspected violent or criminal act, the OFPC is sure to get involved somehow anyway.

Outside of the OFPC, I am sure that there are some DCSO and/or NYSP staff who have some training in this field as well. Does anyone out there know for sure, I am curious. Once a case is determined to be criminal in nature, there has to be a PD agency involved somewhere along the lines.

I do though, certainly hope this issue gets resolved.

From people within the FID, there are 2 Sheriffs trained, but without the ability to collect OT at the moment...

[markmets415 524]

I went up to Montour and took FBAA and PFI earlier this year. It's not that long of a course. I hope to advance eventually and go and take more classes in the future.

I agree, that having an easily accessible team for these purposes is a good resource, and I don't like the idea of losing this resource, the people who staffed it, are still trained in Fire Investigation, and there are other members out in the community who are also trained. Worst case scenario, the usage of another area/regional team, or, the OFPC. If it appears to be, or is known to be a large scale, or suspected violent or criminal act, the OFPC is sure to get involved somehow anyway.

Outside of the OFPC, I am sure that there are some DCSO and/or NYSP staff who have some training in this field as well. Does anyone out there know for sure, I am curious. Once a case is determined to be criminal in nature, there has to be a PD agency involved somewhere along the lines.

I do though, certainly hope this issue gets resolved.

Nate those two classes are basic classes that ALL firefighters should have and I appauled you for traveling to the NYS Fire Academy to take them however to take those classes which total 36 hours, add in the requirements of the on scene investigation hours to become a Level I or Level II investigator and then take the 80 hour Fire Arson Investigation Course which is given at Montour most volunteer members do not have the ability to take time away from work to complete the required hours. I know speaking personally, I have been in the fire service for 28 years, have served as Fire Chief, have helped and determined the causes of fires, have my Fire Investigator Certs however I do not have the ability to travel to Montour and spend 2 weeks for the 80 hour class because of work, etc. Bottom line is the Dutchess County FID Team consists of highly experieced individuals from the fire service, police, and legal services and to cut them from the budget is a travesty.

[Anthony Tester 13]

For those of you who think that the training is minimal, you better think again. In your free time pick up NFPA 921 (or if you really want to be on up to date, the new edition should be out anytime now). I encourage you to read and comprehend the entire document. When you have completely absorbed all of it, pick up NFPA 1033. And when you have understood Daubert and Gate keeping, by all means do not stop there...

Fire Investigation HAS NEVER been so comprehensive and scientific than it is right now. If you think a fire chief is going to stroll into court, state the facts, and not be shredded on the stand, it is not just going to happen.Cases are now being overturned because of "junk science". Look up the Todd Willingham case if you really want an eye opener.

I have been doing this as a career for the last several years and it has become such a specialized field it almost to the point you have to be an engineer in the particular case you are working on. Most investigators now have so many letters and advanced degrees after their names its almost funny.

Support the Dutchess County FID. They as a team serve a very important function for the county, and they do it without getting paid.

If you do not realize their importance now, maybe you will when the DA cannot get a conviction because he / she does not have the resources.

[markmets415 524]

For those of you who think that the training is minimal, you better think again. In your free time pick up NFPA 921 (or if you really want to be on up to date, the new edition should be out anytime now). I encourage you to read and comprehend the entire document. When you have completely absorbed all of it, pick up NFPA 1033. And when you have understood Daubert and Gate keeping, by all means do not stop there...

Fire Investigation HAS NEVER been so comprehensive and scientific than it is right now. If you think a fire chief is going to stroll into court, state the facts, and not be shredded on the stand, it is not just going to happen.Cases are now being overturned because of "junk science". Look up the Todd Willingham case if you really want an eye opener.

I have been doing this as a career for the last several years and it has become such a specialized field it almost to the point you have to be an engineer in the particular case you are working on. Most investigators now have so many letters and advanced degrees after their names its almost funny.

Support the Dutchess County FID. They as a team serve a very important function for the county, and they do it without getting paid.

If you do not realize their importance now, maybe you will when the DA cannot get a conviction because he / she does not have the resources.

Well said Anthony

[Guest anguspaddy]

I went up to Montour and took FBAA and PFI earlier this year. It's not that long of a course. I hope to advance eventually and go and take more classes in the future.

