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The incident happened far enough away I thought we could hash it around a bit, without "offending" any of the members of this site; that's why I brought it up after the I.A. Kujo is based in San diego as I know it, so even he is not directly there. And he always does an excellent job reporting in from the West Coast. Hopefully we'll get more from him about this too.
Thankfully as Chris pointed out here, the outcome was positive, except for the injuries to the firefighter.
Similar to what I did with NIOSH fatality reports, giving an incident a good critique can be a great learning method, especially if none of us are directly involved, so no hurt feelings in the discussion.
The only guy that can reasonably take humbrage with any comments here would be the IC from that job, who could come on here if he likes and give a full explaination of the events and circumstances leading up to this rescue mission..... (oh no here we go with that again!)

First thing is, can we cut the money issue out of the discussion? It was only raised because a member thought the department might get a donation due to their actions. They probably will, so that's great.
I think all of "our hats are off" to the brothers/sisters. I'm sure they're "stand up guys." Most firemen, cops, ems, are. They carry the mantle of honor forward in their continued excellence in operations, saving lives, and doing "the right thing." Chief Crocker said it best about there being no greater honor.
That isn't the question. It's about decision making, and priorities.
~Best to you.

This would be a tough call for an IC. We all, or most of us, love animals. Your people are chomping (no pun intended) at the bit to help the dog and use their training and equipment. If you pull it off, it is good PR. If you decide not to go for it, your own people as well as the public are probably all pretty pissed off at you. I will not Monday morning quarterback this incident because I wasn't there and I don't have all the details. However, if I were the IC at a similar incident, I would not place my members at any significant risk to save an animal.
Anyone who may at some point in their career be faced with a similar go or no go decision would be well advised to think now about what decision they might make, and to realize the pressure that will be put on you if you decide to stand by and do nothing. Sometimes, though, it takes the most courage to make the decision that you will do nothing. I'd rather stand by 1,000 times and watch animals die, than have to live with the fact that someone under my command was killed or suffered a serious injury attempting to save a non-human life.

Totally assinine! 50+ firefighters for an hour and a helicopter. Whoever was in charge of this operation should be called in on the carpet and read the riot act. Total misuse of manpower and resources as well as putting people in danger for what? A freaking dog

Thank you everyone. You guys would have done the samething that i did i was just in the right place

Having known Packy for thirty years it comes as no surprise Chris acted in such a manner. Good job Chris. A credit to the FDNY as well as the Westchester fire service.

Humility is a great lesson to be learned in The Brotherhood. Nice job Firefighter Murray!

Thats my big brother. He makes us so proud

CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL PROPERTIES: AL
* Physical data
1. Atomic weight: 26.98
2. Boiling point (at 760 mm Hg): 2327 degrees C (4221 degrees F)
3. Specific gravity: 2.70 at 4 degrees C (39 degrees F)
4. Vapor density: Data not available.
5. Melting point: 660 degrees C (1220 degrees F)
6. Vapor pressure at 1284 degrees C (2343 degrees F): 1 mm Hg
7. Solubility: Insoluble in hot or cold water, concentrated nitric acid, and hot acetic acid; soluble in hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid and alkalies.
8. Evaporation rate: Data not available.
* Reactivity
1. Conditions contributing to instability: Contact between aluminum powder and ignition sources may create a severe explosion hazard. Because it is strongly electropositive, aluminum corrodes rapidly in contact with other metals.
2. Incompatibilities: Aluminum is an extremely reactive metal. Contact between aluminum and acids, caustics, combustible materials, chlorinated hydrocarbons, and strong oxidizers should be avoided.
3. Hazardous decomposition products: None reported.
4. Special precautions: Aluminum may corrode in contact with other metals.
* Flammability The National Fire Protection Association has assigned a flammability rating of 1 (slight fire hazard) to aluminum (dust or powder).
1. Flash point: Data not available.
2. Autoignition temperature: Data not available.
3. Flammable limits in air: Data not available.
4. Extinguishant: Do not use water, carbon tetrachloride, or halon to fight fires involving aluminum. Control small fires with sand, talc, or sodium chloride. Dry chemical or carbon dioxide extinguishers are also acceptable. Fires involving aluminum should be fought upwind from the maximum distance possible. Keep unnecessary people away; isolate the hazard area and deny entry. Containers of aluminum may explode in the heat of the fire and should be moved from the fire area if it is possible to do so safely. If this is not possible, cool fire exposed containers from the sides with water until well after the fire is out, but be careful not to get water inside containers. Stay away from the ends of containers. Firefighters should wear a full set of protective clothing and self-contained breathing apparatus when fighting fires involving aluminum.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/aluminum/recognition.html

