nfd2004

Pete does that system you mention involve a Career Firefighter being given orders to by a Volunteer Lt ? If so, just by the nature of the accountability issue, there might be a problem trying to implement that. For that career firefighter, he comes under a semi military form of discipline, with plenty to loose if he disobeys an order.
 
Now lets reverse it. A career Capt gives that Volunteer Lt an order. That Vol Lt doesn't follow the order. "What type of disciplinary action can be applied to him ?
 
Yes, that volunteer Lt took and passed the same test as those career Lts., but it will never really be equal.
 
Just as I mentioned the story earlier of the topless lady photos taken in a firehouse. There were two totally different standards applied. Those career firefighters faced some serious charges if they had done it. While the volunteer firefighters, who actually committed the incident, had no action taken against them. The reality is, "nothing could be done against them".
 
Just by virtue of passing the same test, does not make things equal.
 
Here's an example. As a new officer, I was once called into the chiefs office for a personal issue. One of the firefighters got in a little trouble. I wasn't even there when it happened. As I headed to the office both the Union President and Vice President met me in the hallway. I was surprised to see them, so I asked what was going on ? The union president then said to me; "Willy do you want us to go in there with you" ? I asked "for what". They then told me the charges of what I was accused of and said, "he wants you suspended for 30 days". I couldn't believe that. Of course as it turned out, I was completely innocent and after serving four days of my 30 day suspension, I got my job back and also the four days back pay I lost.
 
 First of all, sometimes it's no fun being an officer. In the career dept you are held accountable for everything that goes on. But my real point here is the kind of standards that career officers are held too.
 
  Here's another example which happened within the last year or two. A career Lt is inside a building fighting a fire on the line with his members. Outside, the pump operator was NOT wearing his helmet. I believe he had been told to do so earlier on. The pump operator got suspended and the Lt was written up for not disciplining his men. He had no idea this guy wasn't wearing his helmet.  
 
 Both true stories. Now can a Volunteer Lt be held to such standards ?
 
 

In the city I have been referring to in my earlier post, there had been serious talks of eliminating 16 firefighter positions from a 60 man dept. This was sparked by one or two city council members who were endorsed by some members of the five local volunteer fire departments. All within the same town of that one career department. Also strongly endorsing this cutback was a full time career union firefighter from another nearby city.
 
The final budget meeting was held last Monday evening June 6th. During the meeting the Mayor spoke ; "this is ONE City, not two and should not be divided". Apparently referring to the One Career Fire Department, separated by the Five Volunteer Depts within the same town.
 
A council member agreed that the city is "horribly divided over this fire tax issue". She said; "If we continue down this road we are going to destroy ourselves". You may remember I had mentioned earlier how the local Volunteer Fire Departments refused to call for that career dept and instead called other volunteer departments farther away and even outside this city's limits.
 
 In addition, many of the residents who reside in this area protected by those career firefighters, spoke clearly against a divided city when it comes to its fire protection.
 
The plan to eliminate those 16 career firefighter positions by some council members was to eliminate one battalion chiefs position, a fourth firefighters position for an engine company in a more congested area, and the closing of an additional engine company. The 16 positions broke down as follows. Four positions that needed to be filled, plus the closing of a three man engine company. I must give credit to the Chief of that career department. He sure did a GREAT Job presenting his facts at that earlier budget hearing. Thankfully, he was very well prepared with details to present his case and defend his budget. He was recruited from outside the state to become Chief of Department about 10 years ago. Over the last ten years he has worked very hard to try and improve the relations between the career and volunteer departments. After seeing little improvements made, I met with this career chief as a retired firefighter and resident regarding the very serious incidents that had occurred. I told him it was time to do something about it and I was going to the newspaper with my documented stories. Stories that put civilians, as well as firefighters, (both career and volunteer) at risk. In addition, in some of these cases perhaps more damage resulted as well due to much longer response times.
 
Today I am happy to report that NO career firefighters will loose their jobs. Thankfully to a Chief of Department who prepared himself very well. But no thanks to a few city politicians looking to advance their own political future and a group of frustrated volunteer firefighters who would rather see these guys loose their jobs. Thankfully, these volunteer firefighters do NOT represent ALL volunteer firefighters.
 
 The one outside career firefighter who was pushing for the elimination of those firefighters, is also a volunteer firefighter in one of those local five volunteer departments. The only person he really hurt was himself by putting himself in the middle. Now he has lost the trust of TWO departments. The one where he works and the one he tried to push for the elimination of those 16 firefighters. No doubt, his behavior will live with him for a very long time.