I agree, that having an easily accessible team for these purposes is a good resource, and I don't like the idea of losing this resource, the people who staffed it, are still trained in Fire Investigation, and there are other members out in the community who are also trained. Worst case scenario, the usage of another area/regional team, or, the OFPC. If it appears to be, or is known to be a large scale, or suspected violent or criminal act, the OFPC is sure to get involved somehow anyway.

Outside of the OFPC, I am sure that there are some DCSO and/or NYSP staff who have some training in this field as well. Does anyone out there know for sure, I am curious. Once a case is determined to be criminal in nature, there has to be a PD agency involved somewhere along the lines.

I do though, certainly hope this issue gets resolved.

and the classroom time does not even count the ammount of INVESTIGATION time in order to become a certified investigator in order to do it on your own... that's actual fire investigation time, not training.

I know for a fact that there are a few people in the Community who are trained, but they are members of the FID. none of them have the equipment or the backing to run their own business. And both the State Police and Sheriff's both stick to the fact that it is the Fire Chief's responsibilty. The SP will bring a dog if needed, but thats about it. and as far as the OFPC goes, we would have to wait 2 hours just for them to get there... thats if they come at all.

Getting rid of the DC FID is just an extremely bad idea all around. We need to get our commissioners fired up, as well as the tax payers.

Not even coming from me as a FD member, but from living in my own home, if I god forbid did have a fire in my home, I do not want someone to investigate the fire who has no idea what they are doing. I would want a highly trained professional, with the right equipment to do it... that is what the FID is all about. A group of VOLUNTEERS, aiding the dutchess county fire chief's in what is probably the hardest job in the whole fire service.

Edited November 6, 2010 by anguspaddy

[xfirefighter484x 234]

and the classroom time does not even count the ammount of INVESTIGATION time in order to become a certified investigator in order to do it on your own... that's actual fire investigation time, not training.

You seem to harbor a lot of resentment, and I am not quite sure where this comes from. I never once stated I was a Fire Investigator, or proclaimed to be an expert, or anything of that nature. I am VERY well aware of the requirements to level up to a Level I, and then Level II Investigator.

I know for a fact that there are a few people in the Community who are trained, but they are members of the FID. none of them have the equipment or the backing to run their own business. And both the State Police and Sheriff's both stick to the fact that it is the Fire Chief's responsibilty. The SP will bring a dog if needed, but thats about it. and as far as the OFPC goes, we would have to wait 2 hours just for them to get there... thats if they come at all.

Thank you for that information.

Getting rid of the DC FID is just an extremely bad idea all around. We need to get our commissioners fired up, as well as the tax payers.

Not even coming from me as a FD member, but from living in my own home, if I god forbid did have a fire in my home, I do not want someone to investigate the fire who has no idea what they are doing. I would want a highly trained professional, with the right equipment to do it... that is what the FID is all about. A group of VOLUNTEERS, aiding the dutchess county fire chief's in what is probably the hardest job in the whole fire service.

I hope you may re-read through what was said, and maybe try and relax a bit. I did/do agree with you. It is an unfortunate happening, and, as I stated before, I do hope to see it come to a positive resolution.

I also never once knocked the DC FID, any of the members, or the job they perform. I am good friends with several of it's members.

Nate those two classes are basic classes that ALL firefighters should have and I appauled you for traveling to the NYS Fire Academy to take them however to take those classes which total 36 hours, add in the requirements of the on scene investigation hours to become a Level I or Level II investigator and then take the 80 hour Fire Arson Investigation Course which is given at Montour most volunteer members do not have the ability to take time away from work to complete the required hours. I know speaking personally, I have been in the fire service for 28 years, have served as Fire Chief, have helped and determined the causes of fires, have my Fire Investigator Certs however I do not have the ability to travel to Montour and spend 2 weeks for the 80 hour class because of work, etc. Bottom line is the Dutchess County FID Team consists of highly experieced individuals from the fire service, police, and legal services and to cut them from the budget is a travesty.

I realize this Mark. I agree, it is minimalist training, and just a beginning in the topic. I do wish to pursue it further, and, the same situation with you, with my job and hours, at the moment, it is difficult to be able to go up there for additional training. There also haven't been many, if any, incidents for me to "aid" in investigating as of recent, so kind of hard to gain those hours to put towards my Level I.

I think some people are misinterpreting my statements for saying all you need is those two classes to be an Investigator. That, is not what I said. But, it is the groundwork for someone to start becoming "certified" investigator.