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

Well put HFD23!
I also agree with you, Slayer61, that a FAST / RIT Unit should have minimum equipment, some form of SOPs and proper training. In the past, these items have been discussed on these forums but don't ask me where!
Just building on what the others have asked / replied, what equipment does your FAST carry and what equipment should be minimum?
I'll start... we use an Engine primarily because we have three of them, and because the majority of our trained Team members come from this company.
Some of what we carry:
(1) Stokes
(1) TIC
(1) Quick-Vent Chain Saw
(1) Partner Saw with wood (multi-purpose) blade
(1) Stihl Saw with metal blade (metal and concrete abrasive blades also on rig)
(1) Battery-powered Sawzall
(1) Electric Sawzall
(4) Steel hooks (6' & 8')
(3) Pairs of Irons
(1) 8 Lb. Sledge
(1) Hydra-Ram
(1) Man Down Pack
Several Search Lines & Tie Lines
Several Other hand tools (K-Tool, A-Tools, Closet Hooks)
300' Rope with 3:1 MA setup
Each man has a radio, PPE, SCBA & flashlight(s).
There's a lot more equipment on this rig, but these are the most commonly grabbed tools.
We always perform a 360 of the fire building, and will clear anything blocking egress points. Other tasks we do include throwing ground ladders and performing accountability (as best as we can). One Member is always detailed to the Command Post and monitors Fireground transmissions, and generally we put one team (at least two) in the rear of the building and keep another out front.

Great answer...you got my vote!

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.
Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.
SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

Chief Flynn - As they say "You have hit the nail right on the head" and to some it "Hurts" - REGIONALIZATION and CONSOLIDATION is, indeed, the way Westchester County and other areas, throughout New York State and the Country, need to go, not only as it relatest to saving money, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, improving response times, providing the right set of manpower and equipment to an incident, and to ensure that lives and property are saved. Having a Northern Westchester County Department of Emergency Services Division (Fire and EMS) and a Southern Westchester County Department of Emergency Services Division (Fire and EMS) with the consolidation of these Paid and Volunteer Departments, all pulling their respective resources into one (or in this case 2) SOLID TEAM, is a "no brainer"
NOW THE BIG ISSUE !! - Allot of Egos and "Home Turf" attitudes will need to broken down. It should not be and never be about who is the "Biggest Chief" or the "Best Department", it should all be about saving lives and property, and these political attitudes and egos need to be placed in the trash can where they belong, whether or not you are a Career Department, a Split Department (Paid and Volley), or strictly a Volunteer Department.
I don't believe Chief Flynn's position is one of a personal nature or personal gains. As you all know, he is busy enough handling the management (along with Chief Fitzpatrick, Commissioner Pagano, and Chief Cuculo) of the Yonkers Fire Departmenet. You may not have to agree with everything that is posted on EMTBravo.net and even with some of Chief Flynn's comments and his perceived "so called attitude", related to other topics (I being one, "on occassion") BUT, I know and well as the majority of everyone here on EMTBravo.net, that Chief Flynn's heart is and has truly been in the right place here on EMTBravo.net and he does indeed care about FIRE PROTECTION (not only in Yonkers, but throughout Westchester County).
Believe it or not, but I suspect with the New County Executive Rob Asterino, the concept of REGIONALIZATION of EMS and Fire Protection in Westchester County will eventually become a reality. The way it can work out BEST for EVERYONE, is for everyone, Fire and EMS Exeuctives (like Chief Flynn, Captain Barry Benchis from New Rochelle FD and others), Paid Departments (EMS and Fire), and Voluntter Departments (EMS and Fire) to all get together and recommend to County Exeuctive Asterino exactly how it NEEDS TO BE DONE, rather than having some outside agency or firm telling the county how it should be.
TOGETHER WE CAN SUCCEED! SEPARATED WE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL

Our newest pumper has an enclosed side mount panel. It is also a rearmount pump and the pump enclosure does have a floor in it. This obviously cuts down on the amount of dirt and grit that coats the actuation controls (yes their all manual valves). It also features a 40,000 btu auxiliary heater in the pump enclosure. The operators have been praising it this winter as it is very warm in the pump compartment so they're fairly happy standing there when it's cold.
All of our previous pumpers and two current top mounts have had removable "trays" under the pump for winter operations. This allowed a little more that retention in the pump enclosure and cut down on the dirt, slush and salt that got into the actuation mechanicals of the pump. In the spring these trays are removed too allow the pump to cool.
ALS: Don't you love the wind chill factor? We seem to need to re-educate people a few times every winter that the windchill is not making their car start harder. It's great when you tell someone that the windchill only effects living creatures and they give you the "dog hearing a high pitched whistle" look! Joking aside, the wind has some limited effect on objects as it carries away the warmer air faster allowing the object to reach the ambient air temp quicker, but the object will never go below the actual temperature no matter how hard the wind blows.

I totally agree with the not being accepted remark. This sounds like a bitter man who possibly at one time or another, tried to get onto the job and was rejected. He now harbors bad feelings toward the fire service, and now decided to put his efforts to writing this story. And what a very small effort it was. He simply listed one incident after another, which any person capable of writing can do. As was said during the Black Sunday Trial..."It takes a particular type of person to comment on procedures that they do not understand, nor do they have the bravery to do." This person is a very cowardly person who hides behind a pen.

