Stage away till FD arrives

[lad12derff 283]

I know we have been down this road before and it just would not sit right if we don't bring it up again. When I respond to a call and I am advised by 60 Control to stage away till PD arrives I do just that. I can tell you that for every shooting, stabbing and assault call I respond to I ask if PD in en route. I also advise that we will stage away until clear to enter the scene. Do I want to help someone in distress? Yes I do. Do I want to be part of the action? Yes I do. Do I want to injure or kill one of my Brothers under my supervision and not return them home the same way they came to work. NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! Do we need to get on the radio to advise PD to stage away till our arrival? 2 Members of Public Safety are in critical condition for the simple fact that :

#1 They are not dressed in proper fire gear

#2 They are not wearing SCBA

#3 They most likely do not have elevator keys and or don't know how to control an elevator in a fire situation

#4 They are acting out of the scope of their job description

Does wearing a uniform transform us into something we are not? We tell civilians to vacate and do not return for valuables or anything else for that matter. When does the risk vs reward decision come into play? Do we really need to do another agency's job?

For everyone who gets his/her panties in a bunch over this post get over it! Hold a picture tight of your loved ones everyday and ask yourself one thing. Is this the smartest thing I am about to do?

I will say a prayer for the 2 NYPD members and I hope for a speedy and healthy recovery

[LTNRFD 266]

Chief Henry Campbell was of the old school that if you are properly trained it won't be your training that hurts you. PD can be an asset at any FD scene. They need to know what the limits are as to when they turn from asset to liability. What I have scene on the news reports was that the 2 officers exited the elevator on the fire floor and the fire was in the hallway. They opened the door into an inferno. The rescuers became the rescued. This asks the question, were these officers trained in how to respond to this situation? Are other officers at risk for a similar occurence?

[Rescue99 9]

I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".

You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?

They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.

You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?

The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.

Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

[huzzie59 75]

I will say my first thought was "why did they go to the fire floor in the elevator"?

I trust every first responder knows that not what should be done.

This was a life and death decision they made.

999 times out of 1,000 there is no issue.

Police Officers are truly the "first" first responders due to the nature of the job.

It's "Monday Morning" and my guess is they will tell you, they shouldn't have done what they did.

[firemoose827 324]

I respect the hell out of our brother and sister police officers and I have no issue with any of them attempting to make a rescue if the opportunity presents itself. But I do have one issue, and I can monday morning quarterback this particular incident I am about to discuss because it happened in my district and I was first IC, then operations for the incident.

My issue is this; we were requested to respond to a residence for "Excellerant spilled in the residence" (exactly how dispatch gave it to us). When I got on the radio and stated I was enroute I asked for more information, they simply repeated the original, stating that there was some type of excellerant spilled in the residence, nothing further. So I wrote it off to being a fuel oil tank leaking in the basement or maybe someone accidentally spilled some gas in the garage or something......BOY was I wrong.

I pulled up to the scene in our first due engine/tanker to a scene loaded with state troopers. I get out and approach the one trooper and he tells me there is a woman inside doused in gasoline and threatening to light herself if they went in to get her. I FLIPPED out, and told the trooper we should all evacuate to a safe distance based on the fact the house was FILLED with gas fumes and was explosive (if the LEL was right) but we were taking no chances.

This trooper failed to give us all of the information when we were dispatched, and we should have been staging on the road until the trooper negotiator talked her out or worse...They allowed us to drive right up to the scene and park next to the house in a circular driveway and said nothing to us. My panties are in a bunch as well and I will also not get over it. And this is odd for my area because we have a great working relationship with all of the LE agencies in the county and have always worked well together. Why did they fail to give us appropriate notice and give us all of the information, even if it was over the cell phone? We could have all been killed, blown away.

[lad12derff 283]

I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".

I would have to disagree with you on that one. As soon as we put on our uniform we do change the way we think. Right, wrong or indifferent things change and sometimes not for the good. I am also not speaking condescendingly here either. Take what I said for what it's worth. If they didn't want to get in the action why did they? Risk Vs Reward. Is your life worth the risk you will take Vs an unknown reward. I guess FDNY needed 2 more casulties added to the mess.