[JetPhoto 626]

Many things at DC 911 will be changing in 2011 beginning with Coordinator Murphy's retirement December 17th 2010. So the department will have a new coordinator, faced with loosing the team and other parts of the department. It sucks no matter what way you look at it. Some county employees are going to loose jobs very soon, many departments merged together (some of which make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!) Cuts Cuts Cuts all to keep the taxes down.

So when it comes to saving money in the ER budget where do you start?

Dispatchers? No to valuable to public safety

Dispatching equipment? Can't use one with out the other

CIRT? Has proven itself valuable during firefighter deaths & other tragic events

Haz-Mat? Most firefighters have no training for major emergencies clean up companies are a distance away

Office Personal? already operating understaffed

Fire instructors / training? With out the proper training the risk of firefighter injury or death may occur

Fire Investigation - Heavily used group, proven to convict arsonist but

Chief has basic responsibility,

If the Chief feels it's suspicious turn it over to the PD,

If its a major incident OFPC will most likely be involved

Most fires are also investigated by the property owners insurance company

NO I do NOT want to loose this group or any group

[Atv300 69]

Hey I don't wanna see the FID go but here is the deal the state government has put us in this position look at their own issues with the OFPC. And i am sorry but to say pressure your coordinators, the coordinator staff and CC-1 sounds to me like with what they were dealt with did an amazing job no one got laid off come on thats got to be a major hats off to them. So if you are to pressure anyone start with the politicians state and fed level.

As far as fire investigation goes it has been changing along with the voile as a whole (please this is not an attack just my opinion that its hard for everyone) even the FID team has a hard time assembling now I hear it all the time 3 4th dispatch. Remember these guys need a life too its not cheep to live around here anymore so they need jobs and my hats off tho them for there great service when they can in between work and everything else.

I really hate to say this but look at it this way New York state law dose not require any certification to be a fire investigator just that its up to the IC to Determine the origin of the fire. That dose mean the IC is allowed to bring in recourses if the fire seems suspicious I.E. OFPC FID or in our case before the DC FID ect. and if the chief holds custody of the incident there can be a hand off. Once again its not an attack just stating some facts the FID teams county or state have amazing training and are a great recourse.

[Guest anguspaddy]

In no way am I blaming and cooridnators or CC-1

I feel that they havce all done an exceptional job throughout their tenure.

I just feel that the "higher ups" should do a little more thinking when they plan on cutting things out of the County budget.

And putting it out there, I am in no way whatsoever knocking the County Fire Police Team, I'm sure they do an exceptional job.

But how often are they used? I know up here in the Northern part of the county, we rarely call them, and I have never been on a scene that the County Fire Police Team was used.

But any Structure fire scene i've been on, of course the FID was called. I feel its just common sense.

and again i am NOT knocking the county fire police in any way

[Atv300 69]

What's their budget for the year cutting them might have not done anything to help the situation I agree I hear the fid called alot more but as crappy as it is politicians make about money and put those guys in a rough spot to make decisions they probably do not want to make.

We could go back and forth all day about different ways to cut back but the simple fact is we do not know the whole story on what there is to work with we should be pressuring the govt. To give more money to the emergency services so thease decisions would not have to be made.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I personally think that FID's are very important and provided the Fire Chief with personnel who are highly trained and highly experienced. One benefit is that when a FID comes to a scene, it provides the Chief with fresh eyes and minds. Can't the Chief call for a different counties FID or C&O team? I know I have experienced this before...

[NWFDMedic 58]

I personally think that FID's are very important and provided the Fire Chief with personnel who are highly trained and highly experienced. One benefit is that when a FID comes to a scene, it provides the Chief with fresh eyes and minds. Can't the Chief call for a different counties FID or C&O team? I know I have experienced this before...

The Chief can call for whomever he wants, but the question becomes will they come. There are a limited number of fire investigators in Orange County where it often takes several dispatches just to get an investigator to answer in our county. Do you think they'd be willing to cover Dutchess too? I know that our K-9 resource has gone elsewhere to investigate, but that's a specialty resource. I doubt you'd see the investigators willing to go out of county for investigation without compensation.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The Chief can call for whomever he wants, but the question becomes will they come. There are a limited number of fire investigators in Orange County where it often takes several dispatches just to get an investigator to answer in our county. Do you think they'd be willing to cover Dutchess too? I know that our K-9 resource has gone elsewhere to investigate, but that's a specialty resource. I doubt you'd see the investigators willing to go out of county for investigation without compensation.

