FireMedic049

Clearly you have very limited knowledge of labor unions. For example, I am an IAFF member and Executive Officer in my Local. My Local is predominately an autonomous organization, as are all IAFF locals. We are bound by the Constitution & By-laws of the IAFF, but we, the firefighters ARE the Union. We handle our own business at the local level. If there is a grievance, WE are the one's who handle it. When it's time to negotiate a contract, WE are the one's who handle it.
The IAFF and our State Associations provide a wide array of support services and other assistance, but they do not come in and "take over" and fight our battles. The disgruntled employees along with the gruntled employees directly represent themselves.
As for the matter of union dues and initiation fees.........representing the interests of the group of employees (AKA bargaining unit) often requires money to do so. In order to properly handle many grievances, consultation with a labor attorney is essential and it's pretty hard to find one that doesn't bill for their services. Union dues is what pays for the attorney's advice.
The IAFF and the State Associations do assess a monthly fee per member and IMO it's fairly nominal for what it can provide to you. These monthly fees are what provides those support services to each Local with no additional charge! I would suspect that all of the locals collect monthly union dues in excess of these two fees in order to cover their operating expenses. Whatever that amount is, the members of that Local voted to set that rate! In fact, my Local unanimously voted for a significant increase in our dues last year in order continue providing what we provide and decrease our reliance on fundraising activities for that funding.
It's pretty ironic that you are advocating that employees engage in a concerted work stoppage (i.e. strike) in order to make improvements in their working conditions, but have repeatedly stated that you would cross a union strike line, that could feasibly be striking over the exact same issues as those non-union workers.

Yup and that's why my (33 man) Local raised and donated almost $15,000 to various local and national charities last year.I guess you aren't aware that in the "right to work (for less)" states, membership in a union is typically not mandatory.

So what's your point?
I can't speak to how this rate compares to the rest of that area, but a starting rate is typically just that - a starting rate.
The starting rate for EMS in the major city in my area (Pittsburgh EMS - all ALS providers) is in the same ballpark, but after 4-5 years they are somewhere in the mid-20s.
Regardless, the benefits of unionization do not lie solely in the $$ per hour an employee is paid.

I would tend to agree with your observations for my area too. Not so much for my department, because I think we tend to "understaff" our fireground. I see it a fair bit with the VFDs in the area. There's a few websites/facebook pages that put up pictures from fires in the area. There always seems to be a large number of people in fireman suits congregating about the scene not doing much in the pictures.

Career Department. Our initial response is the 6-7 firefighters on-duty. Most of the time, once the IC has confirmed a working fire, some or all off-duty personnel are recalled which can take upwards of 15 minutes or so until all of the additional personnel arrive on scene.

Typically, no, but it does happen.We have no other companies in-house at that point and calling for mutual aid is the only option for more personnel. All mutual aid are VFDs and I believe there is a reluctance at times to use them as "relief staging".
Yes, oftentimes it seems that way. Releasing them doesn't seem to be an overriding concern, but we seem hesitant to take a break and use them at times. No, largely because we really don't conduct them. Yes. I've personally voiced my concerns for a number of years regarding this reluctance to request additional help whether in-house or mutual aid when we have fires. A few more are starting to become more vocal about it now, so hopefully some change will be coming along soon. In our situation, moving them into the stations is sufficient. If we need them, they can be on scene within a couple of minutes as our city is fairly small - 5 sq miles. Additionally, given the access to the parts of the city in which the bulk of our fires occurs and what would likely happen if staged at or close to the scene, keeping them in the stations is good. Our stations are somewhat close to our primary mutual aid company districts. So, for the most part, they may respond to their own call from our stations or have another company cover that unit depending on the nature of the call. Their mutual aid is pretty close by too.

Because that would probably make sense and the tree huggers might be offended.

Because that would probably make sense and the tree huggers might be offended.

Because that would probably make sense and the tree huggers might be offended.

In my specific situation - Neither.
It wouldn't be appropriate to air the details of our "dirty laundry" on here, but I'll just say that we'd be better off adding a secretary to handle administrative stuff (like payroll and record keeping) and having no Fire Chief at all than where we're at currently.
I work for the community we serve.

In my specific situation - Neither.
It wouldn't be appropriate to air the details of our "dirty laundry" on here, but I'll just say that we'd be better off adding a secretary to handle administrative stuff (like payroll and record keeping) and having no Fire Chief at all than where we're at currently.
I work for the community we serve.

In my specific situation - Neither.
It wouldn't be appropriate to air the details of our "dirty laundry" on here, but I'll just say that we'd be better off adding a secretary to handle administrative stuff (like payroll and record keeping) and having no Fire Chief at all than where we're at currently.
I work for the community we serve.

