16fire5

It seems like everyone is ignoring the side-by-side example of a consolidated volunteer department that sits right next door to the town in which this fire occurred. The town of Somers and the Town of Lewisboro have very similar constructs but have gone in opposite directions in terms of a consolidated department vs individual departments. Somers is about the same size as the Town of Lewisboro. They have 4 fire houses spread across town but operate as one department, with one chain of command, one set of SOPs, one fire district and consolidated resources. Conversely, in the Town of Lewisboro, they have the Golden's Bridge Fire Department, the South Salem Fire Department, and the Vista Fire Department (and the Lewisboro Ambulance Corps). Each of these departments are completely independent of one another and have their own chain of command, separate Fire District, separate equipment and their own set of SOGs.
In my opinion the consolidated volunteer department makes more sense for the following reasons:
The town of Lewisboro has 3 Mid-Heavy Rescue Units (Counting Rescue 24 may it rest in peace)...All of NYC has 5! The town of Lewisboro has 7+ Chief Vehicles. Each department in Lewisboro has at least 2 "Class A" engines so that they can stay in service when one goes out for maintenance. 90% of the time each engine rolls without a full crew anyway (thats if they can even get two engines out the door) Shortage of Officers. When I joined the fire service 10 years ago Vista Fire Department had 3 chiefs and a multiple captains, Lieutenants and Foremen, etc...now they are down to 3 officers (a chief, a captain, and a lieutenant). I believe that GBFD currently operates with two of their Lt. positions vacant. Moreover, many departments' by-laws are constantly being set aside to allow people who don't meet the professional qualifications to hold office. In many instances, members are being promoted to officer positions after being a member for only a year and having never been first-due to a car fire let alone a structure fire. What it all comes down to here is that you are ultimately going to get the same resources to a fire in both towns. In Somers you will probably get 20-30 members town-wide who will all respond to a daytime incident. In Lewisboro, you will get 10 members from the "host" department and 5-6 from each of the other 2 departments in town via mutual aid.
The differences however are major!
There will be a delay in resources because you have to wait for the host department to get on scene to dispatch mutual aid...they will have to operate with 4-6 people for at least the first 10-15 minutes until mutual aid can respond to their firehouses and then to the scene. There will be way too many Chiefs on scene because there will be 3 from each of the other departments in town...and not enough indians because anyone who is even remotely good will be a chief already (side note...I think Croton Falls had command on this last Goldens Bridge fire and at their firehouse fire last year). The manpower from the three independent departments will be less familiar with the equipment and personnel from the other departments than that of the one consolidated department. 3 sets of SOGs vs one consolidated set. I thought the side-by-side comparison may help clear up the confusion that a consolidated department would have to be paid. The Town of Somers could probably have ended up as the Granite Springs, Amawalk, Lincoldale, and Town of Somers fire departments had they wanted to go that route...for all I know they may have been at some point way back when.

A single department would have 1 set of SOPs. The initial alarm would get a standard alarm assignment. Maybe for this area 3 engines 1 truck and 3 tankers on the reported fire. When all the responding chiefs are members of the same department they would get assigned necessary roles as they reported in (basement division, division 1, safety, water supply).
A key to success is getting enough help there when it can make a difference. Too often the volunteer fire service in this area waits for a confirmed fire to call for adequate resources or runs out of resources on the scene and then puts the FAST to work and then calls for more help. In my opinion if you have a real working fire you should have at least one company standing behind you ready for assignment in addition to the fast. My opinion is that ability to forecast the incident needs and call for additional alarms early on comes with experience that is lacking for most volunteer ICs since they get kicked out every 2 years so everyone can have a turn as chief. As a young company officer I often though wow do we really need the second alarm that the chief just gave? We did. One of my first days as a Captain a well respected deputy chief visited me to give a little advice when i worked as an acting battalion chief. His advice was if the though of giving a second alarm even entered my mind he wanted me to give it.
As for this incident the factors involved seemed like a loser from the get go (basement fire and Colliers conditions) pulling the plug was the right move here and probably prevented injuries or worse.