 
Thank you very much "Bnechis" for that information. I certainly appreciate that.
 
Thank you also to the IAFF for their donations to each of these firefighters. I am very happy to see that the Brotherhood is still alive and well.
 
As many here do, I also hope for a positive resolution to end this nightmare that these guys have been put through, as well as bring those firefighters back for the safety of all involved. 

I no more want to see the police in charge of the fire department than fire in charge of policing. Like it or not when a position of this is created, the likely appointee will come from one of the existing services, that means experience in one and not the other and probably some sort of bias.
 

I doubt that case can really be made. Up here other than Portland FD, most firefighters do not have a recruit academy, so there are a large number of volunteers who have the same FF I&II as entry level career staff. Often the VFD's give more opportunities for outside training, as their budgets can support that having little/no payroll. But that would discount the daily training regimen that most career firefighters have. My FD is a combo Fire & EMS department, our career personnel train every day, and the call personnel get the same topics (condenses) every two weeks. While we have some very capable call firefighters, the working knowledge is far different, born directly on the time spent with hands, eyes and discussion about the work. Not a slight, just a reality. Pretty difficult for a part timer of any profession to have the same overall knowledge and skills of a fulltime person of the "same" position.

 
 "AFS1970", I assume you are a career firefighter in one of Connecticuts largest cities by your location. I was also a career firefighter and it really doesn't take too long to figure out where I am talking about in my stories. My involvement with the newspaper and these stories are no secret in my area.
 
 In the statement you make about career departments not calling volunteer departments closer, you are correct. As you know, most career firefighters are required to attend that fulltime 16 week recruit school. They will not graduate if they have not proven they are capable of doing all the jobs. When those mutual aid career firefighters pull up, without any doubt, they are expected to do the job. Whether it be open a roof, do a search, bring in an additional line etc. There is no such thing as interior/exterior firefighters. When a commanding officer calls for any career firefighters he/she knows what to expect of them. If that is not accomplished, somebody will have to answer for that type of behavior. "AFS1970", I assume you also attended some type of recruit school. If not, you are the exception. Do you feel that during that time you gained a greater knowledge and confidence in performing your duties as a career firefighter today. If you were the commanding officer in charge of an incident, which department would you prefer.
 
 It was a Volunteer chief who called for a volunteer department almost four times farther away than that career dept (1.8 miles away vs 8.0 miles away). I have tried to explain why it makes sense to call a career fire dept sometimes farther away. But now I'd like someone to explain to me the reasoning for calling a volunteer fire dept farther away instead. As was the case in my true story
 
  As to the issue of the senior man becoming a pump operator or ladder operator. Generally speaking each and everyone of us, even those in the best physical condition, age takes it's toll. Chances are that senior pump operator doesn't function as well, working at peak capacity in comparison to a younger member of the department. In addition, if given the choice, most younger members would rather be inside doing the physical work rather than outside running the pump. And none of us should expect it any other way.
 
 Professional athletes are not in their peak once they hit their early or mid forty's. Just name some professional football playrers, basketball players, etc that play professional sports at that age. It just doesn't happen. Just as those sports heros are beyond their peak, so too it is with firefighters. Someone has to operate that pump and aerial ladder. Why not offer that job to the senior man where he is no longer required to hustle up flights of stairs wearing heavy gear and carrying heavy equipment even before he starts to work.,
 
  As a young firefighter, I loved doing the inside work. If I was outside pumping the rig or on the turntable of the aerial, I just felt useless. I remember my father telling me that a firefighters job is a young mans job. He was a career firefighter too. I told him, "I love this job and I'm never going to retire". He told me; "Someday you'll feel different". Not me right !!! Well after about 20-25 years I found out he was right. It was getting harder to run up those stairs. As the officer, I didn't have the option of being the pump operator at the time. This once gung ho firefighter guy who wanted to be in there doing it, was starting to feel it.
 
 If the option was there, I would have wanted to do that pump operators thing too. It is still a very necessary job and nobody can put a fire out until they get that water. That job needs to be done and generally speaking it is the perfect position for the senior member. (Including Volunteer firefighters).
 
  I hope this was of some help in trying to explain things. Just why it might be a good policy to have the senior man as pump operator and also perhaps why a career dept might call on another career dept, even if farther away than a volunteer dept. And why these might be good policies to do when all of the options are considered. 

 
Thank you very much "Bnechis" for that information. I certainly appreciate that.
 
Thank you also to the IAFF for their donations to each of these firefighters. I am very happy to see that the Brotherhood is still alive and well.
 
