sueg

you got my interest, you have staffing for 4 pieces of apparatus, but the truck isn't a priority. If it is sometimes last, and sometimes not at all, you don't need water, you need firefighters.
Ok, I'm not sure how my points about being firefighters first and being task oriented translate to a discussion of my department.
But I'll bite. We ALL need more firefighters. There are probably a handful of departments that would consider themselves fully staffed in the nation. And even those can find room for more guys.
I don't get why you feel the truck needs to be a priority all the time. Do you know how we operate? Do you know what equipment is carried on our pumps? Do you know that our coverage area is mostly rural and only 40% covered by hydrants? Would we like to have the truck on every call? Heck ya! Is it possible? Right now, no. How do we fix that? For now, a ladder is added to the rural district working fire run card. Problem is...it gets there way late. Can't win em all, but I think we do the best we can with our staffing.

you got my interest, you have staffing for 4 pieces of apparatus, but the truck isn't a priority. If it is sometimes last, and sometimes not at all, you don't need water, you need firefighters.

For those of you on departments big enough to have engine companies and truck companies...bravo, good on you. I work for the fourth largest department in my state. We staff four fire companies, an ambulance and a duty battalion chief. Why do I saw four FIRE companies? Because depending on when you get to the fire will depend on your assignment. Yes, we have a truck, a 100 foot TL. It is crossed staffed by three guys who also staff en engine and our second due ambulance. They may be LAST due to some calls. Some calls, they don't take the truck (gasp!), they take the engine. So engine guys - wait for it, this'll blow you away - do TRUCK work. I did it last night myself on the 4th due fire engine.
Having engine guys and truckies is a luxury we just don't have. We have firefighters who do tasks assigned as needed. So to me, the answer to the original question is this: YES. Until you can get BOTH pieces out the door every time, fully staffed, you need that first piece to have water on it. Having a piece of apparatus that could show up at a fire and operate alone for an extended period without water seems pretty dumb. My district is 10 minutes from the next closest station. So even if we did have an engine AND a truck out of my station, to run a dry truck that could end up operating alone for an extended period unable to extinguish the fire is stupid. Do what needs to be done based on tactical priorities, not based on what kinda vehicle you're riding on that day.

I don't think ALL trucks should carry water, BUT I think that depending on how your department operates, they should. I think it should come down to the need of the department and their responsibilities.
In our case yes. Our tower ladder carries 300 gallons and has a 2000 gpm pump . Several hand-lines and supply line and a portable master stream. Several times over the years the Tower has been either first due to several working structure fire, car fires and other fires were the engines were delayed ( mechanical/other alarms) and in a few cases the only piece able to respond.
We do a number of special events ( PR and demos etc), with limited manpower ( available to respond to calls ) and usually a full crew ( at the event) this piece can respond right away and be able to start suppression efforts. Since we are one dept and no separate engine or hook&Ladder co's we have to be able to operate every piece of equipment . Our other fire company co in town can have a 3-10 mile run to our district.
Typically this is our send piece out the door and many times (if there is no immediate need for the aerial),this piece has established the supply line to the Engine ( many cringing at that idea). It has also been utilized as the second or third fire ground pumper (attack lines). I almost lost 3 guys on day being cut off on a set of stairs and the line form the Tower ladder got the guys out. If our two engines are operating at another incident, this will respond, sometimes with the Tanker.
Has it pumped a hydrant - no, has drafted from a portable pond no , has it filled tankers no, but it could if need be. It has laid it's own supply line and supported itself many times, both in town and mutual aid. This works for us and will continue.
No, if we had a separate H&L co, with a good amount of other pumpers, I'd say no - if there is always a separate engine co responding, I don't see the need.
I'm a practical person... what is the need, how do we operate it. It comes down to NEED vs "I want"

Let us also not forget the efforts and sacrifices of our brothers/sisters in blue and in EMS on that day along with that of the crew and passengers on Flight 93 that prevented further tragedy.

I have often heard people question the wisdom of sending firefighters into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11th. It is not their fault, these people simply do not understand that firemen do what they do because they must, for without their actions lives would be lost. So much is made of the losses that fateful Tuesday 13 years ago and that is as it should be, but when looking back at that terrible day in New York let us not forget that the sacrifice of the 343 brave FDNY firefighters lost and the actions of their comrades who survived directly saved the lives of over ten thousand people, TEN THOUSAND!!!!. So in the midst of all the sadness and anger that comes with this day let us also remember that those 343 lives were not lost in vain.


I will never forget you, the 343, and all you gave, your sacrifice gave life to thousands, THANK YOU!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_n_...ature=youtu.be

http://www.jontzen.com/tributes911/only_time_tribute.htm
This is one of the better tributes. It is a reminder of what happened that day.
It reminds us that despite what the politicians say, there is still pure evil in this world.
In addition while it was one of the worst days in history, it was also one of our best. We came together like I have never seen before or since. Unfortunately it took the lives of almost 3000 martyrs to do it.
Say a prayer for those who were murdered that day.