A single department would have 1 set of SOPs. The initial alarm would get a standard alarm assignment. Maybe for this area 3 engines 1 truck and 3 tankers on the reported fire. When all the responding chiefs are members of the same department they would get assigned necessary roles as they reported in (basement division, division 1, safety, water supply).
A key to success is getting enough help there when it can make a difference. Too often the volunteer fire service in this area waits for a confirmed fire to call for adequate resources or runs out of resources on the scene and then puts the FAST to work and then calls for more help. In my opinion if you have a real working fire you should have at least one company standing behind you ready for assignment in addition to the fast. My opinion is that ability to forecast the incident needs and call for additional alarms early on comes with experience that is lacking for most volunteer ICs since they get kicked out every 2 years so everyone can have a turn as chief. As a young company officer I often though wow do we really need the second alarm that the chief just gave? We did. One of my first days as a Captain a well respected deputy chief visited me to give a little advice when i worked as an acting battalion chief. His advice was if the though of giving a second alarm even entered my mind he wanted me to give it.
As for this incident the factors involved seemed like a loser from the get go (basement fire and Colliers conditions) pulling the plug was the right move here and probably prevented injuries or worse.

A single department would have 1 set of SOPs. The initial alarm would get a standard alarm assignment. Maybe for this area 3 engines 1 truck and 3 tankers on the reported fire. When all the responding chiefs are members of the same department they would get assigned necessary roles as they reported in (basement division, division 1, safety, water supply).
A key to success is getting enough help there when it can make a difference. Too often the volunteer fire service in this area waits for a confirmed fire to call for adequate resources or runs out of resources on the scene and then puts the FAST to work and then calls for more help. In my opinion if you have a real working fire you should have at least one company standing behind you ready for assignment in addition to the fast. My opinion is that ability to forecast the incident needs and call for additional alarms early on comes with experience that is lacking for most volunteer ICs since they get kicked out every 2 years so everyone can have a turn as chief. As a young company officer I often though wow do we really need the second alarm that the chief just gave? We did. One of my first days as a Captain a well respected deputy chief visited me to give a little advice when i worked as an acting battalion chief. His advice was if the though of giving a second alarm even entered my mind he wanted me to give it.
As for this incident the factors involved seemed like a loser from the get go (basement fire and Colliers conditions) pulling the plug was the right move here and probably prevented injuries or worse.

A single department would have 1 set of SOPs. The initial alarm would get a standard alarm assignment. Maybe for this area 3 engines 1 truck and 3 tankers on the reported fire. When all the responding chiefs are members of the same department they would get assigned necessary roles as they reported in (basement division, division 1, safety, water supply).
A key to success is getting enough help there when it can make a difference. Too often the volunteer fire service in this area waits for a confirmed fire to call for adequate resources or runs out of resources on the scene and then puts the FAST to work and then calls for more help. In my opinion if you have a real working fire you should have at least one company standing behind you ready for assignment in addition to the fast. My opinion is that ability to forecast the incident needs and call for additional alarms early on comes with experience that is lacking for most volunteer ICs since they get kicked out every 2 years so everyone can have a turn as chief. As a young company officer I often though wow do we really need the second alarm that the chief just gave? We did. One of my first days as a Captain a well respected deputy chief visited me to give a little advice when i worked as an acting battalion chief. His advice was if the though of giving a second alarm even entered my mind he wanted me to give it.
As for this incident the factors involved seemed like a loser from the get go (basement fire and Colliers conditions) pulling the plug was the right move here and probably prevented injuries or worse.

Have to agree with "16fire5" on the extinguishment of wind driven fires. Was 1st due engine at a high-rise MD fire on Broadway, opposite the Lincoln Center plaza. Fire was on the 20th(?) floor in an apt. facing the west (Hudson River), started by a halogen torchire lamp, that fell on the bed. The maid opened all the windows to "get the bad smoke out";called bldg. maintenance; and wheeled the occupant (Lionel Hampton, the jazz musician) out,leaving the apt door open.Eventually the concierge called 911. My engine company was across the street on an EMS run, in a hotel, babysitting a dead body awaiting PD,when my MPO reported fire out the windows across the street from us. We ended up 2nd due, and stretched a 2nd standpipe line down the hall. The truck tried to breach a wall from the adjoining apt., with no luck. Anyway, it went to 5 alarms, with the 1st alarm engines getting 2nd degree burns. The 4th and 5th alarm engines, down from Harlem, busted our chops about the ghetto guys putting out our fire, but truth be told- they could only advance their line as fast as the contents burned away. You cannot put out a wind-driven fire if you are coming at it from the downwind side. The KO curtain /fire blanket would have been put to good use at that fire, but it was not yet in our "toolbox" of equipment/tactics. Sorry for the long-winded tale from an old retired guy! Still miss "the job" every day!

