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Capital City Fire Helmets in Hartford CT. He does great work repairing/refurbing. Check out the site.

Capital City Fire Helmets in Hartford CT. He does great work repairing/refurbing. Check out the site.

I couldn't agree less. Is the point of this site to critique operations and procedures or is it just to talk about who's got a shiny new truck. (even though we all DO like shiny new trucks).
There is no fire operation anywhere ever that is text book perfect. Anyone who feels thier operation requires no critique, comment or question is dangerously self confident. We Monday morning quarterback because that's how everyone learns!
From the look of the smoke colum from those great aerial photos, it looks like they managed to make a great stop. From the video, it looks like that house will be perfectly sound for renovation. With today's interior furnishings and petroleum products, a saved structure is a good stop. Well done.
Asking about positioning ect. is just that, a question. It invites debate and discussion and no one should take offense, as long as questioning parties act appropriately.

Great Photos Chris, But the ladder is located infront of the exposure (and the supply line is blocking the "front" of the building).

Most of you seem to be missing the fact the not enough qualified personal were at the scene forcing the ic to use non fire dept personal to do fire dept functions. This lack of qualified personal is a huge problem in the fire service today. Non fire dept personal should not be used period, put enough players on the field or dont call yourself a "team".

You know why the Trucks open the roof right?????
To see the real fireman at work!!!!!!!!
Guess I need to change my name now.

I pay taxes to make sure I get service (well trained, properly staffed & equipped) in a timely manor. But a substantial amount of the time those resources are covering false alarms at IONA, CNR, the Hospital and the highrises, all of which do not pay taxes.
If they are malfunctining (crying wolf) they will not save lives when the time comes, because they will be ignored.

Try doing almost 9000 and see how morale is

Hold on....lets get a few things straight here. "Joe Samaritan" doesn't get to go start his own fire company because he wants to do good. It doesn't work that way. The City of New York is protected by the FDNY from fire and emergencies. The FDNY is also charged with enforcing fire and building codes. Additionally, FDNY and it's personnel have the ability to enforce and issue summons for a slew of other infractions. Every FDNY apparatus has multiple summons books. Sounds like we're a long way away from "...it's not the FDNY's job to enforce anything".
Aviation VFC is a band of freelancing buffs. They're not needed and they're not helping anyone. One of the FDNY's greatest assets is staffing, assignment of standardized riding positions and response matrix, all of which give us the ability to work efficiently and safely at any fire. We as firemen know what our specific task is and chief officers know who's supposed to be where. It's a highly coordinated effort and the last thing that anyone needs is a rig no one expected taking a hydrant, blocking out trucks and stretching a line that could end up opposite ours. I don't care what their intentions are, their behavior is wrong and they're going to get someone hurt.
As for training, all I've heard is talk of FF1 or Essentials, ect. Those courses do little more than scratch the surface, they're not a bench mark. An FDNY Proby receives about 1,000 hours of intense training before graduating and being assigned to a field unit. After that, he will respond, on average, to anywhere from 600 - 1,500 alarms a year while on duty. Please, tell me how Aviation is going to achieve training on that level.
The Fire Commissioner of NYC has called for them to cease operations. He's the final say on all things fire in New York City, who are they to thumb their nose at that? If they are found to be operating in some claimed official capacity it should be handled in a legal manner.

Anyone ever see an Aviation member taking FF1 or the old Essentials of Firemanship at Westchester?
Its not a matter of picking on the volunteers in this case. There are a total of 9 volunteer departments within the confines of New York City. Aviation always seems to end up in the news, and not in a good way. Never hear that much about the other 8 volunteer companies do we? After the nonsense they pulled after 9/11 crying about lost/damaged equipment and then squandering donations on things like nightclubs they deserve every ounce of scrutiny they get. They give volunteers a bad name, and as a volunteer I think they should be shut down and face criminal investigations.

The problem is that the City of New York already has fire protection in the form of FDNY. These volunteer fire companys are nothing but freelancers...what do we call the guy on the fire scene who doesn't listen to any orders, ignores accountability, and does what he wants(besides ahole), yeah that's right, a FREELANCER. The same applies here, this company is basically buffing jobs off of a scanner(their not dispatched by FDNY), they don't follow FDNY SOPs/SOGs, they may have their own. I'd like to see what the response would be if I bought my own firetruck and started responding undispatched to jobs in Mamaroneck...I'm sure I'd turn a few heads.
On the training aspect, FDNY has their academy/training set up the way that they want their personnel trained. I'm going to guarantee that the AVFD doesn't attend the FDNY academy. What happens if one of these volunteer members gets injured in the line of duty? I bet that they would go after the City for it. This opens up a huge liability to NYC with organzations like this freelancing around the city. How about the unprofessionalism that is displayed when these guys show up and a dispute takes place?
Don't always take the "Paid guys are just causing trouble" approach. Look at things from the other side a little bit, and try and see that doing the right thing isn't always doing the right thing.

