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JM15

Standpipe Equipment

29 posts in this topic

The other hose discussion got me thinking... Plus we need some good discussions on here.

What is your standpipe equipment compliment?

Hose?

Nozzle?

I have seen a few different methods.

x635 likes this

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2 inch hose w/ a smooth bore

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In addition to 3 lengths of attack hose (with a 4th as an option for some buildings with long stretches) Yonkers would often carry an extra wheel and pipe wrench in case the wheel was missing or the operating stem rounded. E306 carried a male NPT to 2 1/2" NY Corp. nipple since often the brass fittings were stolen. We made up a short length of 2 1/2" hose with a 2 1/2" by two 1 1/2" wye so we could flow water immediately, bleed the garbage out the open side of the wye and then be ready to quarter turn the valve to the attack hose once the officer called for water.

The nozzle was a smooth bore 15/16" tip.

Edited by batt2
JM15 and M' Ave like this

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In addition to 3 lengths of attack hose (with a 4th as an option for some buildings with long stretches) Yonkers would often carry an extra wheel and pipe wrench in case the wheel was missing or the operating stem rounded. E306 carried a male NPT to 2 1/2" NY Corp. nipple since often the brass fittings were stolen. We made up a short length of 2 1/2" hose with a 2 1/2" by two 1 1/2" wye so we could flow water immediately, bleed the garbage out the open side of the wye and then be ready to quarter turn the valve to the attack hose once the officer called for water.

The nozzle was a smooth bore 15/16" tip.

This is exactly the response I was hoping to get.. Great information thanks for sharing Chief!

When you say attack hose what size are you referring to?

batt2 likes this

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This is exactly the response I was hoping to get.. Great information thanks for sharing Chief!

When you say attack hose what size are you referring to?

When I was in company it was 1 3/4" hose. Now many departments are going with single-jacketed 2" hose. It's worth trying...

JM15 likes this

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The most important tool to carry is the inline gauge. One model is made by Kolchek the other is made by Elkart I think ? Both do the same thing. Remember if you don't know how much PSI you have certainly your GPM won't be correct. I see some Engine company's carrying 5 valve wheels? This is the fire department which means if you carry 5 wheels you will need the sixth. Just carry one aluminum pipe wrench. Leave the wye on the rig btw concentrate on getting one good line up and running. A standpipe operation is a low pressure system Pre 93 and post 93 constructed systems will provide you with only so much pressure see NFPA 14 for further information.

2-1/2" increaser and Decreasers of pryolite material are needed as well. I have many other items of interest but let's get as many people to make suggestions so everybody gets in on the topic.

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Some outfits have gone to 2in. hose with 2 1/2 in coupling. Interesting concept less friction loss and no need for reducers at valve. However the most important feature is the 15/16 straight tip nozzle, it was shocking to see how many Departments had some sort of fog nozzle which required 100psi to operate correctly on standpipe lengths ( A major issue in Philly Meridian Plaza fire, when standpipe pre set reducer valves were put on wrong floors coupled with fog nozzles, thus causing a pressure disaster, as I recall three firefighters died and fire operations were stopped and the building abandoned as they were afraid this high rise would collapse into downtown Philly.

Straight tip nozzles would have used the available pressure and developed some sort of fire stream, maybe not perfect but at least a stream not the dribble from the fog nozzle. Sadly, they ended up stretching 5in supply hose up something like 22 floors, could you imagine ??

bad box and Bnechis like this

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When I was in company it was 1 3/4" hose. Now many departments are going with single-jacketed 2" hose. It's worth trying...

Once again nail on the head lol I was trying to steer the discussion towards the 1 3/4 vs. 2inch debate that seems to be occurring.

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JM 15 Go with the 2 in. hose over 1 3/4 as you know often there is a pressure issue with standpipes, especially before FDC is charged, Really poor standpipe pressures can be experienced on a regular basis and especially in summer time often on relatively low floors. May I suggest that you have folds of 2 1/2 in/ hose available for that really tough job, large open commercial floor space (the dreaded acre of fire) or some wind driven spectacular. . Folks in may Departments have been using 2in for several years now and for use in this "neck of the woods" it seems well suited and realistic with present manpower,

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I understand the comments about 1 3/4" vs 2" what I am curious about is what type of hose places are using. batt2 stated single jacket, what are other places using ?

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I understand the comments about 1 3/4" vs 2" what I am curious about is what type of hose places are using. batt2 stated single jacket, what are other places using ?

We have been using 2" rubber hose. 75' lengths for about 20 years.

"Angus Hi-Power is an ultra-lightweight, maneuverable, nitrile rubber hose designed specifically for fighting fires in high rise buildings. The lightweight through-the-weave construction is heat and puncture resistant, kink resistant and has low friction loss. The rubber cover prevents water from penetrating the reinforcement thus minimizing the weight of the hose when in service. The standard color for Hi-Power is blue."