You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?

I can tell you that if PD advises my company to respond in quite I do just that. They are on scene and have a better grip of what's going on than me. I don't want to add any more problems to my Brothers in Blue who ask me to keep the scene safer.

Maybe where you work it's different

They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.

Not really sure of that one Brother. Unless the report comes out that upon entry to the elevator the officers pressed floors 5, 10 to make sure the elevator stopped at both floors and then tried the emergency stop button at floor 11 when the elevator failed to stop I would say they don't know how to use them. See we are trained to operate elevators in fire scenes. If this had been reported as an armed person on the 13th floor would they have still taken the elevator to that floor?

You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?

YAWN!!!!!

The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.

I do wish them well and a full recovery at that.

Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

YAWN!!!!!!

[Rescue99 9]

Obviously you must be tired ...because you sure do yawn a lot..it must take a toll on you to sit behind a computer judging other peoples decisions. Nobody knows what they were thinking and why they did what they did, it's just not appropriate at this time to explain to the members of this forum what an amazing, clear thinking decision maker YOU are....also between your yawns maybe you can answer the question about where is your utter contempt when firemen take police action?

Ps...please save me the guaranteed response of " I have done more in 1 tour then you have your whole career" to justify your Monday morning quarterbacking

[16fire5 693]

We need to reach out to our counterparts and ensure we are giving them some good basic training to make informed decisions on the actions they take at fires if they are in before us. It's not like the old days the smoke today can overcome you in a few breaths as we see happened here. Also we are now learning more and more about fire behavior and it's critically important for us to control ventilation especially before water is applied. We have all seen the well meaning officers on arrival who have taken windows or held the door open. We know this will quickly increase the intensity of the fire.

They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.

I can see that having them could come in handy for police matters but I think they should be forbidden from using them at fires. The responding companies need them to get to the fire floor quickly. At the very least you need to get 2 engines and 1 truck up to the fire floor to begin the attack. If PD arrives and takes one of the elevators to the upper floors that is one less for us to use to get upstairs. And lets face it in NYC's public housing it's pretty common for one elevator to be out of service.

[Officer Ed 59]

We respond to ALL calls of trouble, including reports of fire. That is SOP, policy, or whatever you want to call it.

We do not FIGHT fires. That is the job of our brother and sister firefighters. However, we do observe and report until the firefighters arrive. We then back off and do crowd control, traffic control, or whatever.

I can't comment on what heppened with the two injured NYPD officers but, if I had to guess, it would be that they responded to the trouble call and were confronted with an already out-of-control fire.

"First responder" means what it says. Police officers are first responders and MAY arrive at fires before the fire department. Sometimes that has disasterous consequences....but that's the nature of the job.

[everybodygoes 331]

Bratton today commented that he called several other PD's to ask if they had a protocol for fires, and they did not, because it is not their job. Fire proof MD fires are not like any other animal. Door frames are generally in block walls with steel frames and doors, in other words, you won't be donkey kicking your way in to rescue anyone. This is going to be an extremely unfortunate event that has probably like someone said been done thousand of times. Except this time they went to a rubbish fire in a public hallway and not an apt fire. Hopefully only one casualty from this is the result, although I would venture to guess she is going to be severely disabled from her lack of oxygen as well.

You don't respond to fires with the intentions of saving anyone unless you are equipped and trained to do so, and with both being done by your employer. Im glad we had two good trucks on the box who are good at FPMD fires to be the ones to rescue these two. Hopefully a miracle will occur.

[bad box 371]

I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".

You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?

They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.

You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?

The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.

Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

Dispatching law enforcement personnel to building fires for the purpose of entering an IDLH atmosphere and conducting a search is playing Russian roulette with the LEO's lives. Just as common sense tells us not to dispatch firefighters to crimes in progress for the purpose of taking police action due to the obvious extreme danger to firefighters as they are not trained or equipped for such action, law enforcement personnel should not be placed in harm's way inside a burning building. I feel for the injured officers and their families. The officers acted bravely but should never have been placed in a situation such as this by their department to begin with. I am amazed that any law enforcement officer would agree with placing his brothers and sisters in situations that they are neither trained or equipped to handle. An appropriate way of honoring the two injured PO's would be for the police commissioner to immediately institute an SOP for response to and actions to be taken at fire scenes by police officers. The main theme should be police officer safety. God bless the two injured PO's and let this be the last time such a tragedy is permitted to occur.