As many here do, I also hope for a positive resolution to end this nightmare that these guys have been put through, as well as bring those firefighters back for the safety of all involved. 

In the city I have been referring to in my earlier post, there had been serious talks of eliminating 16 firefighter positions from a 60 man dept. This was sparked by one or two city council members who were endorsed by some members of the five local volunteer fire departments. All within the same town of that one career department. Also strongly endorsing this cutback was a full time career union firefighter from another nearby city.
 
The final budget meeting was held last Monday evening June 6th. During the meeting the Mayor spoke ; "this is ONE City, not two and should not be divided". Apparently referring to the One Career Fire Department, separated by the Five Volunteer Depts within the same town.
 
A council member agreed that the city is "horribly divided over this fire tax issue". She said; "If we continue down this road we are going to destroy ourselves". You may remember I had mentioned earlier how the local Volunteer Fire Departments refused to call for that career dept and instead called other volunteer departments farther away and even outside this city's limits.
 
 In addition, many of the residents who reside in this area protected by those career firefighters, spoke clearly against a divided city when it comes to its fire protection.
 
The plan to eliminate those 16 career firefighter positions by some council members was to eliminate one battalion chiefs position, a fourth firefighters position for an engine company in a more congested area, and the closing of an additional engine company. The 16 positions broke down as follows. Four positions that needed to be filled, plus the closing of a three man engine company. I must give credit to the Chief of that career department. He sure did a GREAT Job presenting his facts at that earlier budget hearing. Thankfully, he was very well prepared with details to present his case and defend his budget. He was recruited from outside the state to become Chief of Department about 10 years ago. Over the last ten years he has worked very hard to try and improve the relations between the career and volunteer departments. After seeing little improvements made, I met with this career chief as a retired firefighter and resident regarding the very serious incidents that had occurred. I told him it was time to do something about it and I was going to the newspaper with my documented stories. Stories that put civilians, as well as firefighters, (both career and volunteer) at risk. In addition, in some of these cases perhaps more damage resulted as well due to much longer response times.
 
Today I am happy to report that NO career firefighters will loose their jobs. Thankfully to a Chief of Department who prepared himself very well. But no thanks to a few city politicians looking to advance their own political future and a group of frustrated volunteer firefighters who would rather see these guys loose their jobs. Thankfully, these volunteer firefighters do NOT represent ALL volunteer firefighters.
 
 The one outside career firefighter who was pushing for the elimination of those firefighters, is also a volunteer firefighter in one of those local five volunteer departments. The only person he really hurt was himself by putting himself in the middle. Now he has lost the trust of TWO departments. The one where he works and the one he tried to push for the elimination of those 16 firefighters. No doubt, his behavior will live with him for a very long time.

 
Thank you very much "Bnechis" for that information. I certainly appreciate that.
 
Thank you also to the IAFF for their donations to each of these firefighters. I am very happy to see that the Brotherhood is still alive and well.
 
As many here do, I also hope for a positive resolution to end this nightmare that these guys have been put through, as well as bring those firefighters back for the safety of all involved. 

When those soldiers who are standing fast are called to service they will be capable of shooting the enemy because they're all fully trained and qualified.  When these so called "fully trained exterior firefighters are called to push into a dwelling fire, he or she cannot.

 
 
I know the answer to this one Willy!  When you don't have enough actual Firefighters, you can still hit it hard from the yard!

A lot of the issue is that here in the northeast, there are so many separate fire districts each with individual leaders. Sometimes each trying to out due the other.
 
A much different case in other areas where everyone works together for one dept and under one boss. A much larger dept under the same rules for all. 
 
My home town of 40,000 people has six totally different Fire Depts  with six indepentially run operations (one career and five volunteer chiefs).  Different rules, different standards, different budgets, different equipment etc. 
 
Just spent $800,000 on buying 100 air packs. I don't think Yonkers has that many. And that was only for four of the six depts.
 
Absolutely no comparison between the operations of a large county dept verses these old school fire districts. 

If not enough certified "INTERIOR FIREFIGHTERS" show up, who gets to go in and fight the fire or conduct searches in the early stages ? What is Plan B if that's the case. ?
 
How does that affect the "Two In/Two Out Rule" ?
 
 

 
 I don't forsee any over night miracles happening. But if these guys get their jobs back and they have a very good backing from the Port Chester Volunteer Firefighters, I would say things are headed in the right direction. If I were one of those eight firefighters, and I saw a decent crowd of volunteer firefighters supporting me, I think that would mean a lot. A Real Strong Brotherhood could develop from this negative blow to the Port Chester Fire Dept.
 
