JohnnyOV

In the office where I work, there are numerous areas in each building with aisles and rows of cubicles with sometimes no rhyme or reason to the layout. The aisles range from about 100 to 200 feet long, with about 10-20 rows of 6 cubicles per row, 3 per side. So in any given area you have between 60-120 cubicles per area. Some of the aisles do not run completely through the floor space, and some run, make 90 degree turns to the right and left and continue their run.
In this scenario, your initial response is 3 engines (1 officer and 2 ff per engine) and 2 trucks (1 officer 2 ff per truck) for a fire in an office building. You are assigned to a truck co to search the 2nd floor of a 3 story office building, for persons confirmed trapped in the SD Aisle somewhere in the cubicle section. Fire is located on the adjacent SC aisle. The building in this area is NOT sprinklered, however there are standpipes throughout the entire building. The area you are searching is in the center of the building with no windows to vent. Conditions are blackout and the engine co's are still in the process of establishing their connection at the standpipe, no water has been placed on the fire as of yet.
What would you do to effectively and efficiently search the area? Which of your department's polices would come into play?

Yeah, the problem is they have this stupid slot system at the airport to appease all the people who built mansions overlooking the airport who complain about noise. Gotta lov eit, build a mansion near an airport or within 20 miles of an airport's flight path and then complain about noise.

As someone who is employed in the Occupational Safety field, hearing protection is one of the most overlooked workers safety practices that should be in place. First, one must realize that dB levels are not a liner function (aka for you non-math geeks, a straight line on a graph that goes up on a diagonal) but rather a logarithmic function that as the dB increases, the intensity of the sound increases 10x for every 10 dB increased. 10=10, 20=100, 30=1000, 40=10000......LdB=10 log 10 (P1/P0). That being said, the damage that is done to your ears at 110 dB compared to 100 dB is not 10 times more intense, rather 100 times.
OSHA states that the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) for noise at 115 dB is 15 minutes per 8 hour work day ( http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/standards_more.html ). Now a Q-siren at full blast at 10 feet directly in front of the siren experiences 123 dB of noise. So you're riding around in the rig going to 3 runs a day with the windows down and no hearing protection on, with the siren pegged for 5 minutes for each response and you've now reached what OSHA calls the PEL which is the cut off point where a worker needs to stop the task, and not return to the same duty until the next day.
Now you say "well our districts only a 1/2 square mile, and it never takes us more then 1:30 to get anywhere." OSHA has something called "continuous noise" and "impact noise." to make everyone's lives miserable....for continuous noise AKA siren and Q going and pegged, the limit that a worker can be exposed to is 115 dB for "an extended period of time," the 123 dB that the Q puts out clearly surpasses this limit, thus exposing the worker to harmful noise. Impact noise is an acute, impulsive noise and workers should not be exposed to anything above 140 dB. Not sure the dB of striking irons, but I'm sure it's up there.
Now after you've exposed yourself to damaging noise on the trip to the scene, you pull up and its a Rippin Yob, and you're the pump operator, you throw the engine into pump and head over to the pump panel to start pumping. You're there for a good 45 min with the engine running real hard and you can barely hear the radio over the noise. I'd be willing to bet that the engine noise alone is far exceeding the PEL.
A general rule of thumb, is if you have to raise your voice over any equipment or machinery to talk to someone, there should be hearing precautions taking place to ensure hearing safety.
We could cover this topic for hours, and I hope what I said makes sense, but now I have to get back to work.....

FYI...
A fireman's bell cap is intended to be worn with the brim facing the front.
No matter how cool you may think you look, it is never Ok to wear a uniform cap backwards. It is disrespectful to your uniform, your department, and the fire service as a whole.
It may even be grounds for a solid smack upside the head.
That is all.