Ahh to be young and naive. I might be young too, but I know that there is a huge difference between what OFPC's recommends on volunteer training (remember NYS is a home rule state, so FF1 is not required), and FDNY's career academy. The volunteers do not go through the FDNY academy, which would make is almost impossible for them to fit seamlessly into the FDNY's operations. The last thing the FDNY is worried about, are these volunteer companies taking away their jobs. They're worried that their standards and training requirements are not kept up as adequately as the FDNY's, which could endanger the lives of the citizens and responders even more. They "pick on them" because the fail to produce training requirements, or certificates of their members to the FDNY to show that they are all adequately trained.
Everyone might love cake, but that doesn't mean cake is good for you.

Except Boston? I hope it is sarcasm. There are plenty of departments that throw plently of "portables" as we call them. Look at DC and it's suburbs they throw as many as Boston.
I always had the ladders out any Saturday I worked as a Lieutenant. We washed them and put them up. 1. They collect a ton of dust in the tunnel under the aerial. 2. Just simple maintainence finds halyard issues and even gets the members proficient in tying it.
But to the jist of the arguement I think the opposite is true. Too many suburban departments do truck work to be like "the city". When in fact their best bet with the limited initial manpower is to put the fire out. If I know I was always going to show up with 5 or 6 I would get my guys hyper competent in engine work. Unfortunatly the primary search will have to wait for knockdown. Primary without water on the fire will not work.

Not far from my house. Took a quick swing by when I got a chance.
http://nycfire.net/gallery/action/2012/nrfd_01/

Oh I don't know..the fact that to get through the door as a professional you have to meet several standards that are non existent in volunteer ranks. Like written testing, a physical agility, more frequent and stringent testing at a minimum of 229 hours of basic training versus 87 hours. A requirement of 100 hours of training per year versus what..some say 8 but when you factor in BBP, hazmat refresher and few others maybe 15?
Not sure what argument you're exactly trying to make...but there is no comparison that professional firefighters achieve greater frequency and levels of training...hence competency then most volunteer departments. Its just a fact of life. But..there are counselors out there to help you get over it. Funny thing is I don't think I'm one of the one's who "knows who you are." But I know a shot when I see when...and I'm never one not to fire back when need be.
On a side note...from reading the description and listening to the rise in some of the voices and reading body language, I'm wondering if the incident they describe with firefighters running into issues in the basement hadn't occurred then and they just reacted in a less then optimal way. Either way...anything you enter into..you have to think to yourself (at least I do or would) that I may have to also come back out this way and in a more hasty way then I came in. There is no way your exiting that window in a rapid manner unless its make bigger.

So you know what the training standard in Indiana is compared with NY?
"You Get What You Pay for" - Do you think any busy dept. in NY would have the cream of the crop lining up for $13/hr.?

This is Indiana. What their training standards are I don't know. I would have to say they're lacking in S.O.P's for Basement fires.

So thats how they know where I go. Hmmmmm

while the "math is becoming more and more skewed in favor of us taking less risk" lets look at the entire process and not just the answer. Over the last 40 years civilian fire deaths and injuries dropped dramatically (mostly do to the fire prevention efforts of those that pushed hard in the 70's & 80's). But as the number of fires, fire deaths & injuries dropped, the number of firefighter deaths did not. Why? because we did not change our tactics when construction, fire conditions and PPE changed. Now I am not saying don't give it your all, but when you do the math, if you die in this fire, so does your partner and the intial victim. That helps no one.
When I got on the job I use to get teased by the sr. members for wearing that stupid air pack. Not one of the guys that teased me lived very long in retirement and the quality prior was not very nice. The irony is many were on "air" to make up for it.
We are asked to do more and more with less and less. My 1st instructor told us that when he got on the job you were expected to die for the public. He told us that "today" (25 years ago)that is no longer true. Your responsibility is to yourself, your brothers and your family. If you die at work you let them down. If you are an officer you have even more responsability to making sure your men go home at the end of the shift (or call). Will we keep pushing in....YES, but there are limits.

