bad box

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

I don't know anyone dragging these officers trough the mud here. I don't remember saying that the officers aren't sworn to protect life and property. I am tired of cops thinking the FD is against them here and on the street. The public may dislike them but I certainly do not. The facts still remain that most officers are not trained to encounter a fire in any building. How does that turn into us bad mouthing the PD? It's a fact of life. So as usual it has taken the LODD for people to wake up and smell the coffee and realize there is a problem with the system. What a shame!!
There are big differences to PD driving by a fire and stopping to render assistance while FD is notified or being dispatched and racing to the scene to dove right in. They will always beat us there.
The same goes for FD driving by a crime in progress. And stopping to render assistance and waiting for PD to arrive. We just don't get dispatched though.
So in conclusion if by starting this topic we have made our Brothers in Blue rethink entering an unknown fire condition we have done our job. To save LIFE.
Stop thinking we hate you, that could not be further from the truth

The words of a responding Police Officer at approximately 6:57 on the audio says it all, "Why are you sending PD in there if it's a fire?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM For everyone who is posting as if the injured and deceased police officers' actions are being questioned, please take a breath and understand that it's realized and respected that these officers were brave in their efforts to do what they thought was appropriate. Their sacrifice (as well as that of their families) is immense. What's troubling to me as a firefighter is that the NYPD has never trained their personnel in the proper actions to take or not take at a fire scene. The department is 100% guilty of placing its personnel in grave danger every-time they dispatch them to a 911 call reporting a building fire. PO's are motivated public servants who are going to take action when they respond to any incident. If there is no formal training and no official department guidelines for actions at a fire incident, these motivated, well meaning personnel are likely to end up in a place they shouldn't be, taking actions that may cause harm to themselves, civilians as well as responding firefighters. Hopefully Commissioner Bratton now understands that a police officer shouldn't be dispatched to confront a burning building anymore than a firefighter should be dispatched to confront a perp with a gun. Sadly, it is now time to mourn a deceased hero...

The words of a responding Police Officer at approximately 6:57 on the audio says it all, "Why are you sending PD in there if it's a fire?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItKHjeNjcZM For everyone who is posting as if the injured and deceased police officers' actions are being questioned, please take a breath and understand that it's realized and respected that these officers were brave in their efforts to do what they thought was appropriate. Their sacrifice (as well as that of their families) is immense. What's troubling to me as a firefighter is that the NYPD has never trained their personnel in the proper actions to take or not take at a fire scene. The department is 100% guilty of placing its personnel in grave danger every-time they dispatch them to a 911 call reporting a building fire. PO's are motivated public servants who are going to take action when they respond to any incident. If there is no formal training and no official department guidelines for actions at a fire incident, these motivated, well meaning personnel are likely to end up in a place they shouldn't be, taking actions that may cause harm to themselves, civilians as well as responding firefighters. Hopefully Commissioner Bratton now understands that a police officer shouldn't be dispatched to confront a burning building anymore than a firefighter should be dispatched to confront a perp with a gun. Sadly, it is now time to mourn a deceased hero...

I was involved 20+ years ago with an NYPD ESU officer who was killed in a fire response. It was a devastating event for many (my partner was his friend and the officer knew when he was to be intubated, he would not speak again. so he asked my partner to say goodbye to his family for him. The next day my partner quit EMS).
Since this is not the 1st time NYPD officers were critically injured while "operating" in a structure fire, I am surprised to find that the NYPD does not have a policy.
In my experience many police depts. including NYPD actually have a policy, its unwritten, but its very effective (sadly in a negative way). Police officers that attempt rescues are often given awards, sometimes promotions. This sends a very clear message to the members. This action is rewarded.
Many years ago we had a fire in an animal hospital & the FD rescued an attendant and a police officer (who had tried to make the rescue). A few months later their was 2 articles in the news paper (on the same page), 1) the officer receiving an award and detective badge, 2) the NYS Labor dept. was fining the PD for failing to follow the law in protecting the police officer.
My heart goes out to the officers and the families, but sadly this will happen again, because law enforcement in general believes they must respond to every call and do "something".

