helicopper

I don't think anyone is second guessing the officers involved in this incident or their professionalism, nor should anyone because without being there we don't know what transpired. But unforunately this incident, as well as the New Rochelle incident does send the wrong message to the general public.
When police involved shooting incidents occur, I frequently see questions being asked by people along the lines of, "Why couldnt they shoot the gun out of his hand?", "Why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?", and now, "Why didn't they just Taser him?". Unfortunately, when it comes to force-on-force encounters, the general public only knows what they see in Hollywood and the occasional reality TV show such as Cops. Obviously, if true police officers possessed the skills of Steven Seagal, Sylvester Stallone, or any one of the many "action hero" police officers in Hollywood, all we'd have to do is look at criminals and they would surrender. And reality shows such as Cops rarely show force-on-force encounters which result in the use of deadly physical force. In fact, I can only recall one episode where a police officer in Massachusetts shot a perp who charged him with a knife in the middle of the roadway.
The problem with applying a less lethal option against an armed adversary who has threatened deadly physical force is that it looks all great in the paper and in the eyes of the public, but what about the next Police Officer who appropriately applies deadly physical force to an armed adversary? Members of the general public, especially critics of Law Enforcement, as well as the media, will drag that Police Officer through the mud, questioning why he/she couldn't just disarm the perpetrator. Law Enforcement today has become more concerned with looking good in the eyes of the public and critics of Law Enforcement tactics, which in turn is jeopardizing the lives of Police Officers, as well as the reputation of certain Police Officers who use appropriate tactics and follow the use-of-force continuum.
With that being said, the Officers involved in this incident should be applauded because they did do a great job. They were able to disarm and apprehend an armed subject without injury to themselves or any members of the public.
Remember, it was our fantastic current Governor who, prior to being Governor, introduced a bill that would have forced Police Officers to "shoot to wound".

Well, without knowing any details, as clearly no one else here seems to either, I will not be second guessing the PPD officers. They are a very active agency, who see their fair-share of activity, and I have no reason to suspect they handled this situation with anything other then the utmost level of professionalism.
Anyone who works in Peekskill/Cortlandt/Buchanan knows the Dabbs/Brown crew on a first name basis...

I think the fence will be an immense help. Not so much for jumpers, as already mentioned, they will still find a way. Rather, when the bridge finally hits it's breaking point and crumbles/collapses, it will give motorists something to cling to while awaiting rescue.

I'm assuming Goose is referring to the number of unnecessary casualties because of the inability of the EMS system in Westchester County to properly and adequately respond to a "larger scale" disaster or mass casualty incident. EMS in Westchester County is a disaster in itself. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with volunteer or paid services, but rather the system as a whole.
First problem is an overall lack of coordination. With all of the different agencies out there, all of the different Captains and Chiefs, all the different dispatching agencies, and all of the different unit designations that don't follow the County's designation system, in the event of a larger scale disaster, coordinating a multi-agency response would prove to be rather difficult.
60 Control has manpower to handle their current workload (or at least I guess they're supposed to!). If more agencies became a part of the 60 Control dispatching system, 60 Control would have to hire more dispatchers to handle the increased workload. With their current manpower and technology, can 60 Control handle the increased workload if there is now a significant county-wide disaster where they are attempting to coordinate a number of agencies, especially agencies that do not utilize 60 Control as a dispatching resource?
I think the second problem is a lack of training and education. This is a problem that doesn't just fall on the County or any of the County agencies, but it also falls on the EMS providers. I think it's great that everyone goes through NIMS compliance training, but how many EMS providers are truly confident with responding to an MCI in terms of establishing sectors and following the standards for MCI response? In the event of a disaster, how many EMS responders are properly trained or equipped (even in terms of basic personal protective equipment) to handle treating patients in an austere environment, whether it be a collapse or confined space environment, operating in the warm zone of a hazardous materials environment, or operating within the warm zone of a tactical environment in the event of an active shooter scenario?
A lot of of this training is not readily available to EMS providers. The OFPC won't allow you to take a Rescue Tech-Basic course or a number of other courses they offer unless you have completed basic firefighter training. So what's the alternative, pay hundreds of dollars out of your own pocket to recieve this training through private training organizations? And then when this training does become available, how many EMS providers will actually take advantage of the opportunity? I know myself along with a handful of other providers will, but unfortunately the majority won't. So now what happens when that large scale disaster happens, everyone is out there doing their own thing, and then someone gets hurt because they didn't have the proper training or equipment? Now those untrained providers are becoming more of a hinderance then a help.
The County handed out these Level B hazmat packs a few years ago, I believe 10 or so to each agency. Has anyone ever looked inside of them? How many EMS providers know how to properly don and doff the equipment in those packs? When was the last time anyone checked the filters for expiration dates or damage to the foil packaging they come in to ensure that they are still in good working condition? How many agencies have trained with the equipment?
The County went out and purchased and equipped MCI trailers. Does anyone know what's inside of them? What are the capabilities of the equipment inside of them? Who is responsible for ensuring that these trailers make it to where they get to get to in the event of a disaster?
This is the kind of half-a** provisions that the County makes for its EMS providers. But what else can they do? They have no real authority when it comes to EMS. As long as EMS providers go to a bunch of CME's and pointless call audits, it's all good, we're doing a good job. Let's go celebrate at Playland everyone!
In the event of a large scale disaster, we can really only count on active EMS units that are currently in service to respond. I'm confident that a number of volunteer agencies will staff their ambulances and be ready to respond, but we can't count on every agency having the appropriate manpower to staff EMS units. Commercial providers will more then likely pull transport units to provide extra assistance as well, in addition to mutual aid units from outside counties as well (Rockland, Putnam, etc.).