As someone who is employed in the Occupational Safety field, hearing protection is one of the most overlooked workers safety practices that should be in place. First, one must realize that dB levels are not a liner function (aka for you non-math geeks, a straight line on a graph that goes up on a diagonal) but rather a logarithmic function that as the dB increases, the intensity of the sound increases 10x for every 10 dB increased. 10=10, 20=100, 30=1000, 40=10000......LdB=10 log 10 (P1/P0). That being said, the damage that is done to your ears at 110 dB compared to 100 dB is not 10 times more intense, rather 100 times.
OSHA states that the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) for noise at 115 dB is 15 minutes per 8 hour work day ( http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/standards_more.html ). Now a Q-siren at full blast at 10 feet directly in front of the siren experiences 123 dB of noise. So you're riding around in the rig going to 3 runs a day with the windows down and no hearing protection on, with the siren pegged for 5 minutes for each response and you've now reached what OSHA calls the PEL which is the cut off point where a worker needs to stop the task, and not return to the same duty until the next day.
Now you say "well our districts only a 1/2 square mile, and it never takes us more then 1:30 to get anywhere." OSHA has something called "continuous noise" and "impact noise." to make everyone's lives miserable....for continuous noise AKA siren and Q going and pegged, the limit that a worker can be exposed to is 115 dB for "an extended period of time," the 123 dB that the Q puts out clearly surpasses this limit, thus exposing the worker to harmful noise. Impact noise is an acute, impulsive noise and workers should not be exposed to anything above 140 dB. Not sure the dB of striking irons, but I'm sure it's up there.
Now after you've exposed yourself to damaging noise on the trip to the scene, you pull up and its a Rippin Yob, and you're the pump operator, you throw the engine into pump and head over to the pump panel to start pumping. You're there for a good 45 min with the engine running real hard and you can barely hear the radio over the noise. I'd be willing to bet that the engine noise alone is far exceeding the PEL.
A general rule of thumb, is if you have to raise your voice over any equipment or machinery to talk to someone, there should be hearing precautions taking place to ensure hearing safety.
We could cover this topic for hours, and I hope what I said makes sense, but now I have to get back to work.....

As someone who is employed in the Occupational Safety field, hearing protection is one of the most overlooked workers safety practices that should be in place. First, one must realize that dB levels are not a liner function (aka for you non-math geeks, a straight line on a graph that goes up on a diagonal) but rather a logarithmic function that as the dB increases, the intensity of the sound increases 10x for every 10 dB increased. 10=10, 20=100, 30=1000, 40=10000......LdB=10 log 10 (P1/P0). That being said, the damage that is done to your ears at 110 dB compared to 100 dB is not 10 times more intense, rather 100 times.
OSHA states that the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) for noise at 115 dB is 15 minutes per 8 hour work day ( http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/standards_more.html ). Now a Q-siren at full blast at 10 feet directly in front of the siren experiences 123 dB of noise. So you're riding around in the rig going to 3 runs a day with the windows down and no hearing protection on, with the siren pegged for 5 minutes for each response and you've now reached what OSHA calls the PEL which is the cut off point where a worker needs to stop the task, and not return to the same duty until the next day.
Now you say "well our districts only a 1/2 square mile, and it never takes us more then 1:30 to get anywhere." OSHA has something called "continuous noise" and "impact noise." to make everyone's lives miserable....for continuous noise AKA siren and Q going and pegged, the limit that a worker can be exposed to is 115 dB for "an extended period of time," the 123 dB that the Q puts out clearly surpasses this limit, thus exposing the worker to harmful noise. Impact noise is an acute, impulsive noise and workers should not be exposed to anything above 140 dB. Not sure the dB of striking irons, but I'm sure it's up there.
Now after you've exposed yourself to damaging noise on the trip to the scene, you pull up and its a Rippin Yob, and you're the pump operator, you throw the engine into pump and head over to the pump panel to start pumping. You're there for a good 45 min with the engine running real hard and you can barely hear the radio over the noise. I'd be willing to bet that the engine noise alone is far exceeding the PEL.
A general rule of thumb, is if you have to raise your voice over any equipment or machinery to talk to someone, there should be hearing precautions taking place to ensure hearing safety.
We could cover this topic for hours, and I hope what I said makes sense, but now I have to get back to work.....