We are a small career department and we are involved in the community on multiple fronts - Department, Union and Personal.
On the department level, we provide fire safety/prevention education to the community. This consists of annual visits to the schools to talk to the kids, fire extinguisher training, fire safety talks for businesses and assisting with fire drills in certain facilities. We also have a fire safety trailer that we take to various community events during the year. We also do pre-arranged station tours and welcome walk-in visits. We also do fire safety inspections for all private dwellings when a change of ownership takes place to ensure they are up to code. We also do commercial fire inspections, both at change of ownership, during the construction/renovation process and to satisfy annual requirements for some occupancies.
We also participate in various ceremonies and parades in conjunction with holidays like Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Flag Day, Christmas, etc. We participate in local National Night Out events. We patrol the city along with the PD and EMS during trick or treating.
On the Union Local level, we do charitable fundraising for various organizations. This year we did the annual Boot Drive for MDA, held what we hope will be an annual Kickball Tournament to benefit a local organization that helps kids with special needs, we have a drop off container for aluminum cans for recycle whose proceeds go to a local burn center foundation and we sell specially designed pink t-shirts for Breast Cancer Awareness, the proceeds go to a local foundation that assists breast cancer patients.
We sponsor a little league baseball team and help sponsor a softball league for kids with special needs. We purchase ads in programs for some of the local sports teams, school plays, etc. We donate money to other local charitable organizations. We just completed a coloring contest in the elementary schools in conjunction with fire prevention month in which we awarded a new bicycle and helmet to one girl and one boy in each school.
We help sponsor our local parades and helped sponsor the fireworks display at one our biggest annual community events. We participate in an annual Christmas tree decorating contest. We are also involved in the local political scene - attending Council meetings, endorsing candidates.
On a personal level, most of us live in our city and are involved in the same things other residents are. Some of our guys coach our little league team. Some of our guys coach other teams in the community. We have guys that work the polls on election day. We have guys that donate time to various organizations/churches.
There's probably more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

We are a small career department and we are involved in the community on multiple fronts - Department, Union and Personal.
On the department level, we provide fire safety/prevention education to the community. This consists of annual visits to the schools to talk to the kids, fire extinguisher training, fire safety talks for businesses and assisting with fire drills in certain facilities. We also have a fire safety trailer that we take to various community events during the year. We also do pre-arranged station tours and welcome walk-in visits. We also do fire safety inspections for all private dwellings when a change of ownership takes place to ensure they are up to code. We also do commercial fire inspections, both at change of ownership, during the construction/renovation process and to satisfy annual requirements for some occupancies.
We also participate in various ceremonies and parades in conjunction with holidays like Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Flag Day, Christmas, etc. We participate in local National Night Out events. We patrol the city along with the PD and EMS during trick or treating.
On the Union Local level, we do charitable fundraising for various organizations. This year we did the annual Boot Drive for MDA, held what we hope will be an annual Kickball Tournament to benefit a local organization that helps kids with special needs, we have a drop off container for aluminum cans for recycle whose proceeds go to a local burn center foundation and we sell specially designed pink t-shirts for Breast Cancer Awareness, the proceeds go to a local foundation that assists breast cancer patients.
We sponsor a little league baseball team and help sponsor a softball league for kids with special needs. We purchase ads in programs for some of the local sports teams, school plays, etc. We donate money to other local charitable organizations. We just completed a coloring contest in the elementary schools in conjunction with fire prevention month in which we awarded a new bicycle and helmet to one girl and one boy in each school.
We help sponsor our local parades and helped sponsor the fireworks display at one our biggest annual community events. We participate in an annual Christmas tree decorating contest. We are also involved in the local political scene - attending Council meetings, endorsing candidates.
On a personal level, most of us live in our city and are involved in the same things other residents are. Some of our guys coach our little league team. Some of our guys coach other teams in the community. We have guys that work the polls on election day. We have guys that donate time to various organizations/churches.
There's probably more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

Another reason why we have pensions and is often left out of the pension conversation is that many of us will not be receiving Social Security in retirement. We do not pay in and therefore will not collect any SS benefits unless we have enough secondary employment income in which we paid into SS to qualify. Even then, we won't receive "full benefits" and will likely have paid in more than we will receive in benefits.On the "unfunded liability" front regarding pensions, another point that is often left out of the conversation is that a frequent factor in pension funds being "under funded" is because municipalities often take "payment holidays" on what is supposed to be their contribution if the investments are performing good enough. However, the employees make their full payment (whatever it may be) every payday.
Damn straight!I know Dave, Local 60's President personally. Very good guy.

Move exclusively to robot firefighters.