As for the wind driven fires noted by some-experience has taught us that no matter how much gpm you are flowing in the hallway you won't accomplish anything since you can't make the seat of the fire. 2 2 1/2's in a hallway have failed to make headway while less than 200 gpm on the fire does the trick. While sometimes our interior crews finally make the fire apartment it's usually after a great amount of time 30+ minutes and the fire has ran out of fuel and usually some of the first few firefighters end up with burns.
I'm not a fan of automatic nozzles either but there are some great constant gallon nozzles out there now that can give you the same flows as a smooth bore at 50 psi. Also if you flow them next to each other on straight streams you can't tell the difference after 30 feet. I'm happy with the smooth bore myself especially for standpipes but I don't have issue with using constant gallon nozzles at structure fires.
As for our lightweight hose the leaking was not limited to the coupling area actually most of the hose tested weeped the entire length and close examination revealed cuts to the integral jacket and delamination.
How much hose do most departments bring inside? We bring 3 50' lengths but next arriving companies are coming up with more.

The formulas we use are so antiquated that they really don't tell us what we need to know. The NFPA did a research study on this a few years ago and they found the coefficients we use are too high. They also found out what seems pretty logical that these values vary between not only manufacturers but even different model lines. You could read the whole report and your head might explode. The best advice I have is to get some inline flow meters and test your actual set-ups then use your P-touch label maker and put them over the discharge as a starting point for the shifts when your least capable chauffeur has the wheel.
http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/determination-of-fire-hose-friction-loss-characteristics

The formulas we use are so antiquated that they really don't tell us what we need to know. The NFPA did a research study on this a few years ago and they found the coefficients we use are too high. They also found out what seems pretty logical that these values vary between not only manufacturers but even different model lines. You could read the whole report and your head might explode. The best advice I have is to get some inline flow meters and test your actual set-ups then use your P-touch label maker and put them over the discharge as a starting point for the shifts when your least capable chauffeur has the wheel.
http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/determination-of-fire-hose-friction-loss-characteristics

Not really. As I have found running down in PG County, when everyone meets the same basic standards there's only one way to judge the caliber of firefighters: based on the merits of your abilities and whether you can keep the rigs staffed, not on whether you're paid or vollie.
Go experience how other places do it, and you'll pound your head against the wall when you return to the antiquated ways of the northeast. Not to say that PGFD is the be-all, end-all, we have plenty of problems too. But we get rigs on the road with certified Firefighters and Fire Officers, and fires go out. And other than the patch on our arm there's no way you can tell the difference between career and volunteer.

This is why NFPA 1901 requires AED's on all apparatus even if you do not provide EMS 1st Response. This is why all firefighters should have CPR and even CFR or EMT as a minimum.

One thing I would now advocate which is different to what I was taught and did is to don your facepiece on the ground ascend the ladder and then take the window. The old way of taking the window with the ladder then ascending the ladder then donning your facepiece is just extra time allowing the fire to grow. Once inside the first thing you should do is to get the door to the room closed. These things will buy you more time for your search. VEIS is a good tactic especially in a situation like VBFD faced here. Seems like VB has their act together thanks for sharing.

One thing I would now advocate which is different to what I was taught and did is to don your facepiece on the ground ascend the ladder and then take the window. The old way of taking the window with the ladder then ascending the ladder then donning your facepiece is just extra time allowing the fire to grow. Once inside the first thing you should do is to get the door to the room closed. These things will buy you more time for your search. VEIS is a good tactic especially in a situation like VBFD faced here. Seems like VB has their act together thanks for sharing.

One thing I would now advocate which is different to what I was taught and did is to don your facepiece on the ground ascend the ladder and then take the window. The old way of taking the window with the ladder then ascending the ladder then donning your facepiece is just extra time allowing the fire to grow. Once inside the first thing you should do is to get the door to the room closed. These things will buy you more time for your search. VEIS is a good tactic especially in a situation like VBFD faced here. Seems like VB has their act together thanks for sharing.