Dispatching law enforcement personnel to building fires for the purpose of entering an IDLH atmosphere and conducting a search is playing Russian roulette with the LEO's lives. Just as common sense tells us not to dispatch firefighters to crimes in progress for the purpose of taking police action due to the obvious extreme danger to firefighters as they are not trained or equipped for such action, law enforcement personnel should not be placed in harm's way inside a burning building. I feel for the injured officers and their families. The officers acted bravely but should never have been placed in a situation such as this by their department to begin with. I am amazed that any law enforcement officer would agree with placing his brothers and sisters in situations that they are neither trained or equipped to handle. An appropriate way of honoring the two injured PO's would be for the police commissioner to immediately institute an SOP for response to and actions to be taken at fire scenes by police officers. The main theme should be police officer safety. God bless the two injured PO's and let this be the last time such a tragedy is permitted to occur.

Bratton today commented that he called several other PD's to ask if they had a protocol for fires, and they did not, because it is not their job. Fire proof MD fires are not like any other animal. Door frames are generally in block walls with steel frames and doors, in other words, you won't be donkey kicking your way in to rescue anyone. This is going to be an extremely unfortunate event that has probably like someone said been done thousand of times. Except this time they went to a rubbish fire in a public hallway and not an apt fire. Hopefully only one casualty from this is the result, although I would venture to guess she is going to be severely disabled from her lack of oxygen as well.
You don't respond to fires with the intentions of saving anyone unless you are equipped and trained to do so, and with both being done by your employer. Im glad we had two good trucks on the box who are good at FPMD fires to be the ones to rescue these two. Hopefully a miracle will occur.

I know we have been down this road before and it just would not sit right if we don't bring it up again. When I respond to a call and I am advised by 60 Control to stage away till PD arrives I do just that. I can tell you that for every shooting, stabbing and assault call I respond to I ask if PD in en route. I also advise that we will stage away until clear to enter the scene. Do I want to help someone in distress? Yes I do. Do I want to be part of the action? Yes I do. Do I want to injure or kill one of my Brothers under my supervision and not return them home the same way they came to work. NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! Do we need to get on the radio to advise PD to stage away till our arrival? 2 Members of Public Safety are in critical condition for the simple fact that :
#1 They are not dressed in proper fire gear
#2 They are not wearing SCBA
#3 They most likely do not have elevator keys and or don't know how to control an elevator in a fire situation
#4 They are acting out of the scope of their job description
Does wearing a uniform transform us into something we are not? We tell civilians to vacate and do not return for valuables or anything else for that matter. When does the risk vs reward decision come into play? Do we really need to do another agency's job?
For everyone who gets his/her panties in a bunch over this post get over it! Hold a picture tight of your loved ones everyday and ask yourself one thing. Is this the smartest thing I am about to do?
I will say a prayer for the 2 NYPD members and I hope for a speedy and healthy recovery

F.D.N.Y. Rescue Companies responded to and operated at two dive jobs overnight in very close proximity to each other in Queens. Both jobs involved occupied automobiles that left the roadway and landed upside down in the water.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/car-filled-people-drives-creek-queens-article-1.1746537
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/suv-plunges-east-river-blocks-fatal-creek-accident-article-1.1746639

I guess no one in MKFD wants anyone to know they are a volunteer fire chief. Ghost graphics, slim line, and black???? Buff much? lol

http://nypost.com/2014/03/09/man-rescued-from-half-frozen-cemetery-lake/

Black huh? Another fire chiefs car that we don't want to look like a fire chiefs car? Who are we hiding from? Or are we just trying to look like a Secret Service motorcade?

thats why they charge more then every one else.way over priced.