[sympathomedic 383]

Please don't beat me too hard: I am not a cop, and I am at best minimally a fireman. I am a Union official and I read a lot- Cop and FD mags and The Chief.

In the NYPD acadamy, is there ANY fire training?

What would happen if the guy that makes the PD acadamy curiculum contacted his counterpart at the FD acadamy and tried to set up a short class on FD ops and dos and don'ts for trainees?

My guess is that someone would not like it and make a fuss, maybe even a Union official.

For the folks online here that have a much better knowledge of NYC FD and PD ops- would this work? Do you think it is a dumb idea, esp given the hindsight of this event where well-meaning responders became badly injured? Would it be so awful that two agencies that serve the public at emergencies share a bit of knowledge about the best and safest way to do it? So awful that despite this tragedy we not change anything?

[comical115 32]

Having responded to jobs in the projects before, it is no where near out of the realm of possibility (and I would speculate rather likely) that this job was communicated to the housing officers as an EDP, DI or other any other disturbance that they routinely handle.

Unless you have specific and well informed knowledge about *THIS* specific incident I wouldn't dive straight to a soap box...

[Bnechis 3,961]

I was involved 20+ years ago with an NYPD ESU officer who was killed in a fire response. It was a devastating event for many (my partner was his friend and the officer knew when he was to be intubated, he would not speak again. so he asked my partner to say goodbye to his family for him. The next day my partner quit EMS).

Since this is not the 1st time NYPD officers were critically injured while "operating" in a structure fire, I am surprised to find that the NYPD does not have a policy.

In my experience many police depts. including NYPD actually have a policy, its unwritten, but its very effective (sadly in a negative way). Police officers that attempt rescues are often given awards, sometimes promotions. This sends a very clear message to the members. This action is rewarded.

Many years ago we had a fire in an animal hospital & the FD rescued an attendant and a police officer (who had tried to make the rescue). A few months later their was 2 articles in the news paper (on the same page), 1) the officer receiving an award and detective badge, 2) the NYS Labor dept. was fining the PD for failing to follow the law in protecting the police officer.

My heart goes out to the officers and the families, but sadly this will happen again, because law enforcement in general believes they must respond to every call and do "something".

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I listened to the audio from the PD relating to this incident and we're all overlooking the fact that these two cops were DISPATCHED to an apartment on the 13th floor for a report of a fire. They weren't trying to be heroic, they weren't trying to be firefighters, they were responding to a radio run as they probably had 1000 times just this year.

Absent a policy on how to respond to a reported fire in a high rise project building, these two unwitting victims just answered a call.

The soapbox is misplaced and responsibility will probably be placed on the department for the lack of training, lack of written policies, and the provision of incomplete information. These officers didn't have the benefit of CIDS, or a size-up, or a call-back for additional information. They just answered the call as they always do.

We work in disneyland compared to their housing environment and we can't judge these two officers for their actions.

Rest in peace Officer Guerra. Speedy recovery Officer Rodriguez.

[JAD622 40]

Sadly, it was just reported that 1 of the Officers has passed away. A terrible price to pay, leaving a wife and four young children without a Father. I truly hope the NYPD implements SOP's that protect responding Officer's in the future to prevent this from happening again. While their efforts were certainly valiant, the outcome was tragic. Proper training for Police Officers to effectively evaluate the location, severity and potential victims effected and relayed to responding FD units can be of tremendous value and drastically enhance the success of the operation for all involved. My prayers for the Officer's family and for the second Officer's full recovery.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

My heart goes out to the officers and the families, but sadly this will happen again, because law enforcement in general believes they must respond to every call and do "something".

How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).

What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?