Probably the one area of personal safety that is most commonly overlooked in the fire service is that of hearing protection. But it is extremely important that fire departments and firefighters recognize and maintain awareness, and undertake protective measures for the well being, and preservation of the ability to hear.
It is an invisible danger that too many firefighters are careless and carefree about. We all think our hearing is indestructible. Especially the younger brothers and sisters, who think everything else about their bodies is indestructible as well. But, this is not the case, as you will come to find out in the coming decades. The steps you take today to protect your hearing, could help ensure the quality of life you would like to maintain, is possible in the future.
There is an OSHA Standard for Hearing Protection 29 CFR (1910.95). There is also a hearing protection requirement in NFPA 1500. Here's a link to USFA document regarding the issue:
http://www.phsource.us/PH/OC/FireFighters/fa-118.pdf
It's a dry subject and a dry read for sure.
But your department is required to provide as safe a workplace as possible. How many of you are working for a department that is carefully following the OSHA Standard/NFPA Guideline?
How many of you carry the same awareness to protect your hearing, as much as you protect your breathing in an IDLH wearing SCBA?
Are you practicing and training using power tools, and wearing ear-muffs as well? Is your department providing you with the latest in head-gear for hearing protection? Do your rigs have a set-up of head-gear with communication for everyone aboard? How about for the pump operator?
Practically speaking, it's impossible to protect your hearing at all times on the fireground. But did you know that the striking of the irons produces a decibel level of damaging proportions? Think about how many times you've been the firefighter holding the haligan while another member continually smacked the ax into it. Ever have a slight fuzzy ring in one or both ears after it was done?
The continued exposure to loud and damaging noise takes a cumulative effect over time on your hearing. You can go for years, decades, without noticing any problems.
But your department should be testing your hearing at least once a year. Are they providing that service to you, so you can understand as the years go by how the job is affecting your hearing?
Don't brush this topic aside. There's worse things that can happen to your hearing than going deaf. There's an illness called tinnitus. It's where one day, you start to notice that your hearing is making some kind of noise all by itself. The damage your ears had been taking all along suddenly can't take anymore, and the effect of the damage presents itself as a non-stop, internal, no-cure known, constant noise in your ear/s.
Put those ear-muffs on before you start that partner saw on your daily check. Develop ways to protect yourself, protect your ears, savor your exquisite hearing.
Question for the board: Is your department OSHA compliant regarding hearing protection standards? What do you do personally to protect your hearing while at work?

Get outside... enjoy some fresh air. At 14-17 years old, you shouldn't be fretting about such things from a TV show...

Isn't it about supporting our Brothers families? What if it was a plain tee? Would you still buy one? I would.JMHO

I don't understand why most people are condoning the actions of these LEO/FF's. This is a large truck with unknown material burning in the cab, that could quickly overcome the trailer and erupt into a catastrophe very quickly. Everyone is sooooo quick to jump down regular FF's throats when their waist straps aren't on correctly at a car fire, but these guys aren't wearing any PPE at all!
There is absolutely no life in jeopardy at this fire, other then their own, which they have placed themselves in. So they take an extra minute to put their PPE on and ensure that they will be safe. Maybe if they do that, traffic will be backed up for hours...WHO CARES. Its better then losing your life.
Edit: "What I am trying to say in that last paragraph is that when you double dip into the emergency services, now you have firemen thinking like cops, and cops thinking like firemen. Firemen now say 'Hey we NEED to keep this highway open, so lets disregard our safety so Jimbo can get to the bar before happy hour ends' instead of, 'Hey lets stop, do the safe thing, put all of our PPE on, and shut down the highway for however long it takes.' People will get over being late for work. Your family wont get over you not coming home."
Remember:
Myself
My Team
Other Life
Other Property
Incredibly reckless in my own opinion. I just wonder how this department operates at a structure fire based off this video......

1 centralized dispatch center and a county wide box system would be nice. Every town could get rid of redundency's throughout the county.

My friend, your logic is as sound as your spelling, grammar and sentence structure.

How much 690K?

Come on Guys. Let get real. Sounds like Riverside Hose company was not the one getting HOSED!! Sounds like they were trying to HOSE the city. $620,000 for an ENGINE. This is what's wrong with the volunteer fire service. Why do you need apparatus with all the bells and whistles on it?? All this does is drive the cost of the apparatus up. Does it make it more usefull, better?? NO!! For $620,000 you could but two Class A engines into service in any city. Folks need to start purchasing what's useful and practical for the city. I think in the times were are in, the city did a smart move and put the fire company in their place. And yes, I agree with several of the writers, that although the Crimson name only is relatively new, it is not a new piece of apparatus. This was a merger of two outstanding fire apparatus manufacturers. So, Riverside Hose your squirting the wrong hose.