This issue is nothing new,FDMV is a good dept. it's members are second to none in doing the best with what they have.Unless the city administration addresses the situation and provides them with the manpower they need nothing will change.The city has always treated the fd as a stepchild.They are a front line service and need to be fully staffed....

Mt.Vernons union president clearly stated on news 12 that they agree with Yonkers union that Mt Vernon abuses the mutual aid system regularly. He also said as long as neighboring depts continue to send units into Mt Vernon why would they hire?

Maybe... we should forward this incident to the CHP officer who arrested the firefighter last week for trying to protect the scene of an MVA.

If you have space to spare like that, you spec'd the rig poorly. I can't say I agree with it being all too difficult to simply stand or kneel on one hose load to pack another.

I strongly advocate that communities start putting the same price (or higher) on human life that they put on education, road repair, trash pick up, elected community leadership, librarys, law enforcement, etc.. I'd much rather see a county wide career fire, rescue, EMS system (supplimented by volunteers if available) rather than individual volunteer departments with the ever present (potentially life threatening) issue of inability to respond promptly (or at alll) depending upon time of day, day of week, type of call, etc..

I strongly advocate that communities start putting the same price (or higher) on human life that they put on education, road repair, trash pick up, elected community leadership, librarys, law enforcement, etc.. I'd much rather see a county wide career fire, rescue, EMS system (supplimented by volunteers if available) rather than individual volunteer departments with the ever present (potentially life threatening) issue of inability to respond promptly (or at alll) depending upon time of day, day of week, type of call, etc..

I strongly advocate that communities start putting the same price (or higher) on human life that they put on education, road repair, trash pick up, elected community leadership, librarys, law enforcement, etc.. I'd much rather see a county wide career fire, rescue, EMS system (supplimented by volunteers if available) rather than individual volunteer departments with the ever present (potentially life threatening) issue of inability to respond promptly (or at alll) depending upon time of day, day of week, type of call, etc..

I hope the community understands the real issue, they and 4 neighboring communities can not get an ambulance out to save a 4 y/o.
It really is time to regionalize and insure coverage.

I agree, I worked for a Pierce dealership for several years. It wasn't uncommon to see new rigs being sent back multiple times by the departments that purchased them due to problems that needed to be corrected (some were major problems). Although many in the fire service consider Pierce to be head and tails above the rest it's not the case, no manufacturer of fire apparatus is problem free.

Parades, bar-b-q's, softball games and having a couple of beers with friends are all potentially enjoyable social passtimes. Sadly, far too many V.F.D.'s are run more like social clubs rather than professional emergency service organizations. The posts here are a very small sampling of what goes on in many V.F.D.'s where politics (rather than the right skill set) determine leadership. This is made possible by the fact that there is no real oversight of the V.F.D.'s other than that which comes from in house elected boards of directors or town elected boards of fire commissioners who more times than not are mostly voted on by department members who are residents of the district. It is dangerous that in so many parts of our country we are still relying upon this type of back woods, good old boy 'system' when it comes to setting and enforcing the standards for providing life and death services for fire, rescue and E.M.S.. I believe that in many areas a county led combination career / volunteer system would best address this issue. Not only would it place the responsibility of enforcing training requirements for firefighters and officers alike in the hands of full time, career chief officers (who don't have to kiss up to the membership to keep their position each year, but it would also be an answer to the ever worsening problem of poor turnouts of personnel for calls at times of low availability as well as for calls that many volunteers choose not to show up for ( smells and bells, sick calls, etc.). It's high time that counties place as much importance upon the provision of fire, rescue and emergency medical services as they do upon law enforcement, education, road maintenance and recreation (all of which are run as full time career agencies).

He is their boss, he is ultimately responsible for the work they get PAID to do. They have a JOB to do, and that comes before volunteering at an organization. I can't tell my private employer that I want to be paid to go fight fires. That would be considered walking out of your JOB.
I mean hell, if people are going to go on calls while on the clock for the town, why not just PAY them to BE FIREFIGHTERS, not water/highway/parks workers.