In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Bratton today commented that he called several other PD's to ask if they had a protocol for fires, and they did not, because it is not their job. Fire proof MD fires are not like any other animal. Door frames are generally in block walls with steel frames and doors, in other words, you won't be donkey kicking your way in to rescue anyone. This is going to be an extremely unfortunate event that has probably like someone said been done thousand of times. Except this time they went to a rubbish fire in a public hallway and not an apt fire. Hopefully only one casualty from this is the result, although I would venture to guess she is going to be severely disabled from her lack of oxygen as well.

You don't respond to fires with the intentions of saving anyone unless you are equipped and trained to do so, and with both being done by your employer. Im glad we had two good trucks on the box who are good at FPMD fires to be the ones to rescue these two. Hopefully a miracle will occur.

What was the officer's intentions? Did you speak to them in the elevator?

They just announced that the officer died so we will never know what he thought or what he was going to do when he got to the 13th floor.

bnechis, he won't be promoted and he won't be receiving any medals (except maybe posthumously).

They were sent on a radio run. Bottom line.

[bad box 371]

Having responded to jobs in the projects before, it is no where near out of the realm of possibility (and I would speculate rather likely) that this job was communicated to the housing officers as an EDP, DI or other any other disturbance that they routinely handle.

Unless you have specific and well informed knowledge about *THIS* specific incident I wouldn't dive straight to a soap box...

The officers were dispatched via radio to a 911 call reporting a "10-59 of a residence" (10-59 = fire) on the 13th of a residential high rise building. Upon their arrival, the police officers reported smoke coming from the windows of the building. This is the audio of the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM

[bad box 371]

Sadly, it was just reported that 1 of the Officers has passed away. A terrible price to pay, leaving a wife and four young children without a Father. I truly hope the NYPD implements SOP's that protect responding Officer's in the future to prevent this from happening again. While their efforts were certainly valiant, the outcome was tragic. Proper training for Police Officers to effectively evaluate the location, severity and potential victims effected and relayed to responding FD units can be of tremendous value and drastically enhance the success of the operation for all involved. My prayers for the Officer's family and for the second Officer's full recovery.

May Police Officer Guerra rest in peace. Condolences to his family and fellow officers. Let us hope that this is the last time that a member of the NYPD is placed in this type of situation. From the NY Times: "After the fire Sunday, the Police Department began reviewing how officers respond to such conditions. Mr. Bratton said on Tuesday that no precise guidelines existed for approaching fires on high floors of buildings, and said the “policy deficiency” would be quickly corrected."

[bad box 371]

How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).

What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?

In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

The words of a responding Police Officer at approximately 6:57 on the audio says it all, "Why are you sending PD in there if it's a fire?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM For everyone who is posting as if the injured and deceased police officers' actions are being questioned, please take a breath and understand that it's realized and respected that these officers were brave in their efforts to do what they thought was appropriate. Their sacrifice (as well as that of their families) is immense. What's troubling to me as a firefighter is that the NYPD has never trained their personnel in the proper actions to take or not take at a fire scene. The department is 100% guilty of placing its personnel in grave danger every-time they dispatch them to a 911 call reporting a building fire. PO's are motivated public servants who are going to take action when they respond to any incident. If there is no formal training and no official department guidelines for actions at a fire incident, these motivated, well meaning personnel are likely to end up in a place they shouldn't be, taking actions that may cause harm to themselves, civilians as well as responding firefighters. Hopefully Commissioner Bratton now understands that a police officer shouldn't be dispatched to confront a burning building anymore than a firefighter should be dispatched to confront a perp with a gun. Sadly, it is now time to mourn a deceased hero...

Edited April 11, 2014 by bad box

[FirNaTine 370]

Please don't beat me too hard: I am not a cop, and I am at best minimally a fireman. I am a Union official and I read a lot- Cop and FD mags and The Chief.

In the NYPD acadamy, is there ANY fire training?

What would happen if the guy that makes the PD acadamy curiculum contacted his counterpart at the FD acadamy and tried to set up a short class on FD ops and dos and don'ts for trainees?

My guess is that someone would not like it and make a fuss, maybe even a Union official.

For the folks online here that have a much better knowledge of NYC FD and PD ops- would this work? Do you think it is a dumb idea, esp given the hindsight of this event where well-meaning responders became badly injured? Would it be so awful that two agencies that serve the public at emergencies share a bit of knowledge about the best and safest way to do it? So awful that despite this tragedy we not change anything?