Agreed. This is a pretty broad topic.

Hi everyone
I am a recent retiree from the Dist in question. You all know by my nickname, who I am. I have read the post on this subject and can agree with some and wonder about others.
I went to the Commissioners meeting last night and was surprised at the conversation that took place. Since this was a public meeting I can discuss what most of the meet was about. There are training problems here, the Commissioners have tried without success to train 100% of the volunteers FFs. They have tried for over 2 years to get everyone in sync with the state and federal standards. They have let FFs go and now they have the wolf at the door and must expel members and notify them by certified mail. These infractions are mostly for noncompliance(OSHA, Repritor test, bail-out, policy, Etc) The Commissioners discussed at length and were disappointed that not all volunteers made the grade after 2 years.
I can no longer make suggestions as a FF, but as a concerned citizen. I can only tell you how I feel and my experience with this district. As a CFF I did not like when Police Officers or Career firefighters from other Depts volunteered here and I knew that if I went to thier jobs to volunteer it would be a differant story. I was told by one career firefighter that he volunteered because he'll never make rank at his job, but could be a chief here. The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. This CFF also had better benefits then I and better pay, but did not mind stepping on my toes when it came down to benefits for me and my family. Which made me very defensive of my job.
After speaking to some CFFs and VFFs I now know that there has been problem at most of the recent fires. The blame game is going around in circles. There was a shortage of FFs to launch an interior attack and the few VFFs that could respond at least you were there. I am not going to second guess any decissions that were made by IC because I was not there. He made decissions on what he had and what he seen.
Standard staffing at this time is:
2 CFFs @ HQ(L35,E25?,R32)
1 CFF @ Sta-2(R75,E253,L10)
1 CFF @ Sta-3 (R80,E254)
1 CFF @ Sta-4 (U11,U50,E25?)
There has been cutbacks and there has not been any CFFs hired in almost 7 years. Is this a sign of the times I don't think so. Times were good and they still refused to hire. Guys say here that CFFs shortages are a sign of the times, well stand back and think are you working more, maybe a second job, whatever, your availablity to respond is alot less. They'er 7 positions that should be covered 4 shifts and 3 vacation floaters. There used to be 3 till 60c took dispatch 1 was dropped from HQ. As CFFs retired or transfered to other depts vacation floaters were put in permenent posts all openings are now covered by OT. OT will probably be the next complaint that the CFFs make to much. We all know that we went into this career for love and not the money. The CFFs that work @ Sta 2,3,4 are alone for their entire shift. The work force is shifting from 20s thru 40s to late 30s thru 50s, this is a problem. Without that shot of young blood more injuries and more absenteeism will happen causing a financial problem for the district.
As a concerned citizen I would hope that the career ranks are returned to there full strenght. That the second Lieutenant position be replaced so that the strain of training 32 CFFs and 60 or so VFFs to standards could be accomplished in a timely manner. They are other concerns that I have but these seem to be the most pressing at this time. By bringing the training standards for VFFs up to regulated specks this would make a more harmonious fire district for everyone.
There are facts and opinions in this post if you wish to call me out on any of these please do. I will try to answer your intelligent questions.