This guy is his own worst enemy when it comes to being taken seriously. "Firefighting attracts a lot of immature people, who feel they don't need to grow up." OK, that's fair. Hell, I might even be inclined to agree. Then he goes on to list a few examples that back up his point, but what's with the rest of that list? A fill the boot to benefit Muscular Dystrophy? It sounds like conditions might not have been optimal (where I live, excessive fill the boot events caused the city to put an end to them altogether), but to count that as a "childish act?" Really? Also, that "loose change" that's "shaken down from motorists" adds up. I think my union cleared 5 figures for a few hours worth of effort.
As for some of the other examples, they're despicable acts that go way beyond immaturity. This guy needs to go back to journalism school.

I read the beta incident alert as well. I couln't help but notice the ironic similarity to the Montrose incident in that a long driveway was described to the structure, but I also noticed the IC requested to leave room for the truck IFO the building (notwithstanding I had/have no criticism of Montrose's tactics).
I don't know the chief, the IC at this job, or any members from Croton Falls FD, but let me say this; if by chance the IC had come to this board and followed the discussion regarding the Montrose job, is it possible that was in the back of his mind, and therefore helped him make a very good call to notify units to leave room for the truck?
If the IC automatically thought to do that, and it had nothing to do with the evolving use of the site, well that just shows good leadership, so congrats to him and the rest of CFFD; respective of the very limited information I have seen. But if emtbravo's information helped the IC, that would also be a very good thing wouldn't it?
~Just an opinion

I'm not sure what the real reason they are starting to become enclosed other then appearance as it makes the apparatus look sleeker. Most of my experiences with T handle problems on apparatus had nothing to do with the lever right at the pump panel as its nothing more then the handle pinned to the rod that actuates the valve, where they gum up or get stiff over time. I also can't see how having the panel enclosed would help with any freezing issues unless its heated as mentioned. Again the pump, the plumbing and drains all come off the center..not at the panel. Lets not forget also that top mounted panels can still be utilized and other then having it part of the cab have never seen one enclosed in another fashion.
Enclosed or not...I'll get proficient with whatever I have in front of me. But I have to say..as Izzy pointed out, the few enclosed panels I've operated I found to be very compact and a bit of a pain in the a** in certain applications.

The ladder was not requested at the time of alarm...I do not know that exact time but definietly well after intial alarm. In upper Westchester there was an ice storm...heavy hail, sleet, freezing rain and freezing conditions on the roadways. The truck had six interior firefighters on it. Croton Falls does not have a truck..I know their engines carry truck equipment. The crew had called in on the first dispatch. Yes there is a problem with manpower but not just here but I believe county wide. The good things are that the IC did leave room for the truck in front of the building though maybe it should be called earlier and/or on the intial assignment. This is not an excuse or stand or rebuttle...just some information. Be Safe

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

Excellent job Croton Falls, seems like a quick knockdown, and use of the tankers, could you elaborate, on the use of the tankers, since many Northern Communities rely on them. Excellent job.

Judging by the FDNY/NYPD response time to inwood and the heights for jumpers and people in the water I think that time would be inadequete to the Tappan Zee area. Other posters may be on to something with the regional response. A Westchester River Rescue type agency combining the multiple resources would probably be more effective than every small department on the river trying to have their own boat.

Wow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKfksVMcyI

Event Date: 26-January 10 9:00 (Single Day Event)
New Rochelle Fire Department is sponsering a 3 hour Performance Measurements for Fire Departments
Session Description
FireStats will introduce, demonstrate and discuss various performance measures commonly used for fire
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Also discuss are the benefits and pitfalls of comparing engine company performance by company and shift, and the various ways to look at personnel and engine company performance.
This half-day session is designed to give fire officers a comprehensive understanding of the most commonly used analytic and statistical tools available to the fire service – tools that are especially useful in Fire Department Accreditation and Standards of Response Coverage. Most of the analyses that will be discussed are fairly easily performed in Microsoft Excel and they will be demonstrate briefly on how to perform certain of these analyses with this common software that most departments already have. Attendees should not bring computers as the Excel demonstration will not be a tutorial, but rather a quick demonstration of what is possible.
Course Instructor
Paul Rottenberg is the president of FireStats, LLC., an education and management consulting firm providing analysis and support to fire departments throughout the United States. Paul has an MBA from the University of San Francisco and has worked for public and private entities in financial and operations analysis for over 25 years. Paul is the sole creator and instructor of all FireStats curriculum has taught his classes to over 1,000 fire officers throughout the US.
FireStats has worked on over 500 fire department analysis projects including Standards of Cover, Accreditation, strategic plans, and customized statistical and probabilistic analyses in support of engine and ambulance deployment and staffing models. Paul has ten years as an active paid-call engineer/EMT with a combination fire department in Northern California, is a subject matter expert in Deployment Analysis for the USFA at the National Fire Academy, teaches for the Center for Public Safety Excellence, and is a member of the American Management Association’s Technology, Innovation and Manufacturing Management Council. In addition to teaching and working on ad hoc projects, Paul is currently retained by several fire departments to provide ongoing analysis to the executive staff.
To attend this session, please contact: paul@FireStats.com