Not going to happen! Too many egos! Let's face it too, there's too many FD and PD employees out there who are more concerned about making a "Grab" and being the hero so they can add to their cache of ribbons, and get pissed off if another member of the Emergency Service Professions gets there first and robs them of the Glory! Gotta agree with some Law Enforcement Officials on this one too the FD should then stay away from tackling robbery, mugging, burglary etc etc Suspects and leave it to the PD. Maybe FD should also stay away and not render assistance to an Officer being assaulted. Stage away and let PD handle it. Your not trained nor do you have the proper equipment to assist: Gun, Baton, Taser, Handcuffs, etc.etc.. These two did what they thought was right but unfortunately paid the ultimate sacrifice fellows. I know Id be pretty pissed off if I lost a loved one in a fire and found out there was Law Enforcement Officials there who could have made a difference but were told not to get involved and wait FD's arrival. We all know seconds, not even minutes count. We all take an oath to protect Life and Property. What next PD won't be allowed to throw up a ground ladder to get somebody out of a window whose trapped? How about get rid of 11/2" Standpipe hose on Class 3 Standpipes and Extinguishers within Premises/Businesses, so they can't be used by Building Employees/Occupants. Is it ok for a lay person to try and attack a fire with these items when they don't have the proper training? C'mon! Granted though there has to be better Training and SOP's implemented and both sides have to know their limitations and know what they can and can't do. JMO.

Edited April 9, 2014 by FirNaTine

[AFS1970 504]

This is exactly the time for Monday morning quarterbacking, because if we wait for Tuesday, it might be too late. Sadly we have to learn from past experiences, especially the deadly ones, because those are the ones we remember the most.

As for the fact that the officers are dispatched to the fire, yes this is so that they can perform police functions there. When we send EMS to an assault call it is not for investigation and apprehension, it is for patient treatment. That being said my fellow dispatchers need to understand when to send and not send certain agencies there, because the need to do something is always present in public safety personnel, it is why we do what we do. Nobody here became a police officer, firefighter, Paramedic to not respond to calls. No amount of training and no SOP will keep people from trying to help.

In my city when a call comes in for a structure fire, it is sent to both he fire and police dispatchers. Sometimes I think it is almost a race to see who can dispatch it first. When I am working the police console, I generally try and wait until I hear the FD is en-route. We all know the jokes about the first PD unit blocking the hydrant, but it is sadly accidentally true. When I was a VFF I went to a fire in another district, it was a multiple alarm. We get to the street the fire is on, which was a small residential street with little to any traffic problem, and found an unattended police car blocking the road. Thankfully it was running and unlocked because one of our guys had to move it so we could get to the building. I don't think the PO thought he was hampering operations, he thought he was keeping onlookers away, although he then walked up a few hundred feet to look at the fire.

I realize that we all have to work within our SOP's, but I have to wonder if we couldn't be more aware of certain situations and realize that we can help keep each other safe by better defining what we do. Could these officers have been sent to the building exterior to provide intelligence? Sure, and could that report of smoke from windows been relayed to the FD, sure. Might it have lead the FD to respond to what was otherwise a small fire, sure but I would rather have a full assignment for a mattress fire than a LODD.

As for medals and promotions, someone once told me that nobody ever gets a medal for following the rules.

EDIT: I should say that the police are not the only ones guilty of failing to stage. I dispatched a call for a Psych case one night. In this district at the time that got an Ambulance and an Engine along with the police. I told the FD & EMS to stage. After a while of not hearing any updates the Captain on the Engine called in and asked on the air if he could clear up. I told him to stand by and I would see if PD still needed EMS. His reply was they probably do I can see the patient being loaded into the ambulance from the staging point. EMS had decided they knew better and gone in. I called the EMS supervisor about this, and was told that his medics knew all about scene safety and were well qualified to decide if they needed to stage or not. A quote like that could someday become a eulogy.