I completely agree with the death penalty... you're one of those people who hide behind religion to cover up for your raging liberalism, my friend it's people like YOU that are the problem in society.
As I said prior, this will be hard enough for these officers without keyboard commandos like yourself spewing liberal nonsense and making a bad situation worse.
I don't know what your real job is but i can assure you that being a volunteer emt does not make you an authority on law enforcement and by your posting I can say i am thankful that you aren't a cop or even close to being a cop.
You and the other anti death penalty supporters fail to address one important thing in your arguments, THE VICTIM !!!!
The law allows that this man be put to death for his crimes and now his death warrant has been signed, finally justice for the victim !!!!
If you have such a problem with the justice system using the death penalty then there are always other places to live, I hear france is nice this time of year !

Friggin Wonderful!!!! We need jobs so people can afford healthcare...This bill justs gives these lazy jack offs who abuse the welfare system more of a reason to stay home and piss my taxes away....Thanks

What a shame.Welp. was a good run America.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have. Thomas Jefferson

Maybe the so-called "deafening silence" stems from the rather condescending nature of the way the issue was raised. Aside from the fact that it demands information from people as if they are compling some kind of official report for the Almighty, maybe people would rather talk about something other than a dead topic. Maybe volunteers such as myself would rather talk about something other than the ubiquitous threads and posts that make them look less than qualified for their jobs. Maybe we take umbrage at the implication that we care more about parades than public safety. Maybe we just don't care about what you're crying about today.

Flynn, as a suggestion, why don't you contact the chiefs of the departments for the information you need rather then ask for it in this forum? It's quite possible that the people in here don't have all the information that you need or they could end up giving you the wrong information without knowing it.

Hi everyone
I am a recent retiree from the Dist in question. You all know by my nickname, who I am. I have read the post on this subject and can agree with some and wonder about others.
I went to the Commissioners meeting last night and was surprised at the conversation that took place. Since this was a public meeting I can discuss what most of the meet was about. There are training problems here, the Commissioners have tried without success to train 100% of the volunteers FFs. They have tried for over 2 years to get everyone in sync with the state and federal standards. They have let FFs go and now they have the wolf at the door and must expel members and notify them by certified mail. These infractions are mostly for noncompliance(OSHA, Repritor test, bail-out, policy, Etc) The Commissioners discussed at length and were disappointed that not all volunteers made the grade after 2 years.
I can no longer make suggestions as a FF, but as a concerned citizen. I can only tell you how I feel and my experience with this district. As a CFF I did not like when Police Officers or Career firefighters from other Depts volunteered here and I knew that if I went to thier jobs to volunteer it would be a differant story. I was told by one career firefighter that he volunteered because he'll never make rank at his job, but could be a chief here. The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. This CFF also had better benefits then I and better pay, but did not mind stepping on my toes when it came down to benefits for me and my family. Which made me very defensive of my job.
After speaking to some CFFs and VFFs I now know that there has been problem at most of the recent fires. The blame game is going around in circles. There was a shortage of FFs to launch an interior attack and the few VFFs that could respond at least you were there. I am not going to second guess any decissions that were made by IC because I was not there. He made decissions on what he had and what he seen.
Standard staffing at this time is:
2 CFFs @ HQ(L35,E25?,R32)
1 CFF @ Sta-2(R75,E253,L10)
1 CFF @ Sta-3 (R80,E254)
1 CFF @ Sta-4 (U11,U50,E25?)
There has been cutbacks and there has not been any CFFs hired in almost 7 years. Is this a sign of the times I don't think so. Times were good and they still refused to hire. Guys say here that CFFs shortages are a sign of the times, well stand back and think are you working more, maybe a second job, whatever, your availablity to respond is alot less. They'er 7 positions that should be covered 4 shifts and 3 vacation floaters. There used to be 3 till 60c took dispatch 1 was dropped from HQ. As CFFs retired or transfered to other depts vacation floaters were put in permenent posts all openings are now covered by OT. OT will probably be the next complaint that the CFFs make to much. We all know that we went into this career for love and not the money. The CFFs that work @ Sta 2,3,4 are alone for their entire shift. The work force is shifting from 20s thru 40s to late 30s thru 50s, this is a problem. Without that shot of young blood more injuries and more absenteeism will happen causing a financial problem for the district.
As a concerned citizen I would hope that the career ranks are returned to there full strenght. That the second Lieutenant position be replaced so that the strain of training 32 CFFs and 60 or so VFFs to standards could be accomplished in a timely manner. They are other concerns that I have but these seem to be the most pressing at this time. By bringing the training standards for VFFs up to regulated specks this would make a more harmonious fire district for everyone.
There are facts and opinions in this post if you wish to call me out on any of these please do. I will try to answer your intelligent questions.