This topic is running on another site as well and this response fits just as well here as there I think:
This scenario was left vague for a couple of reasons. First off because this was simply the situation as presented in our discussions here. Secondly I thought it would be interesting and enlightening to see how this situation would fit in regards to the latest trends vis a vis safety that have come into the fire service in recent years. What strikes me is that like many other aspects of the service like career v volunteer or smoothbore v fog there are two very distinct and divergent trains of thought at work here. As is obvious this hypothetical situation plays into the larger debate of overall fireground safety, but unexpectedly, at least to me, we find ourselves with two very different and opposing points of view regarding the lengths we should go to in saving a life . This particular scenario, in which we have a viable victim in our hands, but extreme and potentially fatal risks involved in saving them, pits what I'll call the "old morality" against the "new morality".
In the world of the "old morality" we were taught and it was expected that you just did not leave a viable victim behind once you've found them, whereas in the world of the "new morality" to do so to save ourselves is not only justifiable, but expected. I make no judgements on what choice anyone would make in these circumstances, since as many have said we all have to live with ourselves and the choice we make in the end.
That said I will pass judgement though on a fire service that is slowly passing into a new era. One in which we have become more important than those we are here to serve. One in which regulations and protocols replace good training, experience and fireground flexibility in making decisions. One in which lives other than our own have become increasingly expendable if risks are involved in saving them. To me, and this is just MY opinion, such a change is not only a travesty but in essence an abandonment of the four basic principles of good firemanship...
Courage. It doesn't mean not being afraid, it just means being calm and doing what you have to do -- what others are relying on you for in a dangerous situation.
Dedication. Being dedicated to your crew, the brotherhood, and to the public we protect. We demonstrate that when we study and train and put it in action during an emergency.
Sacrifice. That is demonstrated time and again. We put ourselves in harm's way to help perfect strangers.
Tradition. We remember the courage, dedication, and sacrifice of "the old guys," we live it and do it, and pass it on to the rooks. Tradition ensures that the other principles never die
To close here's a quote, author unknown, that sums it up.
"As a profession we must return to the basics of our trade: Hot, dirty, hard work that every generation has done before us. Keep yourself educated, in shape and be true to the job. Remember we are the fire service and it is only as good as we make. Do not forget Firemanship, because without it public works could do our job".
Cogs

ALSfirefighter gets awarded 2 gold stars for humility....
Nice job to everyone to for taking time out of their daily lives to help others in their most trying moments!

Agreed, they had 1 (or was it 2) "REKINDELS"....WTF. There is no such thing as a rekindle. You have one of 3 choices:
1) you left the scene without putting it out (i.e. failure to overhaul) after declaring it out.
2) the arsonest came back and started another fire
3) you left the scene without putting it out, but left a fire watch (to maintain possesion of the scene) and you determined that it was still burning but posed no threat to exposures, and you would be unable to extingush it till later (like after heavy equipment was brought in to open it up and due to cold your crews were rehabed).
The fire didn't just "re-start on its own"
We need to stop using that term, it just makes the fire service look foolish.

No such thing as a rekindle its called not fully extinguished

Golfclap

Let's clarify our definitions before this thread starts rolling.
"Buff" is someone whose hobby is the FD, be it fires, fire apparatus, old tools, history, etc. A buff often appears at fires but is not involved with any part of the command structure. His position is to stay behind the fire lines and observe, take photos or videos, or discuss the strategy. Sometimes, he is well known and trusted by the IC, and is allowed to cross the fire lines and take pictures, but he cannot become involved in the operation. Also, both career and voll personnel are often found buffing, many are there not to buff but to learn strategy or tactics to better their knowledge of firefighting. Most buffs are not a problem. If they go where they are not supposed tb be, they are told to get back and usually comply.
"Freelancer" is someone who IS part of the command/operations structure but is not following the orders of his superiors or the incident action plan. For example, without an order, he may vent a window, discharge a hose line, enter a building without authorization, etc. A freelancer, by the way, can be a Chief from another department who is operating and giving orders like it was his fire instead of the actual IC. It could be a company that is assigned to the job, but is doing their own thing. Freelancers will get people killed. Yes!...straighten them out or get them off the fireground. Career FFs who are freelancing are easy to correct. Their freelancing can cost them 3 days pay or worse. Volls might take some schmoozing to correct the problem, but if it happens more than once, it's probably time to drop him from your rolls. I know it's hard to get volls to join, but losing a member is better than losing a life.
If there is really a problem, you can get a police officer and request an arrest for interfering with governmental operations. (That's if the freelancer isn't the cop)
Sorry Brothers in blue, I just couldn't pass that one up. I still like you guys.