Edited April 9, 2014 by AFS1970

[TimesUp 148]

After a good class on elevator ops you would then have to issue scba's? (I think the nypd is going to come up with a SOP?) Then turnout gear and firefighter I&II after all in order to operate safely at a structure fire theses would be the minimum you should give these officers. Anything less would be suicide.

What a shame these kids lost their Dad. What a tragedy!

BTW the new SOP could say to stay out of fire buildings even if dispatched. I'm sure there are some on here with better insight than me on that.

[16fire5 693]

I listened to the audio from the PD relating to this incident and we're all overlooking the fact that these two cops were DISPATCHED to an apartment on the 13th floor for a report of a fire. They weren't trying to be heroic, they weren't trying to be firefighters, they were responding to a radio run as they probably had 1000 times just this year.

Absent a policy on how to respond to a reported fire in a high rise project building, these two unwitting victims just answered a call.

The soapbox is misplaced and responsibility will probably be placed on the department for the lack of training, lack of written policies, and the provision of incomplete information. These officers didn't have the benefit of CIDS, or a size-up, or a call-back for additional information. They just answered the call as they always do.

We work in disneyland compared to their housing environment and we can't judge these two officers for their actions.

Rest in peace Officer Guerra. Speedy recovery Officer Rodriguez.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but my biggest issue is with their use of the elevator. I don't really think an SOP is needed to tell people not to use elevators during fires. It's common knowledge and it's posted next to elevators everywhere. If they had used the stairs we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[FirNaTine 370]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but my biggest issue is with their use of the elevator. I don't really think an SOP is needed to tell people not to use elevators during fires. It's common knowledge and it's posted next to elevators everywhere. If they had used the stairs we wouldn't be having this conversation.

13 flights? There were 3 elevators and Ive got no problem with PD securing them especially for FD use if they have Elevator FD Emergency Service keys. Maybe that's all they should do? Or how about secure all 3 in the Lobby and let one Officer take one to 2 floors below and investigate but surely not to the fire floor or did it malfunction and go to the fire floor? Were there odd and even bank cars or blind shaft banks? A lot of questions to be answered before everyone jumps to conclusions.

Edited April 9, 2014 by FirNaTine

[Bnechis 3,961]

How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).

What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?

In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

There are many types of calls that we have removed from our runs, because they place us &/or the public at extra risk, without any benefit. Define a credible source? There are many scenarios that without training is the source credible?

We have a strict policy that EMS can not stop an FD response to a MVA. We still regularly hear EMS say you are not needed and are surprised when we show up. They are then reminded that we appreciate them advising us that they do not need assistance with the medical aspects of the call, but we have other responsibilities that they are not looking for at an MVA.

The authority is with the agency. I am not questioning the officers, they were dispatch, they need to go. The issue I have is what calls does any agency not need to go on?

bnechis, he won't be promoted and he won't be receiving any medals (except maybe posthumously).

They were sent on a radio run. Bottom line.

Yes hindsight is 20/20. But the reality is many have for taking a risk that they may or may not even understand the risk.

Yes, but were they or should they be dispatched to the point of origin?

How about get rid of 11/2" Standpipe hose on Class 3 Standpipes and Extinguishers within Premises/Businesses, so they can't be used by Building Employees/Occupants. Is it ok for a lay person to try and attack a fire with these items when they don't have the proper training?

Many communities have removed them (as allowed in the NYS Uniformed Fire Prevention & Building Code) because they are unreliable ( on inspection, I have rarely seen ones that have not dry rotted or been vandalized) and more important than training, occupants or anyone else using them places themselves in grave danger because of the toxic gases. That's why without SCBA we teach GET OUT!

[FirNaTine 370]

The FD teaches many things to the Public Bnechis but as we All know it often falls on deaf ears. The examples are plentiful!

[Bnechis 3,961]

The FD teaches many things to the Public Bnechis but as we All know it often falls on deaf ears. The examples are plentiful!

You are correct, but if you take the hose out, the lesson is clear, get out, because you have no means to stay and fight.

[FirNaTine 370]

You are correct, but if you take the hose out, the lesson is clear, get out, because you have no means to stay and fight.

Until they start filling pots of water from the tub and sinks. Hopefully they'll just leave.