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new York city use to have light weight hose for stand-pipe operations. the control man and back up man each had a roll up of 2 1/2 inch light weight hose, white with red stripes. the nozzle man lead length was 2 inch light weight hose, green with red stripes with a 1 inch smooth bore tip. when charged the current 2 1/2 inch hose that the city went back to weighed approx. 135lbs, light weight 2 1/2 123lbs and the 2 inch was about 83lbs. the department recently ordered all engine companies to remove all light weight hose off the rig so now we are back to the normal 2 1/2 inch line with 1 1/8 tip. our control bag remains the same. in-line pressure gauge, increasers, nozzle, operating wheel, chocks, adaptor, 18 inch pipe wrench, F tool, hammer and wire brush.

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Does FDNY always use 2 1/2"" for all Standpipe Jobs weather Commercial or Residential?

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Does FDNY always use 2 1/2"" for all Standpipe Jobs weather Commercial or Residential?

Yes. The reduced friction loss is chief among the reasons, plus fire load and water volume for wind impacted fires.

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Great Post M' Ave! I also just wanted to add that FDNY uses an 18" pipe wrench because it opens to 2 1/2" inches so you can uncouple the cap on the standpipe outlets. You can also use it in place of the trusty F-Tool to gain leverage to turn the operating wheel. Use the inline pressure gauge to set your flow as they bleed the line of air and always open the outlet all the way before setting the pressure. Much easier to gate down your flow than struggle to catch up. AND if you're ever having a problem getting water from the outlet, Let everyone know right away!

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Some outfits have gone to 2in. hose with 2 1/2 in coupling. Interesting concept less friction loss and no need for reducers at valve. However the most important feature is the 15/16 straight tip nozzle, it was shocking to see how many Departments had some sort of fog nozzle which required 100psi to operate correctly on standpipe lengths ( A major issue in Philly Meridian Plaza fire, when standpipe pre set reducer valves were put on wrong floors coupled with fog nozzles, thus causing a pressure disaster, as I recall three firefighters died and fire operations were stopped and the building abandoned as they were afraid this high rise would collapse into downtown Philly.

Straight tip nozzles would have used the available pressure and developed some sort of fire stream, maybe not perfect but at least a stream not the dribble from the fog nozzle. Sadly, they ended up stretching 5in supply hose up something like 22 floors, could you imagine ??

Another good reason to avoid using fog nozzles for standpipe operations is the fact that even after flushing the standpipe (prior to connecting the attack line to it) there will still be rust and sediment present. These contaminants will clog the fog nozzle creating a loss of GPM's or even a complete loss of water from the nozzle. Debris must be fairly substantial to occlude a 1 1/8" smooth tip ( although I've seen many unusual items that have caused problems even with the smoothbore tip over the years.)

FirNaTine and batt2 like this

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+1 to this. SOP's have the control man flush out the standpipe before hooking-up. However....you can't flush 20 foors worth of water (or 40, 50, ect) and something could very well come through the line and clog at the tip. However, you're much better off with a 1 1/8th smooth bore tip, both for lower propensity to clog and for it's superior penetration ability.

My personal belief is.....automatic/fog nozzles have no place in interior structural firefighting. They have a multitude of applications in brush, rubbish, decon, utility emergencies, exterior and many others....but a straight up house or apt. fire.....i'll take the smooth bore.

AGREED.

It must be nice to have a control man. Sure beats stretching the line, then running back to open the valve, then running to open the nozzle and flushing it, then hoping the pressure is correct, because you can't really adjust it. Or hoping the next due engine can get it for you.

This is how most depts. are forced to operate

M' Ave likes this

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AGREED.

It must be nice to have a control man. Sure beats stretching the line, then running back to open the valve, then running to open the nozzle and flushing it, then hoping the pressure is correct, because you can't really adjust it. Or hoping the next due engine can get it for you.

This is how most depts. are forced to operate

And then praying the MPO hooks up to the red siamese and not the green one! LOL!

Bnechis likes this

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Some outfits have gone to 2in. hose with 2 1/2 in coupling. Interesting concept less friction loss and no need for reducers at valve. However the most important feature is the 15/16 straight tip nozzle,

Since flow is related to the tip make sure you are not short changing yourself.

1 3/4" hose use a 15/16" tip and get around 180gpm.

2" hose use a 1" tip and get around 210 gpm

2 1/2" hose use a 1 1/8" tip and get around 250 gpm

Might want to color code the tips because it's easy to put the wrong one on and it go unnoticed.

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As for the wind driven fires noted by some-experience has taught us that no matter how much gpm you are flowing in the hallway you won't accomplish anything since you can't make the seat of the fire. 2 2 1/2's in a hallway have failed to make headway while less than 200 gpm on the fire does the trick. While sometimes our interior crews finally make the fire apartment it's usually after a great amount of time 30+ minutes and the fire has ran out of fuel and usually some of the first few firefighters end up with burns.