As Grumpy stated in his post # 37 Eric is a Mutual aid coordinator (that is our proper title) the designation of Battalion was created years back, prior to that the deputy coordinators were county car #. THe mutual aid coordinators are battalion 10 to 19 and we all are assigned specific areas. The position of mutual aid coordinator is basically that of a resource officer, to get the IC what they need. This post is titled Mohegan fire 2/8/10, however I will not take a shot at them or any other department anywhere career,vollie or combination. It has been said in this thread and several others about consolidation, when the hell is everyone going to wake up and see that numbers are dwindling both career and volunteer (not all departments, but many). Why isn't consolidation discussed seriously? A one word answer - EGO. Some people in authority need to pull the heads out of their a** and look at what they are REALLY providing everywhere. This is something that should be looked at from the inside before (like a lot of the regualtions & standards we have now) are forced upon us by outside or government agencies. This is all basically a turf war kind of thing from my point of view, personally I don't care what the name of the department is on the side of the truck that pulls up IFO my home as long as they know what they are doing when they get off their truck. ANother area where consolidation might help, look at all the different organiztions in Westchester (volunteer side) and we wonder why the volunteer service isn't heard by our elected officals. How about 1 organization with different branches or divisions, maybe we would get taken seriously. All this would be great, but let's face it fantasy island does not exist!

Tommy, i still think youre a big bad guy . But seriously, nobody should "shoot the messanger" here. You bring up good, valid points as do most members who have already replied to this topic. As you said, the truth hurts sometimes...its the fire service, man up and get over it.
Ive said it before, ill say it again; im neither pro-volly/pro-career or anti-volly/anti-career. Tommy, i like the term "pro-service." We are all here to provide a service to the communities we serve. If for whatever reason, we can no longer provide such service adequately, then we need to do something about it.
Ive been in the volunteer fire and ems system for 11 years or so now. Ive seen alot of changes, some good, some bad. Training standards for vollies have increased, but are still nowhere near where they should be in my opinion. But its becomming more and more clear that volunteer agencies (fire & ems) everywhere are struggling big time. This is not fair, nor safe, for our communities or our members. The old days of "we do the best we can" and "we're only volunteers" need to be just that, the old days. This mentality needs to stop because people are going to lose their property and god forbid, their lives if this continues.
As for the volunteer system, we've talked about consolidation. Consolidation would be a step in the right direction, but still may not be the end all solution. I know guys are sick of me using the Tri-Village as an example, but its what i know. 7 pumpers, 2 Tower Ladders, 2 rescues, various utilities, "command cars," 9 chiefs, 3 captains and 8 or 9 lts. All this out of 3 stations protecting a combined area of approximately 20 square miles and averaging a combined 400-450 calls a year (thats not fact, just a round about number). We'd be much better off with maybe 3 pumpers, 1 ladder and one rescue and could do this out of 1 station. We could also eliminate many of the officer positions, all the while having a greater pool of officer candidates. As a combined dept, we'd have greater member turn-out to calls and in essence would most likely reduce response times. Eh, but what do i know, im just a young vollie from Buck-Town lol.
What i like about this thread/topic is that it has changed a bit. Some may recall the same issue/topic brought up regarding a fire in this same district a week or so ago. That topic got alot of attention and got some feathers ruffled. But what i like is that now there are vollies that are starting to see the issues and are contributing to this thread without getting uptight. Hey Chief Flynn, i think this is what you strive for, for people to wake up and see the issues facing the fire service. So bravo for getting many of the members here to wake up.
As for Mohegan, i will start by saying they are a good department, career & volunteer. Ive had the pleasure of working with them at calls as well as train alongside their career & volunteer members. However, as i said in the last Mohegan thread, they could use more career staffing hands down. They are just too big and busy of a district to rely on volunteers and limited career staffing.
Lets face it (i think the career guys will agree with me here), having 1 career member show up on an apparatus is just "smoke and mirrors." It is an unsafe and unfair practice for these career firemen to be riding solo to jobs. The public just sees it as "well, i called 911 and a fire truck showed up within a few minutes." They dont see that its just one guy hoping that others will show up. This goes for other combination depts as well. It is not the fault of the career members, because they do the job they were hired and trained to do day in and day out. But something needs to be done before someone is hurt.
alsfirefighter...dont quote me, but others have asked the same staffing question regarding Mohegan. I believe when they are "full-staffed" there are 3 career ff's at HQ (1 for the engine, 1 for the ladder & 1 for the rescue) and 1 FF at the remaining 3 stations. Thats a total of 6 career FFs on shift mannning 4 stations. I dont know about you, but those numbers dont add up to me.
Someone brought up better use of current career staffing. Ive tried in my head to see how this can be accomplished for a dept such as Mohegan. The only answer is to hire more firemen. Say there are 6 FF's per shift. Would you put 3 on an engine, 3 on a ladder? No, because they would still be understaffed and that would leave the other stations/apparatus unmanned.
On a side note: Westchester is one of the, if not the highest taxed County in this great nation. How is it that soo many States have County run fire and ems depts? LA County (CA), Clark County (NV), Miami-Dade (FL), Anne-Arrundel (MD), Baltimore County (MD) just to name a few. These are all County wide, County run depts that work! Most are 100% career, with the exception of some in Maryland and a few others. Why is it that Westchester couldnt accomplish this? Just something to think about.