  Along with that both volunteer and career firefighters would see that "for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows". I guess that's about the best way to put it. But without a doubt, a lot will be watching.
 
  I often travel along I-287 and I-95 to visit a few friends. Along my 100 plus mile trip I see hundreds of signs. But lately, the signs that say "Rye", "Port Chester" and "Harrison" have taken on new meaning. As it stands now, of a place with problems when it comes to its fire service. It sure would be nice if the next time I see those signs I could feel "there's a place so many other cities, towns or villages should follow their lead". I might even stop by and knock on the door to one of those firehouses to tell the guys what a great job you did.
 
  I very often show up knocking on the firehouse door, looking like one of those homeless guys. Asking you for some spare change. But have no fear, because "Willy D is here".

 
  And HOPEFULLY you want someone to show up that you can trust your life with. Or the life of your family. You want someone who can go inside a burning building, working at peak capacity, who is willing to risk their own life to save yours. Someone to try and save your belongings as well. Some of those belongings of which can NEVER be replaced.
 
 Are you willing to accept a 67 year old guy like myself, dressed in a firefighters costume and riding a shiny big fire truck to show up and expect me to perform a job like that. Its dangerous enough for me to climb a ladder on a nice spring day to clean out the gutters on my house. Let alone climb a ladder covered with ice in the middle of some cold winter night. All while wearing 60-80 plus pounds of extra gear.
 
 Is there a difference between someone who attended a Firefighter I class or somebody who completed a fulltime, 14-16 week, fire recruit school training ? Of course there is. And anybody involved in the fire service, should realize that.
 
Just as an EMT can save lives the same as a doctor can, the EMT was NOT required to meet the same requirements as that doctor. Does a security guard have the same training as a police officer ? No, but in each one of these positions, there is a mutual respect for each other for similar duties. There is a mutual respect and an understanding between these groups. Yet they all represent some very different training and educational requirements. They depend on each other as well.
 
 One of my best friends is a retired U.S. Army Colonel. He was in charge of the entire Army operations during 9/11 in New York City.  He has not one, but TWO Masters Degrees. Today he is also a volunteer firefighter. He really enjoys being a volunteer firefighter in a combination career/volunteer fire department. He tells me all the time how he respects career firefighters. I just can't believe the respect this guy has for any career firefighters.
 
  He is a volunteer firefighter in one of the busiest firehouses in America. Even as a Retired career firefighter, "I just can't relate to everything he's done". His service to our country and his community goes way beyond what most of us have done. Yet he is the first one who would put career firefighters at the top of his list.
 
 He is familiar with the Westchester County area as he grew up in Brooklyn. However, I don't think he is aware of what has been going on in Port Chester or Garden City.
 
 The entire group of career firefighters in that firehouse have a huge amount of respect for this guy. He respects them too of course. I know because I've been to that firehouse myself, where both career and volunteer firefighters sat at the dinner table together, talking shop and having a few laughs.
 
 "IF ONLY WE COULD BE LIKE THAT" !!!!!!!
 
 
 
 

 
 "x635", I understand. I would hope that everyone would understand that I was only trying to get some answers to a few questions I posted earlier. I hope I didn't make it appear that I was trying to throw a personnel attack. I only tried to give my explanation of the fact that "a hater I am not".
 
  I was successful in accomplishing one of my questions however, in relation to taking prior firefighter exams. I thank "FD7807" for his honesty. I know that has had some bearing on how sometimes people feel about union firefighters.  I know that from other similar situations.
 
  I was about to let my involvement with "FD7807" rest at this point anyway. I felt we had just about reached any conclusion regarding our feelings on this matter.
 
  With that said, I do appreciate the opportunity to express my views in following this very controversial issue. It is a subject that sometimes needs be adjusted to serve those who must depend on the fire service. It doesn't really matter who is right or who is wrong on here. What really matters is that all those people out there can depend on a fire service during their most desperate times. And every firefighter, both career or volunteer, has a serious role to uphold in doing that.   

Monday night we will all be watching. 
 
Will these firefighters be hired back ?
 
Will the volunteer firefighters be working with or against those firefighters ?
 
Will there be any legal action taken by those eight career firefighters by their hired attorney ? 
 
Will that attorney request for back pay and benefits as well ?
 
Will those three Fire Chiefs and/or Board Members be there to defend the decision they made ?
 
Who made and how will the statements  to damage a firefighters home play out in this decision ?
 
I guess in just a matter of hours from now, we will all find out.
 
Personally I hope for a positive outcome for those eight firefighters. I also hope for a positive and improving relationship between career and volunteer firefighters in Port Chester, NY. 