I am not trained in the fire service, but this is another amazing job by Boston Fire Dept.
Most students moved back into the area this past weekend, so the area is bustling with college students from Boston University (and other area colleges).
This building is on a dead-end street which had to be a major challenge to the FD. (Good thing this was not the middle of winter, Ladder 14 probably won't make it down the street).
News reports said it went to 9-alarms. Six firefighters injured.
http://www.wcvb.com/news/massive-9alarm-fire-rips-through-allston-apartment-building/27871850#!bPBkTf

Well, is still it a violation if they don't transport anyone? Can they get paid to just drive around in an area outside their CON? And if the president just happens to be driving in the same direction, on the same road, at the same time... and then he needs an ambulance and flags you down....? Is THAT OK?

Sort of related to this is a bit of a story.
I heard of one department that had a somewhat secret way of letting members know how many were on board. This was not an official method and to the best of my knowledge the Chiefs were unaware. It was just a clue to other FF's to high tale it to the station if the secret code was not used. I thought it was an innovative way of doing this but the problem with any secret is that in order for it to work, people have to know what it means and if people know what it means those you are keeping the secret will eventually learn the truth. I don't think this is used any more in that department.
This idea was when responding to a call and having less than 4 FF's or (as it was explained to me) less than 4 GOOD FF's the unit signed on the way everyone else did "Engine X responding"
If the unit had a full crew of GOOD FF's the officer would simply insert the word company into the phrase and say "Engine Company X responding"
To most people it would not sound odd and if it did would be taken as a buff thing, not a secret code. The members listening to pagers would know if they heard the word company they were probably not going to the scene.

Used a similar system in a previous life... When you'd mark up as responding, if you said Engine X is responding, it was implied that you had a full complement of folks on board that met the requirement for the type of job you were going to. If not, you said Engine X is responding "lite with 3" or "lite with 1"... The number being the number of individuals who were qualified for the type of job you were going to. This way the IC while still enroute could determine if he was going to assign or call for additional resources.

Absent a system that provides for a common response it makes a lot of sense and is far more proactive than most places that don't do that until they're in way over their heads. Kudos to you for dealing with it!
When are we going to standardize the training for FF in NYS, though? Wouldn't it be nice if everyone called "firefighter" had the same credentials and qualifications????

The code means the number of Interior Firefighters on each apparatus, not including the driver. Between this and the use of I Am Responding, an Incident Commander can call for additional resources right away if they feel it is warranted, or can return units knowing one apparatus is packed. (IE for a commercial alarm, the IC can keep one rig coming in to investigate and return others knowing that one rig is well staffed).
Does that make sense?

I have asked a number of depts. and a number of financial managers who run LOSAP if they can show any proof that it works. No one has ever proven it. In many depts. it rewards the guys who would come anyway (which is not a bad thing) but that's not what its being sold as. Also I know of a lot of depts. that find it increases the #'s that show up at the station 20 minutes to late to get signed in, then go home.
Very few 20-30 year olds pay much attention to retirement, even when offered it. If you really are worried about it, I would spend my time working a 2nd job and/or education to move up in your current carrier would put you in better shape for retirement than a LOSAP, particularly based on the hours needed.

I know that for me personally, the LOSAP program had no bearing on my willingness to volunteer. I joined when I was 16...I doubt many 16 year old kids are thinking about their retirement (I know for sure that I wasn't). The department that I was in gave $20/year up to 40 years of service for a Max-Out of $800/month. This isn't going to break the bank that's for sure. When I quit the department at 26, the last thing that I was thinking about was my retirement fund. It didn't even cross my mind.
There is one thing that it does accomplish. It results in a bunch of 45-60 year old guys who come to the firehouse after the rigs have left on the run to sign the call sheet so that they get credit. This anomaly is generally intensified between Thanksgiving and Christmas when a number of the fork and knifers come down to look at the points posted on the wall and realize that they are 5 to 10 calls short of getting credit for the year. Then they step-up their loitering for the home stretch.
The guys who are in it because they like to get a little bit of heat are the first ones there and are on the rig in the sleet, snow, and rain regardless of the pension program!

Morningside Volunteer Fire Department, Company 27 (Prince George's County, MD) - Ambulance 827
2014 Freightliner - I believe the box is a Wheeled Coach
This is a county-owned piece that will be stationed/staffed BLS by our Members. Currently its still at the County radio shop getting some final work done before delivery.
Cell phone photo used with permission from an MVFD Member.