105 views so far...I bet I can double that at least...

You're telling us that we should expect the departments involved to maybe "have a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out" and that we should "try to factor in how many of these people are working, or dedicated to some other issue in their lives" and that we should "give them a breaK"????
This was a private dwelling fire. right? So, if we should be understanding of an initial lack of manpower arriving in a timely manner at this fire, I guess we are going to need to be extremely understanding when there is a public assembly, multiple dwelling, or God forbid, a school fire in this area at 2:30 in the afternoon, and the people potentially trapped inside these aforementioned burning buildings and in need of rescue will need to be particularly understanding people as well I guess...
Why not just take an opportunity such as this to admit that there is a problem and try to fix it? Consolidation, regionalization, perhaps strategic use of career staffing...or, just cross your fingers and hope it all works out, and hope that everyone just "understands"...

It may have been a good stop but that is most likely because of proper training of a few, and not sufficient manpower at the beginning of the fire ( when it matters). If my house was on fire I wouldn't want to wait 10 minutes for 3 departments to assemble meanwhile everything I owned burned. Just because it was the middle of the day isn't an excuse, you're either a well staffed department or you're not and if you claim to be that means you can fight a fire at anytime of day no matter what. While I love being a volunteer firefighter I don't want to watch my house burn to the ground, or be one of those first in firefighters knowing that I have no back up outside whatsoever.

That's actually not what mutual aid plans are drawn up for, at all.

at 2:30 in the afternoon on a monday how many firefighter do you expect can show up??? try and factor in how many of these people are working , or dedicated to some other issue in their lives ??? THAT IS WHAT MUTUAL AID PLANS ARE DRAWN UP FOR give them a break. christ even my department had a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out but we provided sufficient manpower to mohegan. Given the time of day and that no one was home we all (meaning all the dept.'s that responded) , and where the fire started and how it traveled made one hell of a stop on that house and to all the members of this site that are members of the departments that responded to that fire you/we made one good stop guys good job!!

Yeah, time alone means nothing, but when you meet an experienced provider like GAW on a call for the first time, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Instead too often people and especially damn medics come rolling through like our poo don't stink and dismiss the lowly EMTs on scene. Some take the idea that respect is earned a bit too far and demand everyone start at the bottom.

Wow..crickets as usual...
So many still live in the land of make believe.

Dont worry they will still be allowed to do whatever they want...

I'm not against anyone speaking their mind, asking questions or offering advice to improve things.
What I am against is the hypocratical nature that this forum was founded upon. "Your knowledge helping others." Asking questions that only instigate debates and hard feelings does nothing for anyone involved. For example, what, if anything, has the questions regarding Banksville's response done? My guess - NOTHING.
A general rule I abide by is that you should only type what you would say to someone's face. Way too many people hide behind their keyboards.
This is all going to turn into a pissing match, because one side will be convinced they're right, and the other side thinking they're right. It will lead to heated discussions and will rarely be of any use to anyone. Eventually people will tire of reading the debates and criticism on this site and find other avenues to vent. Unfortunately, it will be AFTER someone's feelings are hurt.
It's bad enough that certain people (not just on here) constantly make younger, newer and more impressional members feel inadequate and/or that their whole existence and/or organization is a joke. Some read what others post or write as gospel and become combative to the order within their own ogranization. I, personally, have learned A LOT from here, probably more so than most other things I read, yet I know the difference in spirited debate compared to others who see it as bashing.
I don't think censoring is permissable, but I do think we all need to remember that what we say here can and will hurt feelings, and the ramifications can be worst then a lot of people are realizing. A prime example that I am familiar with involves certain postings by some in regard to certain organizations that resulted in bad blood between several organizations. It's immature, I know, but this is the world we live in.
People don't know when to tune out certain things and when to listen. Like Chief Flynn says, Quit taking it personally, but for all too many this is impossible.
If discussion about incidents is going to be permitted, then everyone better grow a thick, THICK skin, because firemen are our own worst enemy and our biggest critics.
Game on...