Monday night we will all be watching. 
 
Will these firefighters be hired back ?
 
Will the volunteer firefighters be working with or against those firefighters ?
 
Will there be any legal action taken by those eight career firefighters by their hired attorney ? 
 
Will that attorney request for back pay and benefits as well ?
 
Will those three Fire Chiefs and/or Board Members be there to defend the decision they made ?
 
Who made and how will the statements  to damage a firefighters home play out in this decision ?
 
I guess in just a matter of hours from now, we will all find out.
 
Personally I hope for a positive outcome for those eight firefighters. I also hope for a positive and improving relationship between career and volunteer firefighters in Port Chester, NY. 

 
 
 As I read this story, ONCE AGAIN, the innocent people suffer through no fault of their own. Poor fire department leadership is again demonstrated as the cause.
 
Unless the fire service picks leaders who are not involved in protecting their own self image, and care more about the people they are assigned to protect, this kind of story will be repeated over again.
 
Question now is;  "who will be next" ?

 
 
 As I read this story, ONCE AGAIN, the innocent people suffer through no fault of their own. Poor fire department leadership is again demonstrated as the cause.
 
Unless the fire service picks leaders who are not involved in protecting their own self image, and care more about the people they are assigned to protect, this kind of story will be repeated over again.
 
Question now is;  "who will be next" ?

 
 
 As I read this story, ONCE AGAIN, the innocent people suffer through no fault of their own. Poor fire department leadership is again demonstrated as the cause.
 
Unless the fire service picks leaders who are not involved in protecting their own self image, and care more about the people they are assigned to protect, this kind of story will be repeated over again.
 
Question now is;  "who will be next" ?

I am glad this topic came up. It tells how some firefighters are NOT impressed at all with "selfies" of firefighters in action. Maybe those "Firefighter Selfie Fans" had no idea just how foolish other firefighters look at this.
 
I have some very good friends in New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island, who are some of the most decorated firefighters in the northeast. I consider it a very special privilege to be a part of their friendship. They are the Best of the Best. Yet NOT ONE, has ever posed for a "selfie photo op" during their years. Just yesterday (6/1/2016) the FDNY had it's Medal Day where they honor those who went above and beyond. Once a year these members are rewarded and given praise for the work they've done. These members get their chance to get photos taken with their family members, the mayor, fire commissioner etc. There are a few web sites that have posted pictures of these individuals as well. But I highly doubt anyone can find any selfies posted anywhere of any one of these members in action.
 
On the contrary, there are many buffs out there who regularly take photos of firefighters in action. I know because I am one of them. Many times these buffs will take these photos and maybe post them on their own web site or even make up a copy for the firefighter in the picture. As "BIGRED1" also states above, very often a crew shot is taken after a job well done.
 
  It is the "OWN SELF IMAGE" that tends to turn off some seasoned firefighters who have been there and done that. You are expected to do a job, and it's not being a Hollywood Model.  You're in the wrong occupation if that's what you think is more important. Are you in it (career or volunteer) to help people or promote yourself.
 
 Personally, I have little use for any firefighters who use someone's misfortune to promote themselves. However, whether my vote counts or not probably really doesn't matter.  

Using pictures or videos as a recruitment campaign is perfectly acceptable. As in the above case it has worked. I would NOT consider that as a "Selfie".
 
 I would consider a "Selfie" of a firefighter posing as a more of "A Look at me kind of thing". Sort of like "yes, see I really am that hero that I wanted you to think I was".
 
I must be honest here, most firefighters who really are out there doing the job, don't need to show pictures of themselves in action. They are more concerned about doing the job and helping others than trying to impress everybody just how great they are. "Look at me, here I am - a real firefighter". To that I say; "lol".
 
Some of the most decorated firefighters out there do very little bragging about themselves. They don't pose for selfies. When you ask them about events which they really were a hero, they just write it off as being at the right place at just the right time.
 
When I look at some of these "selfies" out there involving firefighters, "I laugh". If only they knew how foolish they look in the eyes of other firefighters.
 
 Anybody got a few selfies they can share with us on here to appreciate.

Real firefighters involved in doing their job don't have time to take pictures of themselves. As the saying goes; "Don't brag about yourself, let others do it for you".

 
 
 As I read this story, ONCE AGAIN, the innocent people suffer through no fault of their own. Poor fire department leadership is again demonstrated as the cause.
 
Unless the fire service picks leaders who are not involved in protecting their own self image, and care more about the people they are assigned to protect, this kind of story will be repeated over again.
 
Question now is;  "who will be next" ?