I doubt it would happen much either. However, with the fire volume being somewhat low in both Orange and Dutchess counties, I would think it would not be a bad idea to cover both counties and get double the experience. I know up her In St. Lawrence County we use M/A C&O teams on occasion when there are several working fires going on at once or the SLC C&O team is unavailable. I do see why investigators might want compensation for covering other counties, perhaps something will be worked out...Just an idea.

Either way, hopefully in future years, the Dutchess County FID will be added back into the budget. The FID provides valuable manpower and resources. IT is a shame that the FID of all things was chosen to be cut.

Edited November 7, 2010 by PFDRes47cue

[Atv300 69]

Yes every part of the county support is important but for now until somthing is set in stone and really cut can we stray away from the budget issues that I am sure most really do not know because we are not in it.

Maybe stick to why the teams are important and info on investigating fites but leave out the mud until the real reasons come out.

[Guest ffjay376]

What we can say for sure is that all of our county coordinates and CC-1 is doing the best that they can with what they were handed. They don't want to see the FID cut out of the budget as much as the FD's in Dutchess county do. They did what they had to do to insure that no one got laid off.

[64FFMJK 21]

What we can say for sure is that all of our county coordinates and CC-1 is doing the best that they can with what they were handed. They don't want to see the FID cut out of the budget as much as the FD's in Dutchess county do. They did what they had to do to insure that no one got laid off.

How exactly do you lay off a volunteer FID team?

Even if the cash for them is taken out of the budget how long can the team continue to operate with the equipment that is currently in place?

One question that I have often wondered is why the individual Districts do not contribute to a FID/Critical Incident team fund to help cover the costs. How much would it really impact each FD in Dutchess to pay out $1K - $2K a year for these services when one court case will probably cost them 100x's that much.

[Atv300 69]

We were not talking about the vollie team but all the jobs in the county emergence response. And no offence I understand it seems like 1k 2k is not that much but the way things are going departments are gonna have to realy crack down on spending. Even local goverments are making cuts so departments are gonna have to do more with what they have for a budget or mabye less of a budget.

[Atv300 69]

And I am pretty sure its Still not set in stone that they are out I don't think the budget is final.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Just out of curiosity, how much does the FID really cost the county? Are they paid on call employees or volunteers? Do they have to pay for training and re certification? Being in Connecticut this is all new to me. Each town is REQUIRED to have a Fire Marshal that MUST be paid and the training is provided for free by the State as long as the individual is sponsored by the municipality. But our Marshals also do inspections, code enforcement, plan review, permits, etc. Who does all of that in NYS?

[Atv300 69]

The short answer it really depends on where you are for example fdny has fire marshals and do building inspections. I am not sure about all the paid depts. But I am pretty sure arlington and city of pok do inpections. But for the most part the towns have a building inspector that dose the job as far as I have seen for the code enforcment. Fire investigation was left up to the chief and the fid team was a reasource formed to aid in the chiefs responsibilty to find the origin and cause. No that's not even cut and dry across the county since I do not know if they still do but east fishkill had their own FID.

[v85 212]

In both Orange County and Ducthess County the fire investigations team is volunteer. However, I believe the cities in Orange County, Newburgh definatley and possibly Middletown have their own fire marshal who handles investigations.

Permits and inspections in most towns, outside of those two cities, at least in Orange, are handled by the building inspector or code enforcement officer

[Guest anguspaddy]

Just out of curiosity, how much does the FID really cost the county? Are they paid on call employees or volunteers? Do they have to pay for training and re certification? Being in Connecticut this is all new to me. Each town is REQUIRED to have a Fire Marshal that MUST be paid and the training is provided for free by the State as long as the individual is sponsored by the municipality. But our Marshals also do inspections, code enforcement, plan review, permits, etc. Who does all of that in NYS?

The number we were given is that it cost 50,000 dollars to fund the FID for the year. This covers the cost of fuel, equipment, and training for members. It's really not that much with all things considered. It figures out to be $1,500 per district if we go the route of each district having to pay to keep it.

[Atv300 69]

I might be way off but how would you justify that to the towns taxpayers that they need to pay taxes for a county team that should be able to be funded by the county taxes they pay.

I Still say pressure the politicians that take the money from where its supposed to be and use it not responsible.