You're telling us that we should expect the departments involved to maybe "have a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out" and that we should "try to factor in how many of these people are working, or dedicated to some other issue in their lives" and that we should "give them a breaK"????
This was a private dwelling fire. right? So, if we should be understanding of an initial lack of manpower arriving in a timely manner at this fire, I guess we are going to need to be extremely understanding when there is a public assembly, multiple dwelling, or God forbid, a school fire in this area at 2:30 in the afternoon, and the people potentially trapped inside these aforementioned burning buildings and in need of rescue will need to be particularly understanding people as well I guess...
Why not just take an opportunity such as this to admit that there is a problem and try to fix it? Consolidation, regionalization, perhaps strategic use of career staffing...or, just cross your fingers and hope it all works out, and hope that everyone just "understands"...

I think the reason that all of this is getting out of hand is because all the Chief is trying to do is show that there is problems in certain parts of the county (actually 99% including career departments) whether it be response times, number of firemen on a crew, the correct amount of poppy seeds on a bagel.
No one is stepping up, on here, in real life, to our county, to the citizens, to our brothers and sisters who we trust our lives with and saying YES there is a problem and something needs to be fixed NOW! I have no problem with him, myself, or anyone for that matter pointing out a problem and attempting to set a course to get it fixed.
People might view these members as instigators or @$$h01es, and I was definitely one of those people a while ago. But now I look at them and view them as almost a one man crusade group to bring positive change and efficent and proactive fire protection to our county, and NOONE should be complaining about that.
We're always talking about consolidation and tanker task forces and laser beams and other fancy terms on this board. When was the last time anyone actually sat down at a county wide meeting and decided to implement / tryout / organize one of these ideas? When has anyone approached the state to change the tax and fire district laws to allow for a county wide fire service and not 50 some odd different departments? No offense to Seth and his staff because I think that this forum is a great stepping stone for ideas, but PLEASE Stop griping about it on an internet forum and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It actual upsets me to see people with these great ideas, but nothing ever gets accomplished because they never make it past step 1.
Please, somebody, ANYBODY stand up, raise your hand, something, and decide that you are the one who will accept this challenge to modify our service and do something about it.

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

First I will start out saying that I have very limited knowledge and hope that other more experienced members wiil chime in and aid in the discussion of operational tactics and use of the water can.
At Yorktown's fire yesterday, I, along with everyone else was impressed at the amount of fire that was knocked down with the water can. As I pulled up in the utility an noticed fire was pushing up the stairs and out the front door of the building, E270 arrived on scene and begain the basic bread and butter operations of an engine company. 3 members had streched a line to the garage / basement door, and were ready for entry while my LT and I headed to the front door with the irons and the water can and TIC. While the hose team was awaiting water, my Lt and I entered the building and he was able to hold and basically knock the fire down with just the simple use of the 2.5 gals of water. The room that was on fire was approx 5'x5' big and was the boiler and washing machine / dryer room. The fire had extended out of the room and was seconds away from catching the furnature at the top of the stairs.
Fire was banked about 1/2 down the height of the stairs and begining to travel into the garage and into the living room in the basement as well. My Lt and I made our way down the stairs and to the fire room and he begain hitting the seat of the fire and the walls/ celing with the stream quickly extinguishing most of the heated gases. Had this not been done, fire most likely would have continued travling up the stairs and spread throughout most of the living area.
That war story being told, I urge every department to carry and utilize the water can for both holding a medium sized fire in its place and extingishing a small fire before it gets out of hand while you are awaiting water. In a simple room and contents fire, the water can works wonders because in a confined area, when the water is applied, it expands to 1700 times its original size in the form of steam and will quickly darken down the fire. When a fire is little bit beyond the r&c stage, it can hold back and slow progression until the hose team arrives.
Im curious as to what other departments utilize this tool and how its implemented in their deparment. For mine, every rig with the exeception of the tanker and the brush truck carry at least 1 2.5 gal water can, and take it in on almost every alarm we receive. Im sure other can add more to this, but thats my rant for now.