The simple answer is this....
Most people are more concerned about being a victim of crime than a victim of a fire. As such, the layoff of police officers will typically generate more public dissent than the layoff of firefighters. Politicians know this quite well. Add in the fact that on a per incident basis, the PD is typically much busier than the FD along with the common misconception that firefighters just sit around the station sleeping and watching TV between calls and you have a much politically easier target to cut.

The simple answer is this....
Most people are more concerned about being a victim of crime than a victim of a fire. As such, the layoff of police officers will typically generate more public dissent than the layoff of firefighters. Politicians know this quite well. Add in the fact that on a per incident basis, the PD is typically much busier than the FD along with the common misconception that firefighters just sit around the station sleeping and watching TV between calls and you have a much politically easier target to cut.

Since this appears to be a combination department, you essentially already have 2 classes - career and volunteer. Additionally, the part-timers would only be "second class" if the department chooses to treat them that way.I work in a career department that added part-time personnel six years ago. It was done largely as a way to reduce some personnel expenses. In our experience, overall it has been a very positive thing and most of the "problems" created have been pretty insignificant so far.We lost 4 full-time positions (via attrition) in conjunction with this, however we maintained our average shift staffing level and on some days we had an "extra" guy. In a month, our daily minimum increases by 1 and more than likely, we'll get those 4 positions back at some point in the next year once they start racking up the overtime again. When that happens, we'll see an increase in our average shift staffing level.
We didn't have any FT vs PT problems with our only negotiation since they started. In part, because our PT guys are part of the Local and we made sure that we addressed their issues too.

You are partially correct. I haven't looked at the video yet, but my suspicion would be that film crew was wearing regular PFDs. As such, being tethered is not recommended for the reasons you stated and because that style PFD does not have any sort of "quick-release" feature that allows the wearer to free themselves from the tether.In a swift-water situation, the personnel attempting any sort of rescue operation or in a position where they could fall into the water should be Technician Level trained and wearing a Class V PFD. Any person entering the water should be tethered since the Class V PFD has a "quick-release" mechanism that would allow the wearer the ability to free themselves from the line if need be. Actually swimming after the victim is the "last resort" option and the rescue swimmer should be tethered when doing so. Once the rescue swimmer secures the victim, personnel on the shore will use the tether line to pull both back into shore rather than the rescue swimmer having to expend energy trying to swim and control the victim (who might be uncooperative due to the situation).

So are you saying that a protocol that requires FDNY EMS personnel to have their protective gear readily accessible and to wear it in hazardous situations is "self-serving"?I'm pretty sure that you'd be wrong. I have a hard time believing that FDNY EMS would move to 4-door chassis if their current ambulance module design could adequately accommodate their gear. Do you realize that their previous "regular" ambulance spec uses what is pretty much the smallest module that Horton makes (Model 403 which is a 137" x 96" body).
Something else to bear in mind. While the 4-door chassis will obviously turn worse than the 2-door chassis, FDNY Ladders and Tower Ladders are much bigger than these ambulances and they seem to be able to make their way to their calls.
It may remind you, but it's not the same thing.