I am a member of a number of forums, newsgroups, blogs and other interactive online resources. Today, I typically browse to see what the current discussions are about but rarely contribute as I just don't have the time. I do, however, enjoy the commentary and what people have to say.
Compared to every site I visit, this forum has the highest number and most frequent posts concerning censorship, banning, what is appropriate/what is not and consistent reminding of the forum rules. Granted, I haven't run a statistical analysis but this is my observation.
I realize rules are rules and the administration has made a strong effort to maintain a professional tone on this forum. Having worked in the technology/online field for over 12 years, I understand the complexities of running a site such as this.
I applaud the administration for obviously devoting considerable time to this site. I do, however, want to encourage everyone to let the discussions flow. There will be times when there are disagreements, in-accurate information, hurt feelings (QTIP) and heated conversations. Don't forget, however, that this is the Internet. Unless it's a .gov or .edu address, don't rely on the information you read online as "source material". Take it for what it is worth.
And, please, common sense should dictate what is posted and how you read it.
Just my opinion.

In the line of work we're in time and experience is not enough to earn respect. I don't want to be respected just because I've been a provider for 20+ years... I'd want to be respected because I am a competent provider, not because of the amount of time that I have in the field. I've met plenty of 20+ year EMT's who I don't even trust to take a simple blood pressure, and I've met some EMT's whose ink on their cards is still wet, but I trust them and their skills enough to take a blood pressure or to set up an IV bag for me. IMHO, respect needs to be earned, not granted just based on how many years of experience you have.
Competence is important in our line or work. It's nothing personal. It says nothing about the kind of person the incompetent provider is. They can be the nicest person in the world with their heart in the right place, and I will commend anyone who tries to do the right thing and is willing to learn. But as a provider, I'll respect the 2 day EMT who's competent over the 20 year EMT who's incompetent any day.
Unfortuately the thinking that "I've been and EMT for 20 years" equates to one being a competent provider is a dangerous way of thinking because you don't allow yourself to realize your own deficiencies because providers end up with the "I know it all" attitude. You never stop learning... I find myself sometimes going to younger medics now with questions, especially since I left the field full time, and I am not ashamed to ask or get a second opinion.

Prior to talking it to death on EMTBravo, any ongoing issues with response time was just the dirty little secret in the closet. If nobody knows about it and nobody brings it forward than nobody will ever fix it.
More than 10x the number of people who post here have already read this thread. If the right person does, it may change everything.
Ways have been offered, Lots of people want to pretend all is well.

I think the reason that all of this is getting out of hand is because all the Chief is trying to do is show that there is problems in certain parts of the county (actually 99% including career departments) whether it be response times, number of firemen on a crew, the correct amount of poppy seeds on a bagel.
No one is stepping up, on here, in real life, to our county, to the citizens, to our brothers and sisters who we trust our lives with and saying YES there is a problem and something needs to be fixed NOW! I have no problem with him, myself, or anyone for that matter pointing out a problem and attempting to set a course to get it fixed.
People might view these members as instigators or @$$h01es, and I was definitely one of those people a while ago. But now I look at them and view them as almost a one man crusade group to bring positive change and efficent and proactive fire protection to our county, and NOONE should be complaining about that.
We're always talking about consolidation and tanker task forces and laser beams and other fancy terms on this board. When was the last time anyone actually sat down at a county wide meeting and decided to implement / tryout / organize one of these ideas? When has anyone approached the state to change the tax and fire district laws to allow for a county wide fire service and not 50 some odd different departments? No offense to Seth and his staff because I think that this forum is a great stepping stone for ideas, but PLEASE Stop griping about it on an internet forum and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It actual upsets me to see people with these great ideas, but nothing ever gets accomplished because they never make it past step 1.
Please, somebody, ANYBODY stand up, raise your hand, something, and decide that you are the one who will accept this challenge to modify our service and do something about it.

I think that censorship would be the worst thing that could happen. It would probably cause more members to leave or be angered then any other reason. When we disagree, somebody, somewhere is not going to like what someone else's opinion is. Here on this site many times opinions, are not opinions, they are fact, as proven by recordings and records. By shining the light of truth on subjects that are not discussed anywhere else on the internet, everyone will better from it. I know when I ask questions I get answers here. I called my local FD and got a recording, A RECORDING.
I guess it comes down to
If you don't like it, don't read it.
If it is an opinion, voice your own.
Facts are discuss-able not disputable.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you cannot answer the questions, you should not be in a position to be asked.

I have learned much watching this site over the years and it is only because of truth and factual talk that I and everyone else has benefited.

I say no to censorship. People have the right to express thier opinions. I have always maintained the belief that being thick-skinned is part of this business. If you can't handle criticisms in a forum can you handle it anywhere else?????

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

Up to this post I have not seen any "monday morning quarterbacking" or " commentary." What I have seen is people simply asking questions. Is this a bad thing?