I'm not a fan of automatic nozzles either but there are some great constant gallon nozzles out there now that can give you the same flows as a smooth bore at 50 psi. Also if you flow them next to each other on straight streams you can't tell the difference after 30 feet. I'm happy with the smooth bore myself especially for standpipes but I don't have issue with using constant gallon nozzles at structure fires.

As for our lightweight hose the leaking was not limited to the coupling area actually most of the hose tested weeped the entire length and close examination revealed cuts to the integral jacket and delamination.

How much hose do most departments bring inside? We bring 3 50' lengths but next arriving companies are coming up with more.

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Have to agree with "16fire5" on the extinguishment of wind driven fires. Was 1st due engine at a high-rise MD fire on Broadway, opposite the Lincoln Center plaza. Fire was on the 20th(?) floor in an apt. facing the west (Hudson River), started by a halogen torchire lamp, that fell on the bed. The maid opened all the windows to "get the bad smoke out";called bldg. maintenance; and wheeled the occupant (Lionel Hampton, the jazz musician) out,leaving the apt door open.Eventually the concierge called 911. My engine company was across the street on an EMS run, in a hotel, babysitting a dead body awaiting PD,when my MPO reported fire out the windows across the street from us. We ended up 2nd due, and stretched a 2nd standpipe line down the hall. The truck tried to breach a wall from the adjoining apt., with no luck. Anyway, it went to 5 alarms, with the 1st alarm engines getting 2nd degree burns. The 4th and 5th alarm engines, down from Harlem, busted our chops about the ghetto guys putting out our fire, but truth be told- they could only advance their line as fast as the contents burned away. You cannot put out a wind-driven fire if you are coming at it from the downwind side. The KO curtain /fire blanket would have been put to good use at that fire, but it was not yet in our "toolbox" of equipment/tactics. Sorry for the long-winded tale from an old retired guy! Still miss "the job" every day!

Long winded tail nothing! We (guys on the job in the last decade + need to hear your stories). This is a key training example in the Wind Driven Fire discussion. Thanks for sharing.

FirNaTine and JM15 like this

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Gino's cap

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Another important tool that needs to go in the bag is a 20degree elbow it's not always needed but sometimes it is, without it you will suffer from a kink in which this is a low pressure system to begin with, kinks are no good (one 90 degree kink can cost you 16-20 GPM)

Guys have talked about hose a little bit when looking at hose specs. Take in account the couplings pull out force they are different from one to the next. This is important for two reasons all the times you hose test which I believe is too much pressure to begin with NFPA should take it down a notch?. but also you don't want couplings pulling apart in the middle of a hose stretch up the side of a building or a hose stretch in a well.

AFS1970 and FirNaTine like this

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Each engine carries :

1- 100' 13/4" with for nozzle

1- 100' 13/4" with fog nozzle. 21/2"x 2- 1 1/2" leader wye attached to line . 2 spanner strapped to pack.

One engine carries a 50' 2 1/2" line with a water thief attached. 2.5"x2.5"X2- 1.5".

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Have to agree with "16fire5" on the extinguishment of wind driven fires. Was 1st due engine at a high-rise MD fire on Broadway, opposite the Lincoln Center plaza. Fire was on the 20th(?) floor in an apt. facing the west (Hudson River), started by a halogen torchire lamp, that fell on the bed. The maid opened all the windows to "get the bad smoke out";called bldg. maintenance; and wheeled the occupant (Lionel Hampton, the jazz musician) out,leaving the apt door open.Eventually the concierge called 911. My engine company was across the street on an EMS run, in a hotel, babysitting a dead body awaiting PD,when my MPO reported fire out the windows across the street from us. We ended up 2nd due, and stretched a 2nd standpipe line down the hall. The truck tried to breach a wall from the adjoining apt., with no luck. Anyway, it went to 5 alarms, with the 1st alarm engines getting 2nd degree burns. The 4th and 5th alarm engines, down from Harlem, busted our chops about the ghetto guys putting out our fire, but truth be told- they could only advance their line as fast as the contents burned away. You cannot put out a wind-driven fire if you are coming at it from the downwind side. The KO curtain /fire blanket would have been put to good use at that fire, but it was not yet in our "toolbox" of equipment/tactics. Sorry for the long-winded tale from an old retired guy! Still miss "the job" every day!

macaulay culkin job ? Heard a lot of stories about this job from the brothers in my house. Would love to hear more stories from retired guys
FirNaTine and Capejake72 like this

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Good lesson on flushing the standpipe before hooking up, at a fire when this wasn't done, saw a Hostess Tweekie wrapper cause havoc at a standpipe operation

FirNaTine and batt2 like this

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