Check out youtube on a search using "Thamesford Fire-Lessons Learned"
It is one of the best critiques I have ever seen.
Sorry I had to give you a phrase to search, but for some reason, I couldn't give you a link but my computer is giving me a hard time

These events have been the cause of many, many injuries which is why many places have gone to dry downs which I believe are a party celebrating the apparatus without the water fight. I recently sat and witnessed one while fire police closed a portion of a federally funded highway (I highly doubt they had a permit) and the week before witnessed numerous units responding to another one in a commercial area and was unable to convince my daughter that it really wasn't an emergency. I know a chief that did everything possible to make an event safe and still ended up with injuries and he and the former fire coordinator of Orange implored departments to stop the practice but it fell on deaf ears. It's only a matter of time before an apparatus lurches forward and runs someone over at one of these events.
I like the idea of the blessing and I'll probably do that when I get my next rig. Hopefully the atheists don't get me in trouble.

Unless those paramedics would take over policing in the unincorporated portion of the Town of Ossining I don't see the point.

Unless those paramedics would take over policing in the unincorporated portion of the Town of Ossining I don't see the point.

Unless those paramedics would take over policing in the unincorporated portion of the Town of Ossining I don't see the point.

Unless those paramedics would take over policing in the unincorporated portion of the Town of Ossining I don't see the point.

In 2010, Ossining town contracted with Westchester County police and saved an initial $600,000, though some were hopeful at the time that much more could have been netted.
A police merger involving Ossining town and its villages of Ossining and Briarcliff Manor had initial promise but did not proceed even though a consultant estimated the savings could be nearly $3 million.
The town was paying roughly $3.4 million a year for police, but cut its expense after contracting with the county to about $2.3 million a year.
Still out there is the town police headquarters built in 2005 on North State Road that is unused and now for sale at $3.5 million. The town owes about $3 million on the one-story structure.
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/2014/06/22/police-mergers-spending-case-by-case/11100709/
Now did the new contract proposal:
The county, which has been under contract to patrol the town for nearly four years, has proposed continuing the service for between $2.46 million and $2.7 million a year. The total cost of the four-year contract would be $10.3 million compared with $7.5 million to contract with the village.
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/2014/07/18/ossining-weighs-police-proposals-village-county/12847425/
So why should the town go with the village? $2.8m lower cost in the proposal over 4 years. The big question is what level of service will be provided and can the village really provide the level they are proposing for the price they are asking?

If you have a budget you must stay within, the money man is just a waste, unless he will nitpick every item, then he is a major detriment.
I have sat on committee's for career, combo and volunteer depts. and if you have a target amount and/or a max amount you are set.
Many committees I have witnessed have no clue what the process is and spend time on everything but what is important...i.e we don't care how much water actually flows through it (as long as the plaque says xxx more than some other dept). But we spent 20 hours debating if the blue light should be on the left and the red on the right or the other way around. (and it takes 5 minutes to change the lens so what difference does it make)
The other big mistake I see is "we want it exactly the same as the unit its replacing but 30 years newer" ...... Does that rig perform the way it needs to? "No, but we still want the new one to be the same". In 30 years have you ever used the front suction with the shiny cap on it? "No but we want it on the new rig so they look the same".

How about two and the consultant. I know it's too practical and everyone wants to go on a "free" trip.

I have never understood this. To the best of my knowledge NY is the only state in that prohibits fire departments from billing for EMS. I never will understand it. There are plenty examples where ems was broken off the fire department because of billing. I understand it's on FASNY's agenda but I would think the association of fire districts should make it their sole purpose to get it done. The only reason Silver is able to suppress it is no one talks or hears about it. If it was in the news being pushed by all the stakeholders (I even think we could get volunteers and career to agree on this one) it might be force into a vote. If every time a state level politician bumped into their local fire chief or commissioner it was mentioned how this handicaps fire departments/districts and plenty of local articles by fire districts complaining how an antiquated law is financially stressing the district it would have a shot. With the tax cap pressures this should be even more important to us these days.

I have never understood this. To the best of my knowledge NY is the only state in that prohibits fire departments from billing for EMS. I never will understand it. There are plenty examples where ems was broken off the fire department because of billing. I understand it's on FASNY's agenda but I would think the association of fire districts should make it their sole purpose to get it done. The only reason Silver is able to suppress it is no one talks or hears about it. If it was in the news being pushed by all the stakeholders (I even think we could get volunteers and career to agree on this one) it might be force into a vote. If every time a state level politician bumped into their local fire chief or commissioner it was mentioned how this handicaps fire departments/districts and plenty of local articles by fire districts complaining how an antiquated law is financially stressing the district it would have a shot. With the tax cap pressures this should be even more important to us these days.