Nobody is saying that EMS agencies need to provide their own rescue services. The point (opinion) of the video was that it was better for the patient when a single agency handles their situation from initial contact to delivery at the hospital. Additionally, the "investigation and prosecution" angle is not appropriate for comparison. Criminal investigation of an incident is not an integral part of the rescue, treatment and transport of a patient outside "preserving evidence" as best as possible.
I agree that personnel trained to work along side the FD in a rescue situation can be just as effective. However, that can be the "sticking point" in the discussion. When two independent agencies need to work in that fashion, is there necessarily the guarantee that all personnel are adequately trained? Let's say you have a high angle rescue situation. Unless all EMS personnel in the agency are trained in "rescue" as a job requirement, how do you ensure that the paramedic that wants to go to the patient is properly trained to do so? Do you just take his/her word that they know what to do?
Yes, certain medical situations do call for emphasis on prompt transport, however the reality is that the vast majority of patients calling 911 do not have ailments that necessitate immediate transport in order to influence the outcome.Yes, in those situations requiring a prompt transport, an ambulance would be better than only a paramedic engine. However, what you seem to be overlooking is that the patient is getting an ambulance too. The paramedic engine is providing interim care and it's arguably better for the patient to get care sooner rather than later if prompt transport is that important for that patient. If you take away the first response component for that patient and only send an ambulance, then the patient is likely still waiting the same amount of time for the ambulance to arrive, however they are doing so without receiving any care. I think it's pretty obvious which situation is better, even if it doesn't definitively affect patient outcome.
As you stated Medicare and Medicaid are customers. As such they do not actually run the healthcare systems, however they may have influence on the system as a consumer and this is not the same thing as the government actually running the healthcare system. When you say "municipal hospital systems" are you saying that the hospital system is owned & operated by the municipality in the same way that they "own & operate" the local FD, PD, DPW, etc. and ultimately operate under the Mayor/City Council or equivalent?I disagree that hospitals don't want the "minor complaints". The ER staff may not want the "minor complaints" that should be handled via urgent care centers or PCPs, however this desire is probably not shared by the executive management. What the hospital management doesn't want "choking" their ERs is patients without the ability to pay, whether via insurance or self-pay.I didn't say that EMS should only be used for emergencies. There are plenty of "non-emergent" complaints in which the use of EMS is appropriate or reasonable. What I said was that things like preventative care should be handled separate from the emergency response aspect of the operation.Maybe it's an issue of semantics, but to me there is a difference between "EMS" and "EMS agency". I don't disagree that it may be appropriate and/or necessary for EMS agencies to evolve and "handle more than just 'emergencies'". However, this does not necessarily mean that their "emergency" response resources (EMS) should be tasked with those new services. To continue the Fire/EMS comparison a little further, it may be appropriate for the FD to conduct it's own arson investigations, but should those investigations be tasked to the line companies and be held OOS for additional responses until the investigation is completed? I would submit that the most effective/efficient way to handle the arson investigation would be to have a dedicated unit to handle it just like it may be the most effective/efficient way to handle preventative care/outreach type services with resources that are separate from the emergency response resources. Now, this doesn't mean that "response personnel" can't be utilized for these tasks, just that when doing so, routine emergency response shouldn't also be "on the menu".

As a non-IAFF member, you are in no position to comment on what the IAFF's primary concern is or any concern for that matter.
Fire-based EMS does more than what you claim. Fire-based EMS involves more than just first response services. In some departments it may be just BLS or ALS first response. In some departments it may be BLS and/or ALS transport. In some departments it may be a combination of some sorts. Additionally, in some departments the transport aspect of their EMS is actually provided by non-firefighter personnel.So, to say the result of fire-based EMS is "FORCED ALS" is quite misguided, especially considering that many fire departments are not running ALS fire apparatus.
So fire-based EMS results in "forced medics" and that's "bad"? I would tend to agree that a person who is "not interested" in a particular task, may not perform as well as one who is. Well, let's look at this from a different angle.I'm not aware of any fire department that actually "forces" it's firefighters become paramedics, however I am aware of a fair number of fire departments that require their prospective recruits to be paramedics. I suppose I could be wrong about the force thing, but requiring that applicants be paramedics is not actually "forcing" someone to be a paramedic. It simply means that if a person wants to be a firefighter in that particular fire department, then they will need to become a paramedic. There are still some fire departments that do not routinely provide EMS response (mine being one of them).
What about firefighters that only care about going to fires being forced to do other things like vehicle/technical rescue, hazmat response, building inspection/code enforcement, fire prevention/education services among other tasks? Maybe we should have separate departments and personnel to handle these things since "being forced" to do something is so "bad"?
How is the provision of EMS in the FD so different from the provision of any of these other non-fire things in the FD? Why is it acceptable to require a firefighter to be trained for, respond to and operate at a hazmat incident, but not acceptable for them to be trained for, respond to and provide care at an EMS incident?
Maybe you should expand your horizons and become well versed in EMS history also. If you would do so, then you'd know that many of the first paramedics trained in the US were firefighters. Johnny and Roy may have been fictional characters in a 1970s TV show, however there was nothing fictional about paramedic-firefighters in the LA County FD in the 1970s.
You'd know that many FDs have been providing EMS in some fashion for 40+ years, long before anybody had the inkling to accuse them of "call padding", "justifying jobs" or any of the other ridiculous assertions of un-altruistic motive.

I don't believe that was the message of the video. The message I saw was that fire based EMS was the "best" way to go.Other than pointing out the fact that non-fire based EMS typically doesn't have the ability to provide full service care from start to finish like fire-based EMS can, how was it a disservice to them?
You are correct that putting the patient first and providing excellent care matters most. However, in many situations providing excellent care means that you have to take the care to the patient and doing that requires more than just showing up with an ambulance and some medical equipment. Typically, non-fire based EMS is not trained and equipped to provide care at the point of contact in all "rescue" situations. This inability could translate into providing the patient less than "excellent" care overall.

Is it necessarily any different than car dealers selling multiple brands?

From what I recall regarding this unit on another forum, this unit is going to more remote location in the county along I-95 that doesn't have an ambulance assigned to this station. Supposedly, the engine will not be a primary transport unit, but was given the ability to do so if need be.