The difference between this picture and the use of Pompier ladders for confidence building is the design. One is used as it was designed and when used properly distributes the forces in a safe manner, so on top of being a confidence builder and physical ability test, it's also a decent lesson on distribution of forces. The aerial/ground ladder bridge is being used to defy the forces for which either ladder was designed and thus the lesson will hurt.

1) More about force than weight. Was it designed to have force in that direction? A number of ladder failures in the past were when one side was against the building and the other was not, as you crawl out does the weigh shift multiply because of the "level" you have created?
That's one reason why replaceable tips came into existence. Also many depts. do not test or do not care.
We had a catastrophic ladder failure in the 1990's and the litigation was in our favor because it was being used as designed and we had 100% compliance with the manufacturers maintenance policies and a recertification test 4 weeks before the failure.
2) we still train with them (but have not carried them in over 30 years). And you climbed or went home.

If you recall a few months ago the DCFD ambulance unit assigned to the White House ran out of fuel when it was supposed to join a motorcade taking the Obamas to dinner. Gauge had been broken for months and no one filled the tank or got the gauge fixed. I assume MLSS dis better than that?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2013/08/13/obama-white-house-motorcade-ambulance-out-of-gas/2647831/

1) No myth. I have heard it on more than 1 occasion. When asked where the baby would be, was told could be anywhere. I then asked if baby was a pet. twice it was a cat or cats. once a dog.
2) And we fight against additional manpower that is not hired or recruited into our dept.

firemen are traditionalists , the fresh air, "seeing the job from 3 blocks away" were all arguments Pro, The horse crap getting spattered Back at you, rain and snow.. were against along with stories Like This one from New Haven Ct. Fd
New Haven, CT Hose Wagon Accident, Nov 1899

I can't tell if you're putting on an act and playing dumb, or if you're actually involved in emergencies services when you can't even structure a written sentence into a logical, cohesive manor with proper syntax, grammar and annunciation, so the rest of the world can understand you.
I get that it's the internet, and that people really could care less about spelling late vs. L8, or Lmao.... But seriously brotha, pick up a book and learn the difference between a period and an apostrophe.
People might actually take what you're trying to convey to us seriously.

They really aren't "toys". Yes, it may seem like (PD-wise) there is a lot of equipment, but if something big goes down those 'toys" will be saving lives. And WCPD had much of this equipment WAY before any of the local jurisdictions even considered obtaining their own. They were the first and only department in the area to have things such as a riot control unit, DWI Enforcement and prevention, and one of the first and only "Jaws Of Life" in Westchester County. Post-9/11 grants made it possible for many cities and municipalities to obtain their own equipment when it previously would have been financially impossible, and County PD used it to build and improve on what they already had.
As far as municipalities that have a lot of specialized equipment and units, Greenburgh has a lot of their own.
WCPD and their SOD not only supports and trains with the "big cities", but nearly all jurisdictions in the county. They cover both primary jurisdictions (Westchester County facilities like Playland, all County Parks, the County Office building, the County Center, the Medical Center/Grassland Campus, Westchester Community College, and HPN Westchester County Airport. They also cover busy contracted highways, and are the primary PD's for the Town Of Ossining, Cortlandt, and Village of Mount Kisco). They also work protective details at many high profile events in Westchester, and maintain security of the massive infrastructure in the county.
And, it doesn't matter whether it's a "big city" or not. Incidents as like Newtown and Eastchester PD Officer Michael Frey are a tragic example of something that could happen anywhere. The Eastchester incident made aware the need for specialized equipment and training in Westchester.
There have been many stories over the past few years where WCPD resources have been credited with saving lives and apprehending suspects, as well as preventing and interrupting criminal acts. Many local jurisdictions depend on WCPD's specialized shared services every day, and all county citizens and visitors benefit from it.
Take a close look at the WCPD vehicles and the equipment they carry. They get used, it's quite obvious. And a lot of time has been invested into training personnel so they always have proper staffing in a timely manner 24/7. I hope one day I am extended the privledge to photograph some of their equipment to illustrate what they are capable of.
The only level that County PD disappointed me on was the disbanding of the mounted unit. Mounted units are a great and positive outreach tool for law enforcement-public relationships....especially nowadays. Mounted units are also great at crowd control and just their visibility can be very intimidating and a deterent to many. I hope they bring it back someday.
For more reading, the following link details all the different specialized units within WCPD, and many aren't even in the everyday public eye:
http://publicsafety.westchestergov.com/shared-services-sp-139

This is and always was specifically addressed in the rules that a known rescue is cause to suspend the 2 out. This was tested or clarification was requested early on when FD's asked for greater latitude in what a "known rescue" was. As I recall the ruling or guidance was pretty clear that their needed to be true evidence of a trapped occupant vs. it's 3 am